What causes sickness?

[Auntie]

Today at 09:11 PM sklippstein said this in Post #80 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682759#post682759)

 

I agree!  Why do some still think that sickness is caused by sin?

Hi sklippstein. Well, sickness can be the *result* of sin, the natural consequence of sin. For example, an alcoholic might end up being very sick because he had too much to drink.


But the people in this thread are talking about something entirely different, something along the lines of falling under a curse every time you sin, and the curse itself causes illness. And that you are under the curse if you are unfortunate enough to not know about the curse. I guess that's where sick children come into the picture. Blah. I don't believe it.

God created disease, God created bacteria and viruses, they belong to Him. All of creation belongs to Father God. God says He causes the rain to fall on the good and the bad, the just and the unjust. A Godly person can have a relatively disease free life, and die a relatively peaceful death. BUT, the same thing can happen to an atheist. All atheists are NOT sick, and all atheists don't experience painful deaths.

 

[sklippstein]

Auntie, i agree..........sickness is NOT caused by a curse. IF that were the case, they why did the appostles get sick? ONE thing i did notice that Jesus NEVER got sick........nothing that is recorded in the bible, anyways.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Yesterday at 06:03 PM Auntie said this in Post #78

People die when they are old because their bodily systems are worn out. Years of stress on the body eventually takes it's toll on all of us. But God has the last word, it is HE who decides how and when we will die.

Auntie, this was your post #64

 Everyone in this thread will one day die of disease, or an accident. But the overwhelming majority of people die of disease in their body. You can't escape it. To assert that this is a curse, is to assert that we are forever cursed, even unto death. 

The body attacking itself is not the way God created the body to work.  When God formed Adam and Eve, it was intended that they live for eternity.  But when they ate what they were told not to eat, their body bagan to decay and operate in a manner that was opposite the way God had initially formed it. 

Death of the flesh is inevitible but it does not have to be because of it attacking itself.  Just because that's the way the overwhelming majority of people do it does not mean that I am doomed to do it the same way.

People die of lots of things, Quaffer, do you need scripture to tell you this?

You're taking my question out of it's context Auntie.  My question was "where is the scripture that says the only way one dies is by disease or accident"  That was your statement in post #64

It is not a curse to take sick and die. God is sovereign, He can call us home to Heaven in whatever way He chooses. We die when and how He chooses. It is a very Holy moment. It is not for us to decide, but God.

Yes, it is!

In Gen 2:16, 17 (NKJ) God said to Adam "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Notice, God did not say "you will get sick or be in an accident and die". He said "you shall die".

Death is the curse that came as a result of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  None of us are saying that we can decide when and how we go.  We're saying we don't have to go sick. 

Sickness is a curse from not listening to God and obeying Him. Deut 28:15 (NKJ) "But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:"  Those are God's words.  Are we to call Him a lier?

In Deut 28:1-14 is God's promise to those do listen and observe.  Verse 1 says, "Now it shall come to pass, if you diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefull all His commandments which I command you today, that the LORD your God will set you high above all nations of the earth".

Then for 13 more verses there is a list of all the blessings and while it does not promise they will never experience death, it does not say they will experience it by sickness, or accident.  The only times in scriptue that people died this way was in direct judgement from God for their blatant dissobedience. 

Unless the rapture comes "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb 9:27), we know we will someday die in the flesh.  But it is not required that it be by sickness or accident.  No matter what the overwhelming majority does. 

I choose to follow Christ, not the overwhelming majority.

 

[Auntie]

Today at 09:51 AM Quaffer said this in Post #83 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=683560#post683560)



The body attacking itself is not the way God created the body to work.

I didn't say anything about "the body attacking itself", and I really don't know what you mean by that statement. God designed our immune system to attack invaders of the body. There are some diseases in which the immune system is attacking the body, but WHAT does that have to do with "old age"? Old age is not a "disease", no one dies because they are old! I challenge you to show me ONE death certificate that says: "Cause of death--Old Age". Don't even bother, it doesn't exist!

