What did Paul preach to the Corinthians?

[janxharris]

So then, if the 'us' and 'we' in v21 are believers, and believers are synonymously titled the elect, then we could read it in this way:

God made Him who had no sin to be sin for [the elect], so that in Him [the elect] might become the righteousness of God in Him.

I think this would be your view, accordingly.

The 'us' of v.21 are believers and all those that will believe (which is accessible to all men without exception).

 

[janxharris]

I guess this was overlooked.

Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
It is good news that every man has access to eternal life.

Correction: in this case had access. God looked into time and saw this guy would totally blow it. Then God created him knowing full well he'd go to hell. So you need to be honest and say "He HAD access." That is unless you're an Open Theist. Now he's alive, going to hell, and can't possibly do anything else. He has no hope. I guess you have the same problem the Calvinists do, eh?

Every man, from the perspective of when they are alive, has access to eternal life. God's knowledge that they never put their faith in Him has zero bearing on the actual choices such a man makes. God eternally knows all events, even contingent ones.

Arminians do not have the same problem as the Calvinists. For you, God compacted with Himself and did so without any recourse to a consideration of His foreknowledge of men and their deeds.

 

[janxharris]

Also overlooked:

I'm not assuming anything. I'm simply reading the verse to you bro. Those whom He called, he also justified. Are you saying 100% of humanity is justified? Because earlier you told us 100% of humanity is called.

You haven't responded to my argument.

In verse 28, Paul is talking about believers called to a 'his purpose'. Paul was talking about believers in the previous verses, and how the Spirit intercedes 'for God's people' even when they do not know what to pray for. He continues this theme in v. 28. In v. 30 the 'called' follows those that God foreknew and predestined (to be conformed to Christ-likeness).

 

[Johnnz]

Part 2 also brief due to time constraints

In a mixed community of Jewish and Gentile believers these questions would naturally arise:

For Jewish people. Where does Torah stand now? Are circumcision, sabbath etc still applicable now we are following Jesus?

For Gentile believers. Are we now meant to adopt Jewish customs and Torah? What about our holy days? Should we stop eating some foods, especially if it has been offered to an idol?

The same issues for the same reasons are present in Galatians.

In Romans 1-5 Paul essentially states the limitations and failures of Torah. It was unable to defeat death or human tendency to do wrong. In Romans 6-8 Paul sets out how Christ's death and resurrection brought an end to Torah, and now it is the life of the Spirit that achieves mastery over sin and death.

That leads to another issue. Was it fair that God chose Israel? Why did it take so long for Gentiles to hear the good news and be invited into God's family too? Romans 8:28-30 first raises this issue, then it is briefly by passed, until being more fully resumed in chapters 9-11.

From this exceedingly brief outline of Paul's line of argument we can recognise he is dealing with large concepts rather than a theology of individual salvation and sanctification, which has been the interpretative framework many of us were raised in. We must eliminate modern cultural individualism from our reading of Scripture.

What I will attempt, time permitting, is to exegete a viewpoint that sees the words 'election' and 'predestination' as referring to God's eternal purposes and how that was developed within the history of Israel. Choosing and predetermination of individual salvation was never in the mind of Paul when he wrote Romans and his other letters.

I won't debate though, as this topic would require far more time and depth than can be achieved here. Undoubtedly many will disagree, but at least there will be an alternative view for people to consider.

John
NZ

 

[janxharris]

I wish you would just refute my answers rather than ask me the same questions over and over again. I have told you and FG2 that the term "world" means "Gentiles."

"And He is the propitiation for our sins (Jews), and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (Gentiles)."

John was NOT saying that Christ was the propitiation for the sins of every human being. He was writing to Jewish believers, and he was reminding them that Jesus was the propitiation for the sins of Gentiles as well as for them. John was an apostle to the circumcision. Galatians 2:9

You know very well that I have said all this. Now refute it. Please don't ask me the same question again.

John does not specify to whom he addresses his letter.
Paul was the apostle to the gentiles but he often preached to Jews.

How can people die in their sins if their sins have been taken away?

If I give a criminal money to pay a fine so that he need not go to prison then his sentence is taken away - he is free to go. All he has to do is actually recieve the money and pay it to the court treasurer.

 

[harrisrose77]

Part 2 also brief due to time constraints

In a mixed community of Jewish and Gentile believers these questions would naturally arise:

For Jewish people. Where does Torah stand now? Are circumcision, sabbath etc still applicable now we are following Jesus?

For Gentile believers. Are we now meant to adopt Jewish customs and Torah? What about our holy days? Should we stop eating some foods, especially if it has been offered to an idol?

