What are memories stored on?

[Chesterton]

Obviously memories are stored in the brain.

That may not be obvious. Plants seem to make memories without a brain. This lady in Australia has done a couple of cool experiments:

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic...emember-this-one-seems-to-heres-the-evidence/

 

[Ana the Ist]

You are misrepresenting what I mean.

Well spit it out then...what did you mean?

 

[juvenissun]

Yes.



No, this is a subtle, but very real, mistake. If some pattern is the pattern that recognizes Halle Berry, there is no previous system that has already identified Halle Berry to 'control' the Halle Berry pattern. There is no point in activating the Halle Berry identifying system, if the 'controller' has already somehow identified Halle Berry.

For simpler systems, we do understand how cells in the vision system react to movement or lines. No control system has to tell them to see a line. The input from the retinas is all that is needed. Similarly, the input of Halle Berry's face or name ultimately leads to the activation of the Halle Berry system, and that is where the recognition happens.

Don't we "recall" our memory as if the memory (whatever it is) is already there? If not, then why would the image of Halle Berry always the same everytime it is "recalled"? The system MUST have an ID somewhere. If the ID is not the firing pattern, then it would be the special input signal. We do not have to see or hear to be reminded on something. We can simply "think of" it. If so, where does the input signal come from?

 

[juvenissun]

Or one of us wants to believe so badly that they "see evidence" where it doesn't exist.

You still do not understand what an evidence is.
It is a fact, doesn't matter if you see it as an evidence or not.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You still do not understand what an evidence is.
It is a fact, doesn't matter if you see it as an evidence or not.

No...I don't think you understand what evidence is.

It's a fact that the brain is complex.

The fact that the brain is complex isn't evidence that it's designed.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Don't we "recall" our memory as if the memory (whatever it is) is already there? If not, then why would the image of Halle Berry always the same everytime it is "recalled"? The system MUST have an ID somewhere. If the ID is not the firing pattern, then it would be the special input signal. We do not have to see or hear to be reminded on something. We can simply "think of" it. If so, where does the input signal come from?

I think we're talking at cross purposes. Yes the pattern (memory) is already there. But you seemed to be suggesting that some 'controller' needed to recognize Halle Berry, and then go tell the Halle Berry neuron to fire. But that's backwards. The Halle Berry neuron (or rather the pattern it is part of) IS the Halle Berry-recognizing-thing in our brain.

"We do not have to see or hear to be reminded on something. We can simply "think of" it. If so, where does the input signal come from?"

From inside. We have 100 billion neurons doing all sorts of things. Some of them are largely internal. And they send their signals around, just like the neurons that interface directly with retinas and cochleas do.

 

[SkyWriting]

No. The image I posted has maybe 20-25 cells in it. Your brain has about 100 billion neurons. And the number of connections between them is much much larger. This is complicated, but I see no evidence of intelligent design.

After a few hundred thousand years in space looking for life, you may change your mind.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...Now what mechanism ques up that sequence of electrical impulses when the guy brings to mind recognizes Halle Berry?

If you're asking how the Halle Berry pattern is reactivated, it's a question of associations. When the Halle Berry pattern is formed, it isn't the only thing you're experiencing - there is a context associated with it that gives it meaning, i.e. helps 'hook' it into what we already know about the world (our other patterns relating to actors, films, famous women, etc.) - many of these existing patterns will be active when the new pattern is formed, and links will form between them, so that when the 'actors' pattern is activated, the Halle Berry pattern will be weakly activated too, and when the 'famous women', 'films', and 'actors' patterns are activated, the Halle Berry pattern will be more strongly activated, perhaps strongly enough to cross the threshold into conscious awareness.

Bear in mind that the mechanism for this are subconscious - when you consciously try to learn something, e.g. Halle Berry's films, you are trying to establish new patterns for the films and associative links between them and the existing Halle Berry pattern by repeatedly activating them together.

These patterns may not form all at once - you may initially just see the face or hear the name, forming a weak pattern associated with whatever context you encountered it in. Every subsequent experience that activates that initial pattern will strengthen it, perhaps linking with new patterns being formed, and linking to other existing patterns. The more patterns are associated, the more easily a pattern can be activated when combinations of those patterns are activated. From this you can see that the Halle Berry pattern isn't really a single coherent thing, but a collection of associated patterns with varying strengths of association.