You're taking my question out of it's context Auntie.  My question was "where is the scripture that says the only way one dies is by disease or accident"  That was your statement in post #64

I didn't use the word "only". The #1 cause of death for young people(in USA) is accidents. The #1 cause of death for older people is heart disease. OF COURSE people die of many other things!

Yes, it is!

I don't believe it, sorry. You keep quoting the OT, I find that very interesting.

Sickness is a curse from not listening to God and obeying Him.

Hogwash. Your statement CONDEMNS innocent little children, God have mercy that you would believe such a thing. You are falsely judging, convicting and sentencing God's little ones.

And you make God a liar, because there are MANY thousands of HEALTHY atheists walking around! Are atheists somehow immune to this "curse"? If your words were true, then ALL atheists would be sickly and die young of horrible disease. It's just not true!

I don't care to argue about this. You are free to believe what you want.

On a personal note, my mother was a Godly person who died young of cancer. AND YET, her sister is an ATHEIST living a LONG and HEALTHY life!! My aunt was raised in the church, baptised, and a believer! About 15 years ago, she became atheist and has totally rejected God and the Bible. She has NO illness in her, and is very healthy and prosperous!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Yesterday at 03:53 PM Auntie said this in Post #84

I didn't say anything about "the body attacking itself", and I really don't know what you mean by that statement. God designed our immune system to attack invaders of the body. There are some diseases in which the immune system is attacking the body, but WHAT does that have to do with "old age"? Old age is not a "disease", no one dies because they are old! I challenge you to show me ONE death certificate that says: "Cause of death--Old Age". Don't even bother, it doesn't exist!

Auntie, I don't know quite how to respond, because the more I try, the more irate you seem to get.  

When God designed the body the immune system worked without fail.  But since the fall, it does fail and more and more frequently attacks the body it is supposed to be protecting.   

OK, so you seem to view my usage of the term old age as a "reason" for dying.  I apologize. That is not how I was using it.  I don't plan to die until I am old.  So in my opinion that would be dying of old age.  Perhaps I should change it to dying IN old age. LOL

Yesterday at 03:53 PM Auntie said this in Post #84
I didn't use the word "only". The #1 cause of death for young people(in USA) is accidents. The #1 cause of death for older people is heart disease. OF COURSE people die of many other things!

Auntie, you said, "Everyone in this thread will one day die of disease, or an accident."  Again I apologize, you listed only 2 options here so I concluded that you felt there were no others to consider.  My option of course being dying IN old age and not sick.

Yesterday at 03:53 PM Auntie said this in Post #84
I don't believe it, sorry. You keep quoting the OT, I find that very interesting.

If you go back to my post #15 you'll see that is untrue.  Death and sickness are curses which originated according to disobedience. (OT)  Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. (NT)

However, if we continue to walk as under the law, we will reap what we sow.  From one generation to another. But those curses can be broken by our walking "as children of light and not darkness". (NT)

Yesterday at 03:53 PM Auntie said this in Post #84
Hogwash. Your statement CONDEMNS innocent little children, God have mercy that you would believe such a thing. You are falsely judging, convicting and sentencing God's little ones.

My statements are not one's of condemnation.  Since "by His stripes we are healed", that is freedom.  The law says sick people are condemned to stay that way.  I'm saying that according to Jesus, they aren't.

Yesterday at 03:53 PM Auntie said this in Post #84
And you make God a liar, because there are MANY thousands of HEALTHY atheists walking around! Are atheists somehow immune to this "curse"? If your words were true, then ALL atheists would be sickly and die young of horrible disease. It's just not true!

I don't care to argue about this. You are free to believe what you want.

On a personal note, my mother was a Godly person who died young of cancer. AND YET, her sister is an ATHEIST living a LONG and HEALTHY life!! My aunt was raised in the church, baptised, and a believer! About 15 years ago, she became atheist and has totally rejected God and the Bible. She has NO illness in her, and is very healthy and prosperous!

