What did Jesus know?

[~Anastasia~]

I hope I can figure out how to ask this question. I've been thinking about the two natures of Christ, one essence. "Without change becoming human ... " Several things that speak of the Nature of Christ and trying to fit it all together, and it made me wonder.

And I have heard debates from various denominational Christians about the divine attributes of Christ in the Incarnation.

Does the Church or any of the theologians have a teaching about what Jesus the human person knew? Did the child Jesus know Who He was? Did He have access to Divine knowledge as a man, or did He purposely limit all of His abilities while human?

Thanks very much.

 

[ArmyMatt]

He knew as a man what He Divinely willed to know, since His human mind totally submitted to the Divine Mind.

 

[truefiction1]

I hope I can figure out how to ask this question. I've been thinking about the two natures of Christ, one essence. "Without change becoming human ... " Several things that speak of the Nature of Christ and trying to fit it all together, and it made me wonder.

And I have heard debates from various denominational Christians about the divine attributes of Christ in the Incarnation.

Does the Church or any of the theologians have a teaching about what Jesus the human person knew? Did the child Jesus know Who He was? Did He have access to Divine knowledge as a man, or did He purposely limit all of His abilities while human?

Thanks very much.

Yes, the Church teaches that Jesus is one person in two natures. In the incarnation, the humanity is understood to be a nature that is added to the person of the Word. There are not two persons, so the one person of Jesus knows Who He is, as a child and as a teen and as a man. He did, however, assume the ability to experience the defects of human nature that is shared by our common humanity (such as hunger, fatigue, thirst, pain, etc.) even though in His perfect human nature this isn't necessary. Jesus is perfect in His sinless humanity and is not subject to human suffering by any necessity. Rather, He chooses (in an act of Divine will) to subject Himself to things which for Him are not natural.

Some of the recent television productions about the life of Jesus depict Him as eventually coming to a realization of His Divine identity over time. This is not Orthodox.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you both.

It seems even if one is sola scriptura, it's difficult to imagine Jesus as being "in the dark". I was thinking the other day about Him being in the temple at 12 years old, impressing the Rabbis, and claiming He had to be "in His Father's house".

It seems the passage where He says He doesn't know the time of His second coming is the cause of a lot of assuming about His lack of knowledge.

BUT on the other hand, yes He clearly chose to experience hunger, thirst, and other human weaknesses ...

 

[truefiction1]

Thank you both.

It seems even if one is sola scriptura, it's difficult to imagine Jesus as being "in the dark". I was thinking the other day about Him being in the temple at 12 years old, impressing the Rabbis, and claiming He had to be "in His Father's house".

It seems the passage where He says He doesn't know the time of His second coming is the cause of a lot of assuming about His lack of knowledge.

BUT on the other hand, yes He clearly chose to experience hunger, thirst, and other human weaknesses ...

I imagine that when Jesus feigned ignorance about the exact time of the second coming, he spoke to what is proper for a human to know. As the Word, however, through whom the consummation of the ages is passed, of course He knew. St. Athanasius the Great understood it this way.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I imagine that when Jesus feigned ignorance about the exact time of the second coming, he spoke to what is proper for a human to know. As the Word, however, through whom the consummation of the ages is passed, of course He knew. St. Athanasius the Great understood it this way.

this. also in His Divinity, He has one mind with the Father. His human mind did not know, because it was perfectly submitted to the Divine mind.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you both. I wasn't sure if there was a kind of standard position about that passage. I've seen quite a bit of debate (even among Orthodox) elsewhere.

Thanks again.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Thank you both.

It seems the passage where He says He doesn't know the time of His second coming is the cause of a lot of assuming about His lack of knowledge.

