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What did Paul preach to the Corinthians?

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G

guuila

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Also overlooked:

You assume that the 'called' are unbelievers unto belief.

Romans 8
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.​

In verse 28, Paul is talking about believers called to a 'his purpose'. Paul was talking about believers in the previous verses, and how the Spirit intercedes 'for God's people' even when they do not know what to pray for. He continues this theme in v. 28. In v. 30 the 'called' follows those that God foreknew and predestined (to be conformed to Christ-likeness).

I'm not assuming anything. I'm simply reading the verse to you bro. Those whom He called, he also justified. Are you saying 100% of humanity is justified? Because earlier you told us 100% of humanity is called.
 
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Johnnz

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This debate would have utterly perplexed Paul and the Corinthian believers. Without a pre-existing grid of predestination and their broader understanding Of Christ's mission this debate would have sailed right past them.

John
NZ
 
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Jack Terrence

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Where does it say in John 1 that 'world' means 'believers' or 'the elect'?

Why would John 8:24 not make sense?
I wish you would just refute my answers rather than ask me the same questions over and over again. I have told you and FG2 that the term "world" means "Gentiles."

"And He is the propitiation for our sins (Jews), and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (Gentiles)."

John was NOT saying that Christ was the propitiation for the sins of every human being. He was writing to Jewish believers, and he was reminding them that Jesus was the propitiation for the sins of Gentiles as well as for them. John was an apostle to the circumcision. Galatians 2:9

You know very well that I have said all this. Now refute it. Please don't ask me the same question again.

How can people did in their sins if their sins have been taken away?
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Hammster

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This debate would have utterly perplexed Paul and the Corinthian believers. Without a per-existing grid of predestination and their broader understanding Of Christ's mission this debate would have sailed right past them.

John
NZ

Thanks for that opinion.
 
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Jack Terrence

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The Boxer
Furthermore, the Galatians were child-heirs (minors) before they had come to faith in Christ. By faith they became [adult] Sons. 4:1-6

janxharris
Read it. Paul said that ther HEIR as long as he is a CHILD differs nothing from a servant until the apointed time of the father. After the father appoints the time the CHILD-HEIR becomes an ADULT SON.

Then Paul said,

EVEN SO we, when we were CHILDREN [MINORS], were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as [ADULT] SONS.

The Galatians had always been CHILD-HEIRS. They had always been God's children, but they were MINORS and had the same status as a servant. The NIV says, "when were UNDERAGE."

But when the appointed time had come God sent forth His Son to redeem them and by faith in Him they became ADULT SONS.

Paul said that they became ADULT SONS through faith in Christ Jesus. 3:26
 
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Johnnz

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Also overlooked:

I'm not assuming anything. I'm simply reading the verse to you bro. Those whom He called, he also justified. Are you saying 100% of humanity is justified? Because earlier you told us 100% of humanity is called.

Paul wrote to a specific congregation of believers, those who were now Jesus followers. You cannot extrapolate from that context to refer to a statement about the rest of humanity from what Paul did say. That's like arguing

My cat is grey
Some cats are blind
Therefore all grey cats are blind

John
NZ
 
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Hammster

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Paul wrote to a specific congregation of believers, those who were now Jesus followers. You cannot extrapolate from that context to refer to a statement about the rest of humanity from what Paul did say. That's like arguing

My cat is grey
Some cats are blind
Therefore all grey cats are blind

John
NZ

I would be interested in your explanation of Romans 8:28-30 using the above standard.
 
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G

guuila

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Paul wrote to a specific congregation of believers, those who were now Jesus followers. You cannot extrapolate from that context to refer to a statement about the rest of humanity from what Paul did say. That's like arguing

My cat is grey
Some cats are blind
Therefore all grey cats are blind

John
NZ

So you believe God no longer calls people? And it's not at all like arguing that silly syllogism you threw together. That was a total non sequitur.

A more appropriate analogy would be to say it's as though I'm taking an email written to a specific person and context and trying to apply it to myself in a different context when the author of the email had no intention of that. Even if you used a more fitting analogy like that, you'd still be wrong.
 
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Epiphoskei

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Acts 13:38 & 46
“Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you." (Said to a synagogue of Jews and Gentiles).

Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 15:11b
This is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

Completely irrelevant to the conversation we're having.


So Jesus' sacrifice was unnecessary?

Acts 13:39
Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.
Exactly how do you understand the relationship between the sacrificial system of the Old Testament and Christ's offering if not one of prefigurement?


Yes, all men without exception.
If Isaiah 53 is about all men without exception, you're a universalist.
 
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Johnnz

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If Isaiah 53 is about all men without exception, you're a universalist.

Not at all. A complete sacrifice does not entail all chose to accept it. Paul argues that not all Israel is part of God's covenant people. People chose.

John
NZ
 
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Johnnz

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I would be interested in your explanation of Romans 8:28-30 using the above standard.

I will try and get a brief response, if I can find some time.

To begin briefly, those verses are part of a consecutive argument that begins at Romans 1:18 and goes right through to 15:13. The central issue is where does the Jewish heritage fit in now that Gentiles belong to the new covenant community. That issues frames virtually all of the letter to the Roman church.

More later, maybe.

John
NZ
 
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janxharris

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When it says that Christ took away the sins of the world, did the author intend for you to conclude that nobody has any sins leftover to be paid for, and thus nobody can possibly go to hell?

If not, then you can't use this verse to support your own soteriology, either. And you certainly can't use it to refute Limited Atonement.

Just to clarify - it is 'sin' and not 'sins'.

I cannot offer, at present, a meaningful response to your valid question.

Some thoughts:

It is possible that those who remain in unbelief are guilty of the the unforgivable sin - that of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

What about the curse of original sin? Perhaps John partly refers to this in Jn 1:29.

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
 
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janxharris

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j316.jpg


Please acknowledge your error. I'm getting tired of correcting it.

The text does not explicitly state that 'world' means 'elect' or 'believers'. John chose to use 'kosmos' for a reason.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcomea it.

6There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

'World' here means 'creation' in general, but specifically to all humanity on earth.

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Meanings: created world, created world, humanity.

11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15(John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

19Now this was John’s testimony when the Jewish leadersc in Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Messiah.”

21They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”

He said, “I am not.”

“Are you the Prophet?”

He answered, “No.”

22Finally they said, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”

23John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’”

24Now the Pharisees who had been sent 25questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”

26“I baptize withe water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. 27He is the one who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

28This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In view of the definitions of 'world' thus far, I cannot see why we should necessarily suddenly infer that John means 'elect'.

B. F. Westcott
"The fundamental idea of kosmos in St. John is that of the sum of created being which belongs to the sphere of human life as an ordered whole, considered apart from God....the world comes to represent humanity in its fallen state, alienated from its Maker."

John Calvin says of this verse: "He uses the word sin in the singular number for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says the sin of the world, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race."

Ryle similarly states: "Christ is...a Savior for all mankind....He did not suffer for a few persons only, but for all mankind....What Christ took away, and bore on the cross, was not the sin of certain people only, but the whole accumulated mass of all the sins of all the children of Adam....I hold as strongly as anyone that Christ's death is profitable to none but the elect who believe in His Name. But I dare not limit and pare down such expressions as the one before us....I dare not confine the intention of redemption to the saints alone. Christ is for every man....The atonement was made for all the world, though it is applied and enjoyed by none but believers."
 
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