What church calls leadership is a corrupt theology

HatGuy

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The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money.

It does two things JESUS said are NOT to be so.

It exercises dominion OVER people
And Lords it over people.

Jesus said that is the ways of the gentile
Heathen to exercise authority and lord it over.. But with YOU...it is not so.

Yet the entire sunday and saturday system is based upon a theology that opposes the words of JESUS.
While I'm all for non-institutionalism and de-institutionalising the church, I find it a leap to far to say that meeting on a Sunday is suddenly a system of control.

You've probably worded this incorrectly, or are barking up the wrong tree.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money.

It does two things JESUS said are NOT to be so.

It exercises dominion OVER people
And Lords it over people.

Jesus said that is the ways of the gentile
Heathen to exercise authority and lord it over.. But with YOU...it is not so.

Yet the entire sunday and saturday system is based upon a theology that opposes the words of JESUS.
Welcome to the home church!
Blessings
 
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Justified112

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The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money.

It does two things JESUS said are NOT to be so.

It exercises dominion OVER people
And Lords it over people.

Jesus said that is the ways of the gentile
Heathen to exercise authority and lord it over.. But with YOU...it is not so.

Yet the entire sunday and saturday system is based upon a theology that opposes the words of JESUS.
Not true. Most pastors work a 40 hour week job and many don't take a salary from their churches. You really have no idea what a church really is.

No Christian should be against going to church on Sunday or any other day, as it is a time to gather and fellowship with each other and pray for each other. It is a chance to minister to one another and to those visitors who walk through the door.
 
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Justified112

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Have you noticed the sharp rebuke that Simon Magus got in Acts 8. He offered money for the anointing.
I see a clear message in this - there should never have been renumeration for spiritual service.
No, that is not what we gather from the story of Simon Magus. Offering money for the anointing has absolutely nothing to do with helping a pastor financially.
Support any person who lives sacrificially in service for Jesus but never for a wage. This immediately links the spiritual with the commercial. As Jesus demonstrated with anger in the temple there is no place for this.
#1, that is not what Paul said: "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. (1Ti 5:17-18) That passage has long been understood as an allowance for the financial support of a pastor or other minister.


This is such a fundamental and universal error in Church structure and leads to all manner of compromise. I fully support giving voluntarily to those fruitfully serving but the minute they are paid we have a business and that flies in the face of the heart of Love enjoyed by the early church in Acts. It is no wonder that the first 5 chapters of Acts are rarely preached because the message is not practiced.

The first five chapters of Acts do not make any case at all against paying a pastor or other minister.
One of the hazards of being a bi-vocational pastor is that the pastor isn't always available when he is needed. He is the servant of a secular company that needs him on a regular basis for a job. He isn't free to visit and minister during the week. He barely has time to prepare for Sunday. He has to juggle a church, a family and a secular job, and all are vying for his time. And somewhere in the middle of all of that, he has to find time to sleep.

If he sacrifices time on the job, asks for too many days off for ministry purposes, he will lose that job because his boss needs him on the job and if he can't be there, he will fire the pastor and then the pastor has nothing. So, there are some advantages to taking a salary at the church so that it frees up the pastor to be the pastor and to be a father to his family.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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All churches that meet on sundays in a building adhere to the same SYSTEM of a semi boss over the common people.
Name one that does not ...
They all use differing titles ... But the system pattern remains the same.
1 person at the front calling the shots.

This starts with the "church planter", Pastor. After a short time he/she is forced to adhere to the law.
In the US, the system is under government control through the "not for profit" system, a 501c3 status. There are regulations and requirements that need to be followed which forces the group to organize in a certain way. The Pastor is the CEO or Executive Director , legally speaking. There is also a need for a Board of Directors which can be called the Elders. This is ONLY if they want to collect money for the congregation...and there is the root of the problem, money. Preaching for profit was never taught in scripture however sustaining the Pastors and Elders is. This system has been certainly abused. Once thought to help the sector, it is often abused to line the pockets of the church planter. But this is not the case all the time.
 
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Not David

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The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money.

It does two things JESUS said are NOT to be so.

It exercises dominion OVER people
And Lords it over people.

Jesus said that is the ways of the gentile
Heathen to exercise authority and lord it over.. But with YOU...it is not so.

Yet the entire sunday and saturday system is based upon a theology that opposes the words of JESUS.
You should learn the History of Christianity.
 
