What do Democrats see in Ocasio-Cortez?

[Shiloh Raven]

Is anyone concerned about the Democrat / Muslim connection?

No, I'm not. I'm honestly more concerned with all the conservative evangelical Christian support of a man like Donald Trump, who wouldn't have all that loyal support if he was still a liberal Democrat.

 

[kcnalp]

The people who are in favor of eroding freedoms of Americans they don't like, are the ones who would tear down what the founders valued. And yes, any American who values his country would be concerned about that.

Muslim Americans: Immigrants and U.S. born see life differently

About 73% of American Muslims say Americans are friendly to Muslims, while about 67% say Trump is unfriendly to Muslims. (which is pretty close to the actual number of Americans who express good will to Muslims)

Despite his criticism of Islam, Jefferson supported the rights of its adherents. Evidence exists that Jefferson had been thinking privately about Muslim inclusion in his new country since 1776. A few months after penning the Declaration of Independence, he returned to Virginia to draft legislation about religion for his native state, writing in his private notes a paraphrase of the English philosopher John Locke’s 1689 “Letter on Toleration”:


“(He) says neither Pagan nor Mahometan (Muslim) nor Jew ought to be excluded from the civil rights of the commonwealth because of his religion.”


The precedents Jefferson copied from Locke echo strongly in his Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, which proclaims:


“(O)ur civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions.”
Why Jefferson’s vision of American Islam matters today

No American who is worthy of living in our society favors religious discrimination.

The statute, drafted in 1777, became law in 1786 and inspired the Constitution’s “no religious test” clause and the First Amendment.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=395118588005744

 

[The Barbarian]

(American Muslims in numerous surveys favor religious tolerance)

Response:
"But look! Someone made a video! So there!"

 

[The Barbarian]

I don't think the founders cared much about the freedom, liberty and justice for the slaves since there was a Three-Fifths Compromise in the Constitution.

We often failed to live up to our lofty conception of freedom. That we frequently failed is not justification for continuing to fail.

I also don't think they cared for the treaties that were signed with the tribal nations or for the lives of all the countless Native American men, women and children who were either slaughtered in cold blood for their land or forcibly removed from their land. Let's take a moment and look at what the founding fathers thought of Native Americans.

The attitudes of Americans varied. Andrew Jackson hated them with a poisonous fury. His fellow politician, Davy Crockett openly sided with Indian rights (and lost his congressional seat as a result of Jackson's anger)

There was more diversity in culture and civilization in North America than there was in Europe at the time. The Commanches had discovered the technology of horses and were, in the early to mid-1800s, a power and expanding nation. They were pushing back the Mexicans when Anglos came to Texas. And the outcome was in doubt until the revolver was invented.

Texans hated Commanches, but they respected them. Both sides saw it as a war of extermination.

“The hunter or savage state requires a greater extent of territory to sustain it, than is compatible with the progress and just claims of civilized life, and must yield to it. Nothing is more certain, than, if the Indian tribes do not abandon that state, and become civilized, that they will decline, and become extinct. The hunter state, tho maintain’d by warlike spirits, presents but a feeble resistance to the more dense, compact, and powerful population of civilized man.” - James Monroe

Ironically, the civilizations of North American collapsed when they were struck by new diseases brought in by Europeans. The Mound Builders had farms and cities over a wide area before plagues of new diseases destroyed their civilization.

Unintentional disease was far more effective than warfare in taking down settled civilizations in North America.

If you haven't read 1491, by Charles C. Mann, it's a great read and an antidote for the story that North America was sparsely populated by hunter-gatherers at the time of Columbus.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

a political tool

 

[Shiloh Raven]

{snip} If you haven't read 1491, by Charles C. Mann, it's a great read and an antidote for the story that North America was sparsely populated by hunter-gatherers at the time of Columbus.

I haven't read that particular book but if we're recommending books to read, then I would like to recommend reading the book A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. It's an eye-opener. As another member said in reaction to this book, the United States was created from the ground up as tool to benefit White people...specifically White men...and oppress all others.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

(American Muslims in numerous surveys favor religious tolerance)

Response:
"But look! Someone made a video! So there!"

And that wins the argument apparently... Game over. Lol.