Only those who call themselves free (saved) yet continue to walk as under the law.  If they are athiest then they are not calling themselves saved.  And I would call their healthiness, God's mercy and grace extended to them. 

Even before we knew Him, He died for us.  Body, soul, and spirit.

 

[Auntie]

Today at 01:38 PM Quaffer said this in Post #85 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685306#post685306)

Auntie, I don't know quite how to respond, because the more I try, the more irate you seem to get.  

I don't mean to sound irate, sorry. It's just that you seem to be using sickness as a "sign" that someone is out of God's will. And that sounds so totally judgemental of some poor soul who is sick. We are called to pray for the sick, helping them all we can. Telling them they are sick because they are living out of God's will is judging them. Some sick people ARE living out of God's will, of course. But not ALL.

OK, so you seem to view my usage of the term old age as a "reason" for dying.  I apologize. That is not how I was using it.  I don't plan to die until I am old.  So in my opinion that would be dying of old age.  Perhaps I should change it to dying IN old age. LOL

Mother Teresa, a very Godly woman who devoted her life to helping the poor and the sick, died IN old age, OF heart disease.

Auntie, you said, "Everyone in this thread will one day die of disease, or an accident."  Again I apologize, you listed only 2 options here so I concluded that you felt there were no others to consider.  My option of course being dying IN old age and not sick.

Sorry again, I was only speaking of the most common causes of death, not the only causes of death. My own dad was murdered, so of course I know that there are other ways to die, it's just that murder is not very common, but disease and accidents are extremely common.

Only those who call themselves free (saved) yet continue to walk as under the law.  If they are athiest then they are not calling themselves saved.  And I would call their healthiness, God's mercy and grace extended to them. 

My aunt was a saved Christian, a baptized believer in Christ as her Lord and Savior. NO ONE, not even herself, can pluck her out of Jesus hand. Her husband abandoned her, and it shook her faith. I think she felt God had abandoned her too. My hope is she will one day come back to her faith, and back to God. I think, deep down inside, she is angry at God, but to the world she professes atheism. I tell my aunt that I am praying for her, and she always says she appreciates my prayers. That tells me a lot about her.

 

[seebs]

I always think the "sickness is a sign of poor faith" people have it backwards.

The real faith is when you *aren't* healed, and you still believe.

 

[Auntie]

Today at 02:49 PM seebs said this in Post #87 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685464#post685464)

I always think the "sickness is a sign of poor faith" people have it backwards.

The real faith is when you *aren't* healed, and you still believe.

Amen, bro seebs! Sometimes you post things that are so totally from the heart of God, you have a lot of insight. Thank you! I'm thinking of Joni Erickson Tada, who has been in a wheel chair for most of her life, and what GREAT faith she has!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 03:41 PM Auntie said this in Post #86

I don't mean to sound irate, sorry. It's just that you seem to be using sickness as a "sign" that someone is out of God's will. And that sounds so totally judgemental of some poor soul who is sick. We are called to pray for the sick, helping them all we can. Telling them they are sick because they are living out of God's will is judging them. Some sick people ARE living out of God's will, of course. But not ALL.

I'm sorry that is how I sound to you. In my opinion I am not saying that people are sick because they are living out of God's will.  Please see my post #30 in this thread.

Today at 03:41 PM Auntie said this in Post #86

Mother Teresa, a very Godly woman who devoted her life to helping the poor and the sick, died IN old age, OF heart disease.

Sickness can hit any of us at any time.  It's knowing what to do and then following through with the knowledge one has.  I and others have stated many times that faithfullness or the lack thereof has nothing to do with whether one manifests healing or not.

Also, one may have great faith for one thing and then very little faith in another.  I have great faith in God's provision for me but when it comes to MY body manifesting healing, it is a struggle.  I  choose to believe in my unbelief. 

Today at 03:41 PM Auntie said this in Post #86

Sorry again, I was only speaking of the most common causes of death, not the only causes of death. My own dad was murdered, so of course I know that there are other ways to die, it's just that murder is not very common, but disease and accidents are extremely common.

