What are the keys to the kingdom of heaven?

[Rose_bud]

luke 11:52Woe to you, lawyers! for you have taken away the key of knowledge: you entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in you hindered ..

matt23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for you neither go in yourselves, neither suffer you them that are entering to go in...

What about knowledge(knowing the will of God) and power(being able to do that will)...the scribes and pharisees had only knowledge but not the power to do it...

 

[Pythons]

There is zero doubt that Christ establsihed a visible Church...
...A Church with structure / hierarchy.
...If the Church wasn't this way we would NOT have the councils.
...I'm speaking of the 1st seven to make this point.

If the Church was not set up this way we would not have had...
...The Council of Jerusalem as recorded in Scripture.
...Which made a determination on a matter of "SALVATION"!

Now, the issue here in this thread should be to show from Scripture...
...That the real Church - the Church Christ established.
...Exercised real authority and that it's determinations were binding.

Unless we keep this thread directed at the real issue what we will have...
...Is E.O. and R.C.C. holding a UFC.
...While the Prots sit back with popcorn and laugh at the spectacle.
...Which was the intention of the thread in the 1st place IMO.

If R.C.C. and E.O. agree on the 1st seven E.C.'s......
...That's enough right there to establish "authority".
...And seriously, who aside from R.C.C.'s and E.O's.
...View all those E.C.'s as valid?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

luke 11:52Woe to you, lawyers! for you have taken away the key of knowledge: you entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in you hindered ..

matt23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for you neither go in yourselves, neither suffer you them that are entering to go in...

What about knowledge(knowing the will of God) and power(being able to do that will)...the scribes and pharisees had only knowledge but not the power to do it...

Hey lookie here!
There are 3 woes showing in Revelation! Kewl!

Luke 11:52 "Woe to ye the Lawyers,
that ye take away the Key of the Knowledge, yeselves not enter and of the ones entering ye hinder/forbid'
[Hosea 4:6]

Reve 9:12 The woe, the one departs, Behold! is coming still two woes after these.


Reve 11:14 The woe, the second, departs. Behold! the woe, the third is coming swiftly

 

[ivebeenshown]

Unless we keep this thread directed at the real issue what we will have...
...Is E.O. and R.C.C. holding a UFC.
...While the Prots sit back with popcorn and laugh at the spectacle.
...Which was the intention of the thread in the 1st place IMO.

The real issue is: what are the keys (plural) to the kingdom of Heaven?

And if not "the authority to bind and loose" then who is given that authority and what does it mean?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The real issue is: what are the keys (plural) to the kingdom of Heaven?

And if not "the authority to bind and loose" then who is given that authority and what does it mean?

http://www.christianforums.com/t4328528-3/#post29533818
Whatever you bind on earth, you have already bound in heaven

"Whatever you bind on earth, you have already bound in heaven" What does jesus mean by this, I need a simplified version of the bible because I don't understand Jesus's teachings, well some of them.

 

[Rose_bud]

http://www.christianforums.com/t4328528-3/#post29533818
Whatever you bind on earth, you have already bound in heaven

"Whatever you bind on earth, you have already bound in heaven" What does jesus mean by this, I need a simplified version of the bible because I don't understand Jesus's teachings, well some of them.

Why was that thread closed...it didn't seem as hectic as all the other RC vs the other guys threads
I would have like to know the response to that last question....Did the "seventy" who were sent out have the same authority?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Why was that thread closed...it didn't seem as hectic as all the other RC vs the other guys threads
I would have like to know the response to that last question....Did the "seventy" who were sent out have the same authority?

It happened a lot back then.
A lot of threads on Roman Catholicism were closed it seems.

 

[Rose_bud]

It happened a lot back then.
A lot of threads on Roman Catholicism were closed it seems.

Guess they were using their authority to bind(close) it seems

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Guess they were using their authority to bind(close) it seems

Yeah.....what I call the "dark ages"

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49586152&postcount=1

 

[Tangible]

Luther's Small Catechism:

What is the Office of the Keys?
The Office of the Keys is that special authority which Christ has given to His church on earth to forgive the sins of repentant sinners, but to withhold forgiveness from the unrepentant as long as they do not repent.

Where is this written?
This is what St John the Evangelist writes in chapter twenty: The Lord Jesus breathed on His disciples and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” [John 20:22–23]

What do you believe according to these words?
I believe that when the called ministers of Christ deal with us by His divine command, in particular when they exclude openly unrepentant sinners from the Christian congregation and absolve those who repent of their sins and want to do better, this is just as valid and certain, even in heaven, as if Christ our dear Lord dealt with us Himself.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The real issue is: what are the keys (plural) to the kingdom of Heaven?

