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Featured What church calls leadership is a corrupt theology

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Alithis, Mar 29, 2019.

  1. HatGuy

    HatGuy Some guy in a hat

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    While I'm all for non-institutionalism and de-institutionalising the church, I find it a leap to far to say that meeting on a Sunday is suddenly a system of control.

    You've probably worded this incorrectly, or are barking up the wrong tree.
     
  2. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Welcome to the home church!
    Blessings
     
  3. Justified112

    Justified112 Well-Known Member

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    Not true. Most pastors work a 40 hour week job and many don't take a salary from their churches. You really have no idea what a church really is.

    No Christian should be against going to church on Sunday or any other day, as it is a time to gather and fellowship with each other and pray for each other. It is a chance to minister to one another and to those visitors who walk through the door.
     
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  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    and the New Testament.
     
  5. Justified112

    Justified112 Well-Known Member

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    No, that is not what we gather from the story of Simon Magus. Offering money for the anointing has absolutely nothing to do with helping a pastor financially.
    #1, that is not what Paul said: "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. (1Ti 5:17-18) That passage has long been understood as an allowance for the financial support of a pastor or other minister.


    The first five chapters of Acts do not make any case at all against paying a pastor or other minister.
    One of the hazards of being a bi-vocational pastor is that the pastor isn't always available when he is needed. He is the servant of a secular company that needs him on a regular basis for a job. He isn't free to visit and minister during the week. He barely has time to prepare for Sunday. He has to juggle a church, a family and a secular job, and all are vying for his time. And somewhere in the middle of all of that, he has to find time to sleep.

    If he sacrifices time on the job, asks for too many days off for ministry purposes, he will lose that job because his boss needs him on the job and if he can't be there, he will fire the pastor and then the pastor has nothing. So, there are some advantages to taking a salary at the church so that it frees up the pastor to be the pastor and to be a father to his family.
     
  6. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This starts with the "church planter", Pastor. After a short time he/she is forced to adhere to the law.
    In the US, the system is under government control through the "not for profit" system, a 501c3 status. There are regulations and requirements that need to be followed which forces the group to organize in a certain way. The Pastor is the CEO or Executive Director , legally speaking. There is also a need for a Board of Directors which can be called the Elders. This is ONLY if they want to collect money for the congregation...and there is the root of the problem, money. Preaching for profit was never taught in scripture however sustaining the Pastors and Elders is. This system has been certainly abused. Once thought to help the sector, it is often abused to line the pockets of the church planter. But this is not the case all the time.
     
  7. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Well-Known Member

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    You should learn the History of Christianity.
     
  8. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    1 Corinthians 9:14
    So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel
     
  9. Archivist

    Archivist Senior Veteran Supporter

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    You are making a blanket statement that is not always true. In my church (ELCA) the pastor is not the CEO.
     
  10. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your congregation is under a larger umbrella. It will still work the same way. Such as The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA).
     
  11. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    This is a twice dead horse. What is in the Church now is wirchcraft, and people don't realize they are under a spell because they don't believe in what is exploiting them.

    We could blame the leadership, but they are doing exactly what they are supposed to do - exploit the people to the point that (hopefully) they come to a conviction. These leaders have them obeying government before the Most High God, and worshipping gods and idols without their knowledge. It is sickening, but the painful part is telling someone and realizing the defensive reaction.

    Every man is responsible for the trajectory of their own soul; everyone with eyes will see, and everyone with years will hear. The others are at the mercy of the Most High God.
     
  12. lismore

    lismore Legend

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    I believe Athilis is speaking very forcefully against something that many believers have experienced.

    When a church leader or church system, not called or ordained by God, perpetuates spiritual or financial abuse in the lives of believers. I have experienced it.

    This can happen in many churches, many denominations. Some I believe operate on systemic abuse of the sheep.

    Ezekiel 34 speaks directly to this very problem.

    IMO we should listen to and help believers caught up in this. I believe the ultimate solution is when the Lord returns, the temporary solution, help the believer to move to pastures new.

    God Bless
     
  13. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Really? I am not aware this in normative. Is this the case in your denomination? That would be refreshing.
     
  14. lismore

    lismore Legend

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    I have experienced both, a pastor who does a 40 hr week and a pastor who does a one hour week. God Bless :)
     
  15. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    Where the Most High God, or the Word of God Himself say that we should obey and submit to our leaders when they are taking advantage of us, and leading us astray?

    Paul is talking about righteous leadership - responsible leadership that watches over your soul, not a budget or nation.
     
  16. Archivist

    Archivist Senior Veteran Supporter

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    No, the pastor is not the CEO. Don't tell me how it works, I have served on Church Council for numerous years including several as president.
     
  17. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am not telling you how your church works, I am telling the OP how a 501c3 operates. All churches who take in donations have this status. I was also referring to the original "church planter" which covers many non-denominational entities. Anyway, I hope that clears things.
    Blessings
     
  18. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    You. Are adding your own interpretation into the text. It has no caveats like you say. Both Paul and Peter said to submit to the governing authorities, and that was Nero at the time, who loved to feed Christians to the lions.
     
  19. Archivist

    Archivist Senior Veteran Supporter

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    No, you said that 501c3 makes the pastor the CEO. It does not.
     
  20. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you want to think then, then you go right ahead.

    The vast majority of Christians of all types during the last 2000 or so say you're wrong.

    Or is it just to you the word of God has come now?
     
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