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What are the keys to the kingdom of heaven?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by ivebeenshown, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member

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    Mark 14:12 On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

    Luke 22:7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.

    Either the lambs were sacrificed and the seder celebrated two days, or the Gospels contradict each other.


    John of Damascus, An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith (Book IV)
    John 6:48 For when He was about to take on Himself a voluntary death for our sakes, on the night on which He gave Himself up, He laid a new covenant on His holy disciples and apostles, and through them on all who believe in Him. In the upper chamber, then, of holy and illustrious Sion, after He had eaten the ancient Passover with His disciples and had fulfilled the ancient covenant, He washed His disciples' feet in token of the holy baptism. Then having broken bread He gave it to them saying, Take, eat, this is My body broken for you for the remission of sins. Likewise also He took the cup of wine and water and gave it to them saying, Drink ye all of it: for this is My blood, the blood of the New Testament which is shed for you for the remission of sins. This do ye in remembrance of Me. For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you do show the death of the Son of man and confess His resurrection until He come.

    Cyprian of Carthage, The Epistles of Cyprian, Epistle 75
    For the faith of the sacred Scripture sets forth that the Church is not without, nor can be separated nor divided against itself, but maintains the unity of an inseparable and undivided house; since it is written of the sacrament of the passover, and of the lamb, which Lamb designated Christ: "In one house shall it be eaten: ye shall not carry forth the flesh abroad out of the house..

    Hilary of Poitiers,On the Trinity (Book X)
    That we may understand what was the cause of His sadness, let us see what precedes and follows this confession of sadness: for in the Passover supper our Lord completely signified the whole mystery of His Passion and our faith.

    Gregory Nazianzen, St [325-389 AD], Oration 40
    Again, He gave the Sacrament of the Passover to His Disciples in an upper chamber, and after supper, and one day before He suffered; but we celebrate it in Houses of Prayer, and before food,(g) and after His resurrection...

    John Chrsytotom Homily 83 on the Gospel of Matthew
    For after having shown His own strength, then at once He yielded Himself. But John says, that even to the very moment He continued to reprove him, saying, “Judas, do you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?” Luke 22:48 Are you not ashamed even of the form of the betrayal? Says He. Nevertheless, forasmuch as not even this checked him, He submitted to be kissed, and gave Himself up willingly; and they laid their hands on Him, and seized Him that night on which they ate the passover, to such a degree did they boil with rage, and were mad.

    John Chrsytotom Homily 83 on the Gospel of John
    “But what is, 'That they might eat the Passover?' For He had done this on the first day of unleavened bread.” Either he calls the whole feast “the Passover,” or means, that they were then keeping the Passover, while He delivered it to His followers one day sooner, reserving His own Sacrifice for the Preparation-day, when also of old the Passover was celebrated.

    Augustine, Letter 55
    " And the same evangelist who records that saying is to be understood as desiring to give emphatic testimony to this, when, speaking of the Lord as about to celebrate with His disciples the passover, at which He instituted the sacramental supper, he says, "When Jesus knew that His hour was come, that He should depart from this world unto the Father
     
  2. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member

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    Have you actually looked at the order of the seder? The original Passover meal was indeed eaten in haste, as slaves making their escape. The annual celebrations which followed were eaten reclining, to show their freedom. It is the last of the four questions that children are supposed to ask -- "Why is it that on all other nights we dine either sitting upright or reclining, but on this night we all recline?" The answer is that they eat as free men, no longer in bondage.
     
  3. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member

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    None the less the Orthodox Churches all teach that he died at the same hour as the lambs were slaughtered.

    If there was ever a problem with sola-scriptura.. this is certainly one. The two Gospels contradict each other.

    The Orthodox Churches teach from John's POV as being correct.

    Forgive me...
     
  4. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member

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    The Catholic church teaches that he died at the same hour as the lambs were slaughered as well.

    We don't believe the two Gospels contradict each other. We agree with the quote I provided from John Chrysostom where he does not accept a contradiction at all but reconciles both with two options. I'd say the second is the one we accept -- that there were two days.