And if not "the authority to bind and loose" then who is given that authority and what does it mean?

You trusted that the person who baptized you was Christian, correct?

I mean... it would be silly to think that someone outside Christianity could baptize you into the Christian family, correct?

Could you force someone to baptize you?

The authority manifests itself in the giving or denying of the sacraments.

Forgive me...

 

[visionary]

I see.

I did see it in this manner: Thou art (small stone) and upon this (great almighty ROCK) I will build my Church.

I began reading Acts through the other night and did not finish...

Yep, a chip off the ol' block in understanding that upon Yeshua as God in the flesh will this gospel be built

 

[Pythons]

The real issue is: what are the keys (plural) to the kingdom of Heaven?

And if not "the authority to bind and loose" then who is given that authority and what does it mean?

Like OrthodoxyUSA said, the keys indicate authority....
...Of the sort that allows access to the King.

If you look at the incident recorded in Acts 15 the meaning of the Authority is clear...
...Binding and loosing authority.
...Which is given via God.

At the time of Acts 15 there was individuals who insisted that Christians....
...Were required to follow the law of Moses, Sabbath observance, unclean foods, etc.
...These individuals taught this was a matter of salvation.

"The Apostles" met & the Holy Spirit spoke through THEM....
...And the determination was carried throughout the Church.
...Because the determination was BINDING.

In this day and age a Prot would simply say the Church is invisible....
...And the Holy Spirit speaks to each Christian & convicts them as to the true teachings.
...Therefore provided an individual "really believes something" - it's true.

Can you imagine the above happening when the Apostles determination was read after the Council....
...I'm sure a few of the Law of Moses Party shook their heads.
...And formed their own true Gospel Church!

The notion is about as unBiblical as it gets....

 

[ivebeenshown]

You trusted that the person who baptized you was Christian, correct?

I mean... it would be silly to think that someone outside Christianity could baptize you into the Christian family, correct?

Could you force someone to baptize you?

The authority manifests itself in the giving or denying of the sacraments.

Forgive me...

I was baptized by THE HIGH PRIEST, in fact, I can trace my baptism directly to an Apostle.

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
​

He baptized me in his water and I was born of his water and his Spirit:

[FONT=&quot]Revelation 1:15[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] John 4:14[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] John 5:25[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.[/FONT]
​

 

[ivebeenshown]

Like OrthodoxyUSA said, the keys indicate authority....
...Of the sort that allows access to the King.

If you look at the incident recorded in Acts 15 the meaning of the Authority is clear...
...Binding and loosing authority.
...Which is given via God.

At the time of Acts 15 there was individuals who insisted that Christians....
...Were required to follow the law of Moses, Sabbath observance, unclean foods, etc.
...These individuals taught this was a matter of salvation.

"The Apostles" met & the Holy Spirit spoke through THEM....
...And the determination was carried throughout the Church.
...Because the determination was BINDING.

Does anyone other than God possess the authority to give such authority? Does this authority belong only to Apostles?

In this day and age a Prot would simply say the Church is invisible....
...And the Holy Spirit speaks to each Christian & convicts them as to the true teachings.
...Therefore provided an individual "really believes something" - it's true.

The notion is about as unBiblical as it gets....

The Church is visible by its fruits.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I was baptized by THE HIGH PRIEST, in fact, I can trace my baptism directly to an Apostle.

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
​

He baptized me in his water and I was born of his water and his Spirit:

[FONT=&quot]Revelation 1:15[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]John 4:14[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]John 5:25[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.[/FONT]
​

So you are saying that you have never been physically baptized.

I see.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Does anyone other than God possess the authority to give such authority? Does this authority belong only to Apostles?

Does this mean then that you doubt that the Apostles established Presbyters in Christs name to carry on HIS work? And you would also have to deny that Christ said HE would establish HIS Church and the gates of Hell would never prevail against it.

You are aware that there were seventy other Apostles correct?

Many of them became Bishops. Rome was not the only Apostolic See.

Forgive me...

 

[ivebeenshown]

So you are saying that you have never been physically baptized.

I see.

Forgive me...

By having someone dunk me in water? No...

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I was not baptized by John, but by the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

By having someone dunk me in water? No...

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I was not baptized by John, but by the name of Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the honesty.

Is there a reason for avoiding this sacrament that is offered to all who believe?

Would you not avail yourself of every opportunity?

Forgive me...

 

[Secundulus]

By having someone dunk me in water? No...

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I was not baptized by John, but by the name of Jesus Christ.

You are making it up as you go.