Kylissa, Yeshua (Jesus) chose to follow His Father's will. The second coming is a marriage between Yeshua and His faithful, the marriage supper of The Lamb. He knew perfectly what was to occur. You see, in Jewish marriage custom, The bride and groom would be betrothed or engaged. The bride would next partake of a Mikveh, or cleansing bath. Mikveh is the same word used for baptism. There would be a "bride's price" and a contract. Yeshua gave His life and the contract is the new covenant. Every time we celebrate Passover (Pascha) we do it as a memorial until He comes for us. Yeshua said that He would not partake of the fruit of the vine until He partakes of it new in His Father's House (Kingdom) during the marriage Feast of The Lamb. If the bride price was agreeable, the groom would pour a cup of wine for the bride. If the bride drank the wine, it would indicate her acceptance of the proposal. At this point, they would be betrothed. Betrothal was legally binding, just like a marriage. During a typical betrothal, the bride and bridegroom each would be preparing for the marriage and wouldn't see each other.

The groom would then go back to his father's house to build a bridal chamber for his bride. "In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am" (John 13:1-3). The father would then inspect it and ONLY THEN would he allow the son to return to accept the bride and become "married". So only the father would know. While the bridegroom was preparing the wedding chamber, the bride was considered to be consecrated, set apart or "bought with a price". If she went out, she would wear a veil so others would know she was betrothed. During this time she prepared herself for the marriage. She wouldn't know when her groom would come for her, so she always had to be ready. Since bridegrooms typically came for their brides in the middle of the night, to "steal them away", the bride would have to have her lamp ready at all times (parable of the 10 virgins). Just as the bridegroom would come for the bride in the middle of the night, with a shout and the sound of a shofar (ram's horn trumpet), so the Lord will come for us. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of
God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). We do know that since Yeshua came and fulfilled the spring Moedim (Feasts) that He is likely to return during the fall feasts. Shalom

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you both. I wasn't sure if there was a kind of standard position about that passage. I've seen quite a bit of debate (even among Orthodox) elsewhere.

Thanks again.

it's funny because this actually came up in class today. when Christ emptied Himself, He chose to have our weaknesses, including ignorance to the Second Coming. sorta like how the He Who fashioned the universe, still had to learn carpentry from His stepfather

 

[truefiction1]

it's funny because this actually came up in class today. when Christ emptied Himself, He chose to have our weaknesses, including ignorance to the Second Coming. sorta like how the He Who fashioned the universe, still had to learn carpentry from His stepfather

The human mind, even the perfect human mind, is still a human mind and therefor limited in capacity for knowing and dependent upon certain progressive processes for learning. These limitations in His humanity, according to Orthodox Tradition, the Word of the Father chose to endure for our sake. The Scripture also gives a clear teaching of this "kenosis" (self-emptying) endured by the Word (Philippians 2:5-11).

On a side note, I've found that a lot of very funny things happen to people in the Church. Not funny in a laughable manner, but funny strange.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I imagine that when Jesus feigned ignorance about the exact time of the second coming, he spoke to what is proper for a human to know. As the Word, however, through whom the consummation of the ages is passed, of course He knew. St. Athanasius the Great understood it this way.

St. John Chrysostom had that opinion about it, too.

 

[Kristos]

Jack

 

[Cappadocious]

There's a reason why the Byzantines removed "nor the Son" from the Scriptures in some of their textual variants.

Sometimes the Gospel doesn't square well with Plotinus. Clearly much better to call Christ a liar and edit the Scriptures to conform with Monophysite theology.

 

[Kristos]

God is quite the trickster...always deceiving us for our own good.

 

[jckstraw72]

There's a reason why the Byzantines removed "nor the Son" from the Scriptures in some of their textual variants.

Sometimes the Gospel doesn't square well with Plotinus. Clearly much better to call Christ a liar and edit the Scriptures to conform with Monophysite theology.

could you say more about this?

or what about when Christ on the Cross cries "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" -- was it really possible that the Word could be literally forsaken by the Father?

 

[Cappadocious]

I think Christ really experienced that on the cross even as he was in the bosom of the Father.

The monophysites believe that such mysteries, because they seem contradictory, imply division. This is because they place the oneness of Plotinus over the power of the living God. Their god cannot be affected by grief and omnipotent, weary yet untiring, circumscribed and limitless (we Orthodox, by contrast, have a whole icon dedicated to this btw).

This is what St. Irenaeus, St. John Chrysostom, St. Eutychius of Constantinople, St. Maximus and others had to do battle with.

"You say christ didn't know? Well either he knew or he didn't or you're a Nestorian!"