    So when did the Orthodox move away from his view that the differences between the two are reconcilable and that the Last Supper was indeed the Passover meal, to one that the Gospels are contradictory? Especially since he and other Eastern fathers seemed sure it was a Passover meal?
     
  5. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member

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    THANKS BE TO GOD!

    Out of all of this, that is a capital "T" tradition.

    I see. However Rome claims not to know for certain?

    The Church of Antioch teaches that these two contradict, and frankly would find it more difficult if there were no contradictions in scripture that need clarification. That would make all the Gospel to seem contrived for convienience. I can't say if the entire Orthodox Church embraces this...



    The Orthodox Churches embraces based on DOGMA and captial "T" traditions, not doctrine.

    Not matter what... it was HIS 'Passover'. That is how it is spoken of..

    ...are you familiar with the rituals of a Chaburah meal?

    Christ added the offeratory of The Holy Eucharist to the end of a Chaburah and made it HIS 'Passover' meal. HE is replacing the sedar, making this HIS sedar, where HE IS the lamb.

    The last supper happens before the scheduled sedar meal of Friday night after the lambs are slain. HE knows what is going to happen next. At the last supper CHRIST GOD is offering himself as the lamb that will be slain on Friday. He asks them to eat and drink of HIS flesh and blood that he offers in prayer to The Father.

    Forgive me...
     
  6. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member

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    BTW ~ Rest assured that James is the elder brother of OUR LORD and was left in charge of the Church at Jerusalem by Christ and The Apostles.

    Peter did not know the liturgy of the Melchizedek Priesthood. He was taught it after Christs resurrection and before HIS ascension. Any questions... go to James.

    Imagine these two brothers worshiping at The Temple. What must it have been like to grow up with Christ as your younger brother... whom you didn't believe until you saw HIM raised from the dead. (Hey... little brother... your not supposed to be here!)

    Did you know that people mistook them for twins even though James was several years older?

    Forgive me...
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  7. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member

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    Binding and Loosing is the 'effect' of the use of the 'keys'.

    The sacraments that were put into the hands of mankind by Chirst are 'the keys'.

    Those whom Chirst taught personally were said to hold these keys.

    The Holy Eucharist is the master key.

    Forgive me...
     
  8. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member

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    Administrativly all the Apostles were equal in council. That is how Bishops became equal in council as well. With one sitting as Chair... and something passes when they are all in agreement... and not before. There is no 'one Bishop above all Bishops'. There are councils, with Christ leading.

    Forgive me...
     
  9. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

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    You won't find that in the Bible! What you will find is instruction (command?) to praise Him with essentially every instrument ever created, both with a joyful noise, skill, and LOUD. There's no way this is not a "key to the kingdom;" I've seen far too many people delivered that way ... in fact I know a trumpet player that many have been healed just by his sound
     
  10. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member

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    I find it quite interesting...

    How about a-capella ivebeenshown?

    Forgive me...
     
  11. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

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    So what about the principle of "Apostolic succession," that those the Lord taught personally, who they taught personally, who they taught ... on down to us. Do all hold the keys? Only 'sacramental Priests?'

    I greatly appreciate the discussion here ...
     
  12. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member

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    Ah... the laying on of hands.

    Only those who pass through certain stages are taught about the keys.

    Ordained! AXIOS AXIOS AXIOS!

    Think of it as 'hands on' training! Pun intended!

    Forgive me...
     
  13. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

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    Yes, this is exactly how I was taught. Those who do the will of the Father shall know of the doctrine ... 20+ years ago I turned down the opportunity to be ordained, via a process of a life in close contact w/ Leadership and approved. Something just "wasn't right" but I never stopped learning, and now being exposed to Orthodoxy is ... simply amazing!
     
  14. simonthezealot

    simonthezealot have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

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    I'm confused about you, you claim to be anglican but what you do NOT think that the bible is the only infallible source of revealed truth?
    What else is?