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Dave-W

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This starts with the "church planter", Pastor. After a short time he/she is forced to adhere to the law.
In the US, the system is under government control through the "not for profit" system, a 501c3 status. There are regulations and requirements that need to be followed which forces the group to organize in a certain way. The Pastor is the CEO or Executive Director , legally speaking. There is also a need for a Board of Directors which can be called the Elders. This is ONLY if they want to collect money for the congregation...and there is the root of the problem, money. Preaching for profit was never taught in scripture however sustaining the Pastors and Elders is. This system has been certainly abused. Once thought to help the sector, it is often abused to line the pockets of the church planter. But this is not the case all the time.
You are making a blanket statement that is not always true. In my church (ELCA) the pastor is not the CEO.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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You are making a blanket statement that is not always true. In my church (ELCA) the pastor is not the CEO.
Your congregation is under a larger umbrella. It will still work the same way. Such as The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA).
 
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Kaon

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The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money.

It does two things JESUS said are NOT to be so.

It exercises dominion OVER people
And Lords it over people.

Jesus said that is the ways of the gentile
Heathen to exercise authority and lord it over.. But with YOU...it is not so.

Yet the entire sunday and saturday system is based upon a theology that opposes the words of JESUS.

This is a twice dead horse. What is in the Church now is wirchcraft, and people don't realize they are under a spell because they don't believe in what is exploiting them.

We could blame the leadership, but they are doing exactly what they are supposed to do - exploit the people to the point that (hopefully) they come to a conviction. These leaders have them obeying government before the Most High God, and worshipping gods and idols without their knowledge. It is sickening, but the painful part is telling someone and realizing the defensive reaction.

Every man is responsible for the trajectory of their own soul; everyone with eyes will see, and everyone with years will hear. The others are at the mercy of the Most High God.
 
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lismore

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I believe Athilis is speaking very forcefully against something that many believers have experienced.

When a church leader or church system, not called or ordained by God, perpetuates spiritual or financial abuse in the lives of believers. I have experienced it.

This can happen in many churches, many denominations. Some I believe operate on systemic abuse of the sheep.

Ezekiel 34 speaks directly to this very problem.

IMO we should listen to and help believers caught up in this. I believe the ultimate solution is when the Lord returns, the temporary solution, help the believer to move to pastures new.

God Bless
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Not true. Most pastors work a 40 hour week job and many don't take a salary from their churches. You really have no idea what a church really is.
Really? I am not aware this in normative. Is this the case in your denomination? That would be refreshing.
 
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lismore

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Really? I am not aware this in normative. Is this the case in your denomination? That would be refreshing.

I have experienced both, a pastor who does a 40 hr week and a pastor who does a one hour week. God Bless :)
 
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Kaon

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Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Where the Most High God, or the Word of God Himself say that we should obey and submit to our leaders when they are taking advantage of us, and leading us astray?

Paul is talking about righteous leadership - responsible leadership that watches over your soul, not a budget or nation.
 
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Your congregation is under a larger umbrella. It will still work the same way. Such as The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA).
No, the pastor is not the CEO. Don't tell me how it works, I have served on Church Council for numerous years including several as president.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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No, the pastor is not the CEO. Don't tell me how it works, I have served on Church Council for numerous years including several as president.
I am not telling you how your church works, I am telling the OP how a 501c3 operates. All churches who take in donations have this status. I was also referring to the original "church planter" which covers many non-denominational entities. Anyway, I hope that clears things.
Blessings
 
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Dave-W

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Where the Most High God, or the Word of God Himself say that we should obey and submit to our leaders when they are taking advantage of us, and leading us astray?

Paul is talking about righteous leadership - responsible leadership that watches over your soul, not a budget or nation.
You. Are adding your own interpretation into the text. It has no caveats like you say. Both Paul and Peter said to submit to the governing authorities, and that was Nero at the time, who loved to feed Christians to the lions.
 
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I am not telling you how your church works, I am telling the OP how a 501c3 operates. All churches who take in donations have this status. I was also referring to the original "church planter" which covers many non-denominational entities. Anyway, I hope that clears things.
Blessings
No, you said that 501c3 makes the pastor the CEO. It does not.
 
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Monk Brendan

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The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money.

It does two things JESUS said are NOT to be so.

It exercises dominion OVER people
And Lords it over people.

Jesus said that is the ways of the gentile
Heathen to exercise authority and lord it over.. But with YOU...it is not so.

Yet the entire sunday and saturday system is based upon a theology that opposes the words of JESUS.
If you want to think then, then you go right ahead.

The vast majority of Christians of all types during the last 2000 or so say you're wrong.

Or is it just to you the word of God has come now?
 
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