And they fill in one another's Plotinus-influenced gaps quite well (although irenaeus was before Plotinus, and his stuff is great probably in part because of this)

 

[truefiction1]

I think Christ really experienced that on the cross even as he was in the bosom of the Father.

The monophysites believe that such mysteries, because they seem contradictory, imply division. This is because they place the oneness of Plotinus over the power of the living God. Their god cannot be affected by grief and omnipotent, weary yet untiring, circumscribed and limitless (we Orthodox, by contrast, have a whole icon dedicated to this btw).

This is what St. Irenaeus, St. John Chrysostom, St. Eutychius of Constantinople, St. Maximus and others had to do battle with.

"You say christ didn't know? Well either he knew or he didn't or you're a Nestorian!"

And they fill in one another's Plotinus-influenced gaps quite well (although irenaeus was before Plotinus, and his stuff is great probably in part because of this)

One person in two natures. The one Divine nature which is without limitation or change. The human nature that Christ, by willing it, is subjected to limitation and change. It is precisely possible for a human nature to experience a loss of communion with Divine Life. That is what occurred on the cross and is expressed with "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" God the Word was able to experience such a thing by virtue of the humanity that he had added to His person. He was also able, because "the Word became flesh" to not comprehend certain matters, a limitation that is natural to a limited capacity of human comprehension. It is not possible for man to rationally comprehend God's providence. Since the exact times are determined in Divine ways that are beyond the reach of human capacity for comprehending, a man cannot know exactly what will happen, when it will happen, or why it will happen. There are even answers that our minds cannot even formulate questions for, because these minds of ours are not designed thus. The Divine nature owned by Christ remains always in the "bosom of the Father". The human nature assumed by the Word and the limitations willingly endured are also a natural property that is owned by the Word. Hence, the Word is capable of all knowledge and of human ignorance because existing in both Divine and human natures. The Word became flesh while also remaining Divine. The Word can experience limitations of a human creature because He became one and chose to experience all that the others of our species do, even loss of communion and death.

 

[Cappadocious]

One person in two natures.

Sounds good.

He was also able, because "the Word became flesh" to not comprehend certain matters, a limitation that is natural to a limited capacity of human comprehension. It is not possible for man to rationally comprehend God's providence. Since the exact times are determined in Divine ways that are beyond the reach of human capacity for comprehending, a man cannot know exactly what will happen, when it will happen, or why it will happen. There are even answers that our minds cannot even formulate questions for, because these minds of ours are not designed thus. The Divine nature owned by Christ remains always in the "bosom of the Father". The human nature assumed by the Word and the limitations willingly endured are also a natural property that is owned by the Word. Hence, the Word is capable of all knowledge and of human ignorance because existing in both Divine and human natures. The Word became flesh while also remaining Divine. The Word can experience limitations of a human creature because He became one and chose to experience all that the others of our species do, even loss of communion and death.

Truefiction, although this was confessed in an imperfect form even by the great non-Chalcedonian theologian Severus of Antioch, many in our church today resist it due to large-scale misunderstandings of the Fathers. There are even some that equate any sense of Christ being ignorant with the confession of the Agnoetae, who seemed to have confessed him to be flatly ignorant or, to use theological terms, ignorant simpliciter.

 

[~Anastasia~]

All I can say is that this has given me things to think about. I thank you all. I think I have more questions than answers.

It complicated matters by bringing up the lack of knowledge, or not, of the timing of the Second Coming - yet I think that is important. I've heard others say that Christ outright lied (which just cannot sit well with me) and several other positions as well.


I need to find time to refresh on some of those theologies to even be sure I follow exactly what's being said.

So should "nor the Son" be in the Scriptures, or not?

 

[truefiction1]

There is difference between human and Divine minds. In Christ there is both. One is limited, the other omnipotent. We cannot comprehend what it is to have a Divine mind. How much more shall we comprehend how a person can possess both, and what that may be like? We do know that that human mind is not the Divine mind. There is no basis by which anyone can resist the real human nature in Christ, except to confuse it with Divine nature of the Word. There is a difference, and the two natures remain distinct and perfectly in tact in their connection with the Person of the Word.