 

[Aldebaran]

No, I'm not. I'm honestly more concerned with all the conservative evangelical Christian support of a man like Donald Trump, who wouldn't have all that loyal support if he was still a liberal Democrat.

The reason they support him is because he has been supporting the same causes as evangelical Christians. He opposes abortion, he supports border security, he's attempting to balance trade deficiencies with China, etc.
Do you think they're going to support his opponents instead? Remember, he's a politician, not a religious figurehead. He ran for president, and won. If he was running for Pope, I don't think he would have won.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

In response to the above post, I would like to repeat what I posted the other day in another thread.

And the irony is that he now represents the Christian Right and the rest of the Republican Party. This is the same political party who spent eight years morally outraged and pointing their judgmental finger at Bill Clinton for being an adulterer and a womanizer. And yet here these conservatives are rallying behind a man who could rival Bill Clinton in adulterous philandering and other sinful behavior. We're hearing excuses like "Don't judge Trump for his sins!" or "Trump's sins are between him and God!" or "Who among us is without sin?" It's very curious how we never heard these particular excuses or any other excuses when Bill Clinton was still the President. We also didn't hear his sexual deviant behavior toward women being called "LOCKER ROOM BANTER" or "MACHO TALK" either. It's interesting how all that has changed within the Republican Party since Trump came along and started his pandering.

 

[Aldebaran]

In response to the above post, I would like to repeat what I posted the other day in another thread.

And the irony is that he now represents the Christian Right and the rest of the Republican Party. This is the same political party who spent eight years morally outraged and pointing their judgmental finger at Bill Clinton for being an adulterer and a womanizer. And yet here these conservatives are rallying behind a man who could rival Bill Clinton in adulterous philandering and other sinful behavior. We're hearing excuses like "Don't judge Trump for his sins!" or "Trump's sins are between him and God!" or "Who among us is without sin?" It's very curious how we never heard these particular excuses or any other excuses when Bill Clinton was still the President. We also didn't hear his sexual deviant behavior toward women being called "LOCKER ROOM BANTER" or "MACHO TALK" either. It's interesting how all that has changed within the Republican Party since Trump came along and started his pandering.

In response, I'll repost something I just posted in a different thread just a couple minutes ago. It seems relevant here.

Religious Right is more of a political stance than a spiritual decision. Those who are Christian and voting for a politician is quite limited in who their choices are, and the choice will be far from perfect when the politician is measured against Christ's standards.
To me, a Christian voting for a politician is like a vegetarian deciding whether to eat chicken or a cheeseburger for dinner when there are no other choices available. Neither one is a vegetable, so he then has to decide which one is healthier. The vegetarian would probably opt for the chicken in this case.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

In response, I'll repost something I just posted in a different thread just a couple minutes ago. It seems relevant here.

Religious Right is more of a political stance than a spiritual decision. Those who are Christian and voting for a politician is quite limited in who their choices are, and the choice will be far from perfect when the politician is measured against Christ's standards.
To me, a Christian voting for a politician is like a vegetarian deciding whether to eat chicken or a cheeseburger for dinner when there are no other choices available. Neither one is a vegetable, so he then has to decide which one is healthier. The vegetarian would probably opt for the chicken in this case.

And sadly, we have seen the negative reaction to Trump's conservative Christian voting base from both non-Christians and Christians alike. There have been news articles with titles like: "Evangelical convictions for sell," "the great Evangelical compromise," and "Evangelicals abandon their principles". There is another article that refers to Evangelical Christianity as "Toxic Christianity" and there are many other articles mocking the Christian faith of conservatives because of their support for Trump. I think it's truly sad that all these articles question the Christian faith and mock the Christian witness.

How has President Trump changed white Christians' views of 'morality'?

How could Christians support Trump’s lies? It depends on what you mean by ‘truth.’

I’m an evangelical. The religious right leaders who support Trump don’t speak for me.

Christian layman aren't the only Christians who have been called out for their support of Trump.

 

[The Barbarian]

The reason they support him is because he has been supporting the same causes as evangelical Christians.

Evangelical Christians support adultery, white nationalism, lying, and sexual assault?

Not the ones I know. Well, not most of them, anyway.