    You lack of historical knowledge is clearly visible on this post as well, if you think there were no NT scriptures available for the first 300 years...:doh:
     
  15. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

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    Anglicans elevate tradition and reason to the level of Scripture, and maybe reason is higher. While our Biblical books were written and used, they weren't "canonized" so other books may have had equal status; but there was no dispute about the books we accept now. And before they were written down, the same things were taught. So effectively the Church was NEVER w/o our NT, and the biggest gap was really illiteracy ...
     
  16. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member

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    I am familiar with the Chaburah. It is not the same thing as "eating the Passover".

    The typology of the seder meal is the typology for Eucharist. It is the sharing of the Passover Lamb as a communal meal, foreshadowed in the OT and fulfilled in the New. You teach the Eucharist is a sacrifice, correct? That is the nature of the seder meal. The sacrifice of the Passover Lamb.

    I researched this a while today. My conclusion is that on this issue the Orthodox have no concensus. It is one of the things that makes trying to understand Orthodoxy quite frustrating. Many things are presented as Orthodox 'teaching' that is not held in common by the Orthodox churches at all.

    Aside from I think the typology is all messed up, the thing which concerns me most about what you've said and one site I said that supports your view is this:

    The Orthodox Church uses leavened bread for, according to the Gospel of Saint John, Last Supper and Passion, took place during the evening, night and day time of Passover Day, therefore leavened bread was eaten in Last Supper. According to the synoptic Gospels, last Supper, Lord's trial and crucifixion took place during next day, the first Day of Unleavened Bread feast, but according to Lev 23:7, any work on that Day was forbidden. Clearly, the synoptic Gospels are in error on the day of Last Supper and Passion.

    Eucharist - OrthodoxWiki

    Frankly, that leaves my mouth agape. Not only would this mean they were confused about the date, but the apostles who referred to it as 'eating the Passover', and that it was the day the lambs were to be sacrified are in error about that as well.

    To believe that the 3 out of the 4 Gospels are in such grave error does not sound very Orthodox. It certainly wouldn't be very Catholic.
     
  17. laconicstudent

    laconicstudent Well-Known Member

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    Reasonable, since Scripture is part of Tradition.

    Read history. There was. There was quite a bit. There still is.


    Marcion of Sinope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Emergence of the New Testament Canon

    Deuterocanonical books - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    And the fact that lots of people disagreed on what the Church should be using. :doh:
     
  18. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for listening, studying and finding out that there are other Sees who speak differently.

    The idea that the scriptures are perfect to the point of needing no explaining is not Apostolic. Forming opinions based exactly on scripture is exactly what Rome has done in this case.

    WE... The Orthodox Churches are united on DOGMA.

    'Doctrines' are the teachings of men who were not taught by Christ. They are opinion.

    You could hold an incorrect Doctrine... but as long as we hold to correct DOGMA we are still united as Orthodox Christians.

    My point was... Christ took an ordinary meal... with no lamb served and made HIMSELF the offering using the ordinary leavened bread and wine in the Melchizedek liturgical fashion.

    The PERFECTED Melchizedek liturgical actions IS what Christ taught to PETER, JAMES and JOHN. The center of which, is the offering of The Holy Eucharist.

    HE IS OUR PASCAL LAMB.

    Christ Jesus died at the same hour the lambs were slain... for the sedar meal. That IS a matter of Apostolic "T"radition. Every Apostolic Church stilll proclaims it.

    HE did not partake of the sedar meal, as he was laid in the tomb.

    THIS ACTION HAS BEEN REPEATED EVERY DAY IN THE EAST FROM WHEN JAMES TAUGHT THIS LITURGICAL WORSHIP IN JERUSALEM. It was later written down by The Church of Antioch (first daughter of Jerusalem) and given the name, The Liturgy of St. James.

    SO... Your 'source' in this case is The Church of Antioch. Not Rome.

    Let me ask... what history book do you think I learned that from?

    Forgive me...
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2010
  19. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The use of leavened bread in the Eucharist is for symbolic and theological reasons and has nothing to do with what type of bread was used at the last supper. It is also historical fact that Rome too used leavened bread until the practice was changed around the 8th century.
     
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