Like I said in a previous post.  While these may be common reasons for people to die, I do not believe that we, as Christians are limited to what the common way is.  I believe that many Christians limit themselves to the common way because that's the only choice they believe they have.  They just don't know that there is freedom from the law that says we have to die due to sickness or accident. 

I'm sorry to hear about your dad.  That must have been a very difficult thing to work through.  I had a very close friend who was murdered and it took me a long time to work through it.

Today at 03:41 PM Auntie said this in Post #86

My aunt was a saved Christian, a baptized believer in Christ as her Lord and Savior. NO ONE, not even herself, can pluck her out of Jesus hand. Her husband abandoned her, and it shook her faith. I think she felt God had abandoned her too. My hope is she will one day come back to her faith, and back to God. I think, deep down inside, she is angry at God, but to the world she professes atheism. I tell my aunt that I am praying for her, and she always says she appreciates my prayers. That tells me a lot about her.

I believe it was David who lamented about seeing the unrighteous flourish while the righteous struggled.  But the Word says that sin is fun for only a season.  David also said, "I have never seen the righteous forsaken, OR their seed begging for bread."

I don't claim to know all the in's and out's of how things work.  I just believe that if sickness attacks me, I can attack it back and that the prayer of faith will heal.  I know that in the name of Jesus I am healed.  My body may not manifest that healing right away, but I keep believing.

God promises to faithfully see through to the end what He started.  I will agree with you in prayer that your aunt does return to God and that her faith become even stronger.

 

[Auntie]

Today at 03:13 PM Quaffer said this in Post #89 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685507#post685507)


David also said, "I have never seen the righteous forsaken, OR their seed begging for bread."

Maybe David never saw it, but I have(seed begging for bread). Jesus tells us to feed the hungry. As Christians in general, I don't think we do such a good job of this, although most of us try to. There are a lot of hungry Christians out there, especially the elderly living on Social Security, barely getting by.

I don't claim to know all the in's and out's of how things work.  I just believe that if sickness attacks me, I can attack it back and that the prayer of faith will heal.  I know that in the name of Jesus I am healed.  My body may not manifest that healing right away, but I keep believing.

I believe that too. God has healed me of many things, especially after I have cried out to Him for His Divine healing. I have also witnessed Divine healing in others.

 

[Blade]

28th February 2003 at 03:34 PM Auntie said this in Post #75

I pray that disease is never a part of your life, Blade.

hay I'm a big boy I know how you ment it. I know you did not mean it for anyone.  

 

[Blade]

28th February 2003 at 08:09 PM Outspoken said this in Post #79

I agree with auntie. You can die of disease, old age, even cancer and it can be part of God's plan. If he calls you home at 30 you can't very well die of old age..LOL.

Hi Outspoken

There is no scripture for that.

My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. Let them no depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh. Proverbs 4:20-22

The word of God is what you stand on not what has or is happening to people around you. Show me the person that Jesus would not touch because he was gona call them home? There is none. Everyone Jesus touched that needed healing he did it. Now there were people he did not heal because of there unbelief.

Where in Gods holy word does it say disease, cancer is part of Gods plan? 

 

[Evee]

My mothers doctor told her stress breaks down the immune system.

 You are open to all sorts of diseases once the immune systems gets weak. 

 I believe myself that many diseases have a spiritual root.

Has anyone ever heard of Hashimoto Disease it is supposed to be a breakdown in relationship with God man and others. 

 I read that somewhere but not sure where. 

 I try to avoid stress at all costs but not always possible.

 Stress always makes me feel bad.

 

[Blade]

Today at 02:05 PM Auntie said this in Post #88

Amen, bro seebs! Sometimes you post things that are so totally from the heart of God, you have a lot of insight. Thank you! I'm thinking of Joni Erickson Tada, who has been in a wheel chair for most of her life, and what GREAT faith she has!