He opposes abortion,

For the moment; what did he support when he wasn't looking for evangelical votes?

he supports border security,

If so, why has he presided over a large increase in illegal immigration, and abandoned policies that led to decreases in illegal immigration? Did you really think the wall was to increase border security?

he's attempting to balance trade deficiencies with China, etc.

How has that worked out?

Record U.S. trade deficit in 2018 reflects failure of Trump’s trade policies
The U.S. Census Bureau reported that the U.S. goods trade deficit reached a record of $891.3 billion in 2018, an increase of $83.8 billion (10.4 percent). The broader goods and services deficit reached $621.0 billion in 2018, an increase of $68.8 billion (12.5 percent). The rapid growth of U.S. trade deficits reflect the failure of Trump administration trade policies, as well as the negative impacts of tax cuts and spending increases, which have sharply increased the federal budget deficit, and tightening of U.S. monetary policy, resulting in upward pressure on interest rates and the real value of the dollar.


The IMF predicts that the U.S. current account deficit—the broadest measure of U.S. trade in goods, services, and income—will nearly double between 2016 and 2022. Unless these trends are offset by a rapid decline in the value of the U.S. dollar, rapidly rising trade deficits could be devastating for U.S. manufacturing, likely giving rise to massive job loss on the scale experienced in the 2000–2007 period, when 3.5 million U.S. manufacturing jobs were lost.
Record U.S. trade deficit in 2018 reflects failure of Trump’s trade policies

Do you think they're going to support his opponents instead?

If they're serious about being Christian, I suppose they are. But the religious right has always been more far right than religious.

Remember, he's a politician, not a religious figurehead.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

For the moment; what did he support when he wasn't looking for evangelical votes?

Well, that's easy to answer.

Trump 'asked Marla Maples to abort Tiffany'

Donald Trump's 3 positions on abortion in 3 hours

Donald Trump took 5 different positions on abortion in 3 days

Donald Trump: "I'm Very Pro Choice," Partial Birth Abortion is OK

And that cartoon is another sad example of Christians being called out for their support of Trump.

 

[The Barbarian]

Beware a man who adjusts his principles for political purposes. He likely has no principles whatever.

 

[Aldebaran]

And sadly, we have seen the negative reaction to Trump's conservative Christian voting base from both non-Christians and Christians alike. There have been news articles with titles like: "Evangelical convictions for sell," "the great Evangelical compromise," and "Evangelicals abandon their principles". There is another article that refers to Evangelical Christianity as "Toxic Christianity" and there are many other articles mocking the Christian faith of conservatives because of their support for Trump. I think it's truly sad that all these articles question the Christian faith and mock the Christian witness.

How has President Trump changed white Christians' views of 'morality'?

How could Christians support Trump’s lies? It depends on what you mean by ‘truth.’

I’m an evangelical. The religious right leaders who support Trump don’t speak for me.

Christian layman aren't the only Christians who have been called out for their support of Trump.

The articles you cite are only the ones that say something negative. Of course, negativity in the Press is what attracts the most attention. Keep in mind though, he still had enough support to win the presidential election.
And as I've said before, it's not Trump's personal life or views that people voted for. It was his policies. It would be nice if people would start realizing that.

 

[Aldebaran]

Beware a man who adjusts his principles for political purposes. He likely has no principles whatever.

It was his policies that people voted for.

 

[Aldebaran]

Well, that's easy to answer.

Trump 'asked Marla Maples to abort Tiffany'

Donald Trump's 3 positions on abortion in 3 hours

Donald Trump took 5 different positions on abortion in 3 days

Donald Trump: "I'm Very Pro Choice," Partial Birth Abortion is OK

And that cartoon is another sad example of Christians being called out for their support of Trump.

Who would you have voted for in 2016 then if you could do it all over?

 

[Gigimo]

And as I've said before, it's not Trump's personal life or views that people voted for. It was his policies. It would be nice if people would start realizing that.

They do they just want to spin it into something else.

 

[Aldebaran]

They do they just want to spin it into something else.

They like to focus on his "rage tweets" (seems to be a new term now) which is something that seems to be a term that only applies to Trump.

 

[The Barbarian]

It was his policies that people voted for.

Since they change from day to day, that would be impossible.