The same issues for the same reasons are present in Galatians.

In Romans 1-5 Paul essentially states the limitations and failures of Torah. It was unable to defeat death or human tendency to do wrong. In Romans 6-8 Paul sets out how Christ's death and resurrection brought an end to Torah, and now it is the life of the Spirit that achieves mastery over sin and death.

That leads to another issue. Was it fair that God chose Israel? Why did it take so long for Gentiles to hear the good news and be invited into God's family too? Romans 8:28-30 first raises this issue, then it is briefly by passed, until being more fully resumed in chapters 9-11.

From this exceedingly brief outline of Paul's line of argument we can recognise he is dealing with large concepts rather than a theology of individual salvation and sanctification, which has been the interpretative framework many of us were raised in. We must eliminate modern cultural individualism from our reading of Scripture.

What I will attempt, time permitting, is to exegete a viewpoint that sees the words 'election' and 'predestination' as referring to God's eternal purposes and how that was developed within the history of Israel. Choosing and predetermination of individual salvation was never in the mind of Paul when he wrote Romans and his other letters.

I won't debate though, as this topic would require far more time and depth than can be achieved here. Undoubtedly many will disagree, but at least there will be an alternative view for people to consider.

John
NZ

Thank God for you. I agree on all points entirely.

 

[janxharris]

1 Corinthians 15:11
Whether, then it is they or I, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.​

Paul does not explicitly say that he restricts such preaching to believers. Indeed, he says that the Corinthians believed what he preached. In Romans 15:20-21, Paul says:

It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation. Rather, as it is written: “Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand.”​

To suggest Paul preached a different gospel to unbelievers from that which he recapitulated to believers is unfounded.

 

[harrisrose77]

1 Corinthians 15:11
Whether, then it is they or I, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.​

Paul does not explicitly say that he restricts such preaching to believers. Indeed, he says that the Corinthians believed what he preached. In Romans 15:20-21, Paul says:

It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation. Rather, as it is written: “Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand.”​

To suggest Paul preached a different gospel to unbelievers from that which he recapitulated to believers is unfounded.[/QUOTE

 

[Hammster]

You haven't responded to my argument.

In verse 28, Paul is talking about believers called to a 'his purpose'. Paul was talking about believers in the previous verses, and how the Spirit intercedes 'for God's people' even when they do not know what to pray for. He continues this theme in v. 28. In v. 30 the 'called' follows those that God foreknew and predestined (to be conformed to Christ-likeness).

So you're saying that God only calls those He foreknows and predestines?

 

[Hammster]

1 Corinthians 15:11
Whether, then it is they or I, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.​

Paul does not explicitly say that he restricts such preaching to believers. Indeed, he says that the Corinthians believed what he preached. In Romans 15:20-21, Paul says:

It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation. Rather, as it is written: “Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand.”​

To suggest Paul preached a different gospel to unbelievers from that which he recapitulated to believers is unfounded.

No one has said that Paul preached a different gospel to unbelievers. To suggest that we have either means that you've completely not understood what we have been saying, or you know your argument is weak and you are now reduced to building straw men.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

The 'us' of v.21 are believers and all those that will believe (which is accessible to all men without exception).

So... the elect. So Jesus became sin for the elect, that they might become the righteousness of God in Him. Correct?

 

[guuila]

Every man, from the perspective of when they are alive, has access to eternal life. God's knowledge that they never put their faith in Him has zero bearing on the actual choices such a man makes. God eternally knows all events, even contingent ones.

Arminians do not have the same problem as the Calvinists. For you, God compacted with Himself and did so without any recourse to a consideration of His foreknowledge of men and their deeds.

So if God knows a person won't believe, and then creates them anyway, they have access to eternal life once they're born? Either you're grossly confused, or being dishonest, or inconsistent, or you're an Open Theist. Not sure what it is.

 

[guuila]

The text does not explicitly state that 'world' means 'elect' or 'believers'. John chose to use 'kosmos' for a reason.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcomea it.

6There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

'World' here means 'creation' in general, but specifically to all humanity on earth.

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Meanings: created world, created world, humanity.

11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15(John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

19Now this was John’s testimony when the Jewish leadersc in Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Messiah.”

21They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”

He said, “I am not.”

“Are you the Prophet?”

He answered, “No.”

22Finally they said, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”

23John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’”

24Now the Pharisees who had been sent 25questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”

26“I baptize withe water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. 27He is the one who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

28This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In view of the definitions of 'world' thus far, I cannot see why we should necessarily suddenly infer that John means 'elect'.