Hi Auntie

We should not look at other people and have that be our answer. The "poor faith" does at times have alot to do with it but what we eat, and do to our own body is our fault not Gods. Then when something does happen (God forbid) people like to say its Gods will or God just called them home. It is sad but most people wait untill something bad happens to them and then try to believe and have faith. Proverbs 4:2-:22 that scriptrue alone, ask your self do you attend to Gods word? Do you keep them infront of you all the time? Do you keep them in your heart? Lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. We have to stand on Gods word and never ever move. To me its like if you say God sometimes heals and sometimes he does not. Then God sometimes saves and sometimes he does not. We believe on a scripture just because God said it, John 3:16. You don't feel saved do you? No you know your saved because God said it and if he said it he will do it. And if someone comes along and says I don't feel saved do we then say "well then your not". God does not go by feelings. I know its silly but there is a truth here. We like to say that God wants everyone saved but not healed. He wanted them healed in the OT and wanted them saved and healed when he was here. It is written God never changes. He is the same then and now.

You don't learn this over night. The word of God says you can not please God without faith. Faith with out works is dead. You have to work your faith in small things and build from there. Deut 28 was true then and still ture now. When something happens to me I always say it is written. I have learned all this by myself from God not any man.

 

[Blade]

Today at 04:28 PM Evee said this in Post #93

My mothers doctor told her stress breaks down the immune system.

 You are open to all sorts of diseases once the immune systems gets weak. 

 I believe myself that many diseases have a spiritual root.

Has anyone ever heard of Hashimoto Disease it is supposed to be a breakdown in relationship with God man and others. 

 I read that somewhere but not sure where. 

 I try to avoid stress at all costs but not always possible.

 Stress always makes me feel bad.

I have not. I really just wanted to say 
  Evee

 

[Evee]

Hi Blade glad to see you.

 

[Evee]

I found out what Hashimotos disease is it is Thyroid disease.
I am not sure how that could be a breakdown with God or anyone else do you?

 

[Auntie]

Yesterday at 04:59 PM Blade said this in Post #91 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685720#post685720)

hay I'm a big boy I know how you ment it. I know you did not mean it for anyone.  

I was truely wishing you well, that's all. And if you are generally healthy now, there's a very good likelihood that you will indeed live a long and healthy life.


Thank you for your other post too. God's blessings always.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Yesterday at 04:41 PM Auntie said this in Post #90

Maybe David never saw it, but I have(seed begging for bread). Jesus tells us to feed the hungry. As Christians in general, I don't think we do such a good job of this, although most of us try to. There are a lot of hungry Christians out there, especially the elderly living on Social Security, barely getting by.

Auntie, instead of concluding that the error is on the part of the seed, you conclude that God does not follow through with His promises?

There are many scripturs where God makes promises of provision for whatever we need.  One of my favorites is PS 91:1-3(Amplified) "He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall remain stable and fixed under the shadow of the Almighty [Whose power no foe can withstand].  I will say of the Lord, He is my Refuge and my Foirtress, my God; on Him I lean and rely, and in Him I [confidently] trust! For [then] He will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence.  [Then] He will cover you with His pinions, and under His wings shall you trust and find refuge; His truth and His faithfulness are a shield and a buckler."

There's also the one in the NT where Jesus refers to God caring for us more than the lillys of the field, who neither toil or fret over what they will wear or eat.

Scripture does not say we will never experience want, but it does say He will not leave us in want.  I don't believe we can ever fully understand mercy if we are never in position to receive mercy. 

A person truely leaning upon God will not be going to other people for their food.  While God generally uses people to meet these needs, for us to go begging is lack of trust in His promise to keep us.

Ps 23:1 The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want.

Auntie, God keeps His promises.  If there is error, it's on our part, not His. 

 

[SnuP]

why don't all those who disagree with the position of this thread accually post some scritural support, rather than just saying:

"Well I just don't agree with that." If you don't agree, give good reason, not your personal logic.