There's no mechanism that 'queues up a sequence of electrical impulses' when you think about Halle Berry; something will prompt that recall. Some patterns will be active that have associations with some part of the Halle Berry pattern, and at some point its activation will be strong enough to reach conscious awareness.

There are mechanisms to suppress the activation of too many patterns so that you don't get a domino effect where everything gets activated - sometimes these kick in when you're consciously trying to recall some specific fact and will actually block the activation of the very pattern you're trying to activate; these may be intended to prevent distractions from the subconscious when we're thinking consciously and deliberatively - so if you direct your conscious focus of attention elsewhere, the suppression stops, the desired pattern is activated, and it may pop into conscious awareness.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

So, if we both are to remember a phone number, then the firing neuron pattern in my brain could be very different from that in your brain. Right?

Right.

There must be a control mechanism to fire the neuron pattern, where is that mechanism be stored? We forget things. That means the controlling mechanism is lost. What is exactly lost?

There are general control mechanisms that regulate how active certain parts of the brain are and which parts should have priority, but particular memories are triggered by association, either from outside stimuli or from ongoing internal activity.

We forget things if the patterns were weak and have faded over time because they weren't reinforced or other stronger patterns 'swamped' them, or because the associative links to them have faded through disuse or suppression. Some links seem to last indefinitely, so may be the only remaining association to a memory - such as olfactory associations; a particular smell can reactivate a memory from many years before.

Memories are not stable - once activated and recalled, they can be as open to revision and new associations as the day they were first established. Repeated recall of a memory inevitably changes it over time, as the current experiential context adds to it and establishes new associative links, and old links get overridden. This happens particularly when recounting a memory to others, when the need to make it more interesting leads to exaggeration and confabulation, and it may become merged with other similar or related memories activated at the same time.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

What does a "signal" look like when it triggered a memory neuron pattern?

Typically it would be the connections from a number of active associated patterns crossing the activation threshold for that memory pattern.

Could it be "one" chemical? How do we revoke that chemical?

Not sure what you mean; hormones are chemicals that modulate the activity of large areas of the brain; but a single external chemical stimulus, such as a smell, can uniquely trigger a memory.

Our brain brings up the image of Halle Berry by a signal of image, sound, word, etc. Do these different methods make the same kind of "signal"?

Different sensory perceptions are processed by different areas of the brain, but the resulting patterns can all be linked or associated into a conceptual whole. Not sure what you mean by "the same kind of 'signal'" - all sensory input arrives as patterns of neural activity, 'electrical' pulses. For example, auditory signals are literally encoded with nerve signals corresponding to the frequencies of the sounds perceived.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The more we remember, the more creative we would be.
Now, how would one neuron firing pattern interact with the other ones and create a new pattern which we never have before?

We have the capacity for matching these patterns at higher levels of abstraction, we can make associations based on various types of commonalities between patterns; this allows us to make similes and metaphors. Creativity arises in a similar way, where new commonalities between patterns are recognised and the newly relevant features of one pattern are applied to the other to produce a novel result.

Would it be true that the larger the brain, the higher the capacity of memory and the higher the ability of creation?

Not necessarily; brain size broadly reflects cognitive capacity, but in many animals large parts of the brain are specialized for particular sensory functions; in other species, such as birds, brain size is a poor guide, as they may have far smaller and more densely packed neurons, making them as cognitively capable as animals with brains many times the size. Also, creativity needs the capability for abstraction, so that structural commonalities between otherwise unrelated patterns can be recognised.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... We do not have to see or hear to be reminded on something. We can simply "think of" it. If so, where does the input signal come from?

The trigger for activation can be external or internal or a combination of both. As essentialsaltes said, there's stuff going on in your brain all the time, whether you're consciously aware of it or not. Sometimes you can be conscious of some pattern being active, but have no control over it, e.g. an 'earworm', a song or tune that keeps repeating - I get these a lot.

 

[com7fy8]

Obviously memories are stored in the brain. What I was wondering is are they stored in a bit of brain tissue, chemicals, or electric impulses?

my uncle struggles with vascular dementia.