B. F. Westcott
"The fundamental idea of kosmos in St. John is that of the sum of created being which belongs to the sphere of human life as an ordered whole, considered apart from God....the world comes to represent humanity in its fallen state, alienated from its Maker."

John Calvin says of this verse: "He uses the word sin in the singular number for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says the sin of the world, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race."

Ryle similarly states: "Christ is...a Savior for all mankind....He did not suffer for a few persons only, but for all mankind....What Christ took away, and bore on the cross, was not the sin of certain people only, but the whole accumulated mass of all the sins of all the children of Adam....I hold as strongly as anyone that Christ's death is profitable to none but the elect who believe in His Name. But I dare not limit and pare down such expressions as the one before us....I dare not confine the intention of redemption to the saints alone. Christ is for every man....The atonement was made for all the world, though it is applied and enjoyed by none but believers."

I'm not debating you about any specific text here. I'm simply trying to get you to acknowledge that kosmos can mean elect. I don't care what some guys thought. The Greek lexicon says kosmos can mean elect. I guess in order to support your traditions you feel the need to redefine the Greek language.

 

[guuila]

You haven't responded to my argument.

In verse 28, Paul is talking about believers called to a 'his purpose'. Paul was talking about believers in the previous verses, and how the Spirit intercedes 'for God's people' even when they do not know what to pray for. He continues this theme in v. 28. In v. 30 the 'called' follows those that God foreknew and predestined (to be conformed to Christ-likeness).

Okay. Not sure why you were telling us 100% of humanity is called earlier.

 

[Epiphoskei]

If I give a criminal money to pay a fine so that he need not go to prison then his sentence is taken away - he is free to go. All he has to do is actually recieve the money and pay it to the court treasurer.

Christ did not give criminals the means to pay for their sins. He ended their sins.

 

[janxharris]

A summary:

1 Corinthians 15:11
Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

To maintain consistency, Calvinists must assume that that which Paul and the other apostles preached was:
A) only intended for believers;
B) only intended for the elect;
C) a modification of the gospel outlined in vv. 3b-4.

A) cannot be true because Paul never guarded against it - on the contrary, it was his ambition:

Romans 15:20-21
It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation. Rather, as it is written: “Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand.”

In Acts there are many examples of the apostles preaching to unbelievers. Here is just one:

Acts 8:9-13
Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, “This man is rightly called the Great Power of God.” They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his sorcery. But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

Paul allows for the possibility that the gospel he specifies in vv. 3b-4 might be heard by unbelievers in the Corinthian church:

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Paul also says in v.11, that 'this is what you believed.'

B) cannot be true because we do not know who the elect are.

Finally, C) cannot be true because Paul never even hints at such a modification.

Whilst Calvinism demands that the gospel outlined by Paul in vv. 3b-4 is not to be preached to unbelievers, Paul himself had no such concerns.

 

[janxharris]

So you're saying that God only calls those He foreknows and predestines?

No.

 

[Hammster]

No.

Well, that's what it looked like.

 

[janxharris]

No one has said that Paul preached a different gospel to unbelievers. To suggest that we have either means that you've completely not understood what we have been saying, or you know your argument is weak and you are now reduced to building straw men.

Really? Fine. You preach a different gospel Hammster - for you corrected mine which, in essence, is Paul's.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7787859-69/#post64553419:

We (you Hammster and I) are walking together down the street. We see a vagrant sitting in a shop doorway and I say to him:

Hi there, you look cold. Can I buy you a sandwich? Yes? Okay, I will, but before I do, I just wanted to share with you, if you don't mind, the good news of Jesus Christ - is that okay with you? (Vagrant nods). Great - well the good news is that Jesus Christ died for our sins on the cross and on the third day after his burial, he rose again from the dead. This is, indeed, good news for all mankind because he defeated the curse of death...and that is something we can all relate to don't you think? All he asks is that we put our faith in him so that we might have eternal life. Anyway, I wont bother you further...except to give you this pamphlet which is a reminder of what I have just said - with some details of all the local churches. I will get that sandwich...
Do you correct me, or not?​

http://www.christianforums.com/t7787859-75/#post64559293:

Me:

Your theology demands that you in fact do correct me. Why do you disagree?

You:
I'm correcting you now. But I wouldn't in front of him. It's not your words or mine that will regenerate him. The Spirit can use a poorly presented gospel.

 

[janxharris]

So... the elect. So Jesus became sin for the elect, that they might become the righteousness of God in Him. Correct?

19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.