What I have picked up is that secular people understand that we have two basic sorts of memory > short-term and long-term. It is like how a computer can have actively processing information, and a computer can have stored memory. The active memory for what the computer is doing is electrical and functional. But the stored memory is in a physical state, but can be activated.

You are asking how is stored memory activated, in the brain? My opinion is, for us Christians, we can trust the Holy Spirit to bring to remembrance what God wants to get our attention. I do understand and trust that memory has a spiritual level of function and control, though the brain can be then included in the activity. So, first, I consider, we do well to trust God to manage how we remember and what we remember

In personal and prayerful relating with God, we can have the best memory activity. Also . . . in relating with people, our memories can do best while we are relating in love . . . since, I understand, this can have us sharing with the Holy Spirit who will maintain and bring the best memory activity. So, in relating with a demented person, be as gentle and humble and kind in Jesus as we can, so this ministers the best result.

Practically > people with dementia can have memories from long in the past, because they are stored and can be brought up; I was told that long-term memories are stored as protein . . . and therefore they are structural so they won't just go away; and so a demented person can surprise you with things you don't remember . . . but from the past, not in the active moment.

But a main problem for dementia people is the functional memory . . . the short-term which is neuro-electrical . . . at the physical and brain level. When any of us is waking up, we still can be mixed up so we do not have our memories working, for the moment. Yet, we can keep track of long-term stuff. But short-term can be confused, i.e., which day it is, what time it is.

I am told that frustration and arguing can cause trouble by competing with active memory of the moment . . . the short-term memory. Because the short-term is electrical and active, and frustration and arguing can compete for the electrical function and help to short-circuit the memory process. But if you were to argue with a long-term memory or interrupt someone's telling of a long memory, you might keep the person from remembering in the moment what he or she is talking about, but the person still can draw back up that memory, later

I have seen, I think, how a partly demented person can be especially mixed up, right when the person first wakes up from a night's sleep or a nap. So, if I start interacting with the person, right away, about which day it is and if he has taken his pills . . . we can go on and on struggling and arguing. But if I just be quiet and wait while he gets oriented and comes to his social senses, then it can be much easier to talk reality with him. This could be because I have humbly and gently related with him so he has loving support for his memory and relating to work right.

Again, I have been told that frustration and arguing can be very destructive to a demented person's memory function. These things have spiritual roots. So, be prayerful, mainly, I would say

 

[essentialsaltes]

Just today I saw news of a new pathway for forming long-term potentiations (i.e. memory patterns)

 

[juvenissun]

I think we're talking at cross purposes. Yes the pattern (memory) is already there. But you seemed to be suggesting that some 'controller' needed to recognize Halle Berry, and then go tell the Halle Berry neuron to fire. But that's backwards. The Halle Berry neuron (or rather the pattern it is part of) IS the Halle Berry-recognizing-thing in our brain.

"We do not have to see or hear to be reminded on something. We can simply "think of" it. If so, where does the input signal come from?"

From inside. We have 100 billion neurons doing all sorts of things. Some of them are largely internal. And they send their signals around, just like the neurons that interface directly with retinas and cochleas do.

Back to a basic question:

It takes a few neurons to fire together to make a pattern, which would construct one piece of memory. OK, how do we make all those neurons fire together to make a pattern? Yeah, it takes a signal. How does the signal do it?

 

[juvenissun]

No...I don't think you understand what evidence is.

It's a fact that the brain is complex.

The fact that the brain is complex isn't evidence that it's designed.

It is.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Back to a basic question:

It takes a few neurons to fire together to make a pattern, which would construct one piece of memory. OK, how do we make all those neurons fire together to make a pattern? Yeah, it takes a signal. How does the signal do it?

Cells are 'trained' to fire by the firing of other cells, which act as inputs. Some inputs tell a cell to fire more rapidly, others tell a cell to fire less rapidly or not at all. I don't really know how the patterns get 'trained'. I presume from complex combinations of all of the thousands of inputs received by some group of cells (including some internal connections as well).

 

[Ana the Ist]

It is.

Lol no...no it isn't...but thanks for proving my point about which of us doesn't understand what is "evidence" and what isn't.