What are demons? The heavenly realms?

[Valetic]

Like I said in my OP I'm just having some growing pains and that's what led me to post the thread..

 

[John Bowen]

Like I said in my OP I'm just having some growing pains and that's what led me to post the thread..

Check out The Screwtape Letters by C.S Lewis

 

[BroRoyVa79]

That was a long time ago and I am a professed traditional Christian that defends the whole bible to the best of my abilities, specializing in creationism and the gospel itself. I am way past the point of return in Christianity

My fault for jumping to conclusions.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

It means that Jesus was a man of his culture, a culture which believed that unexplainable phenomena were caused by supernatural forces.

You're a product of your own culture, which reduces everything down to non-supernatural forces. Some of those explanations are reasonable, and others stretch the truth. If Jesus were wrong as a product of his culture, I might argue that I could be equally wrong as a product of my own culture, but error on the side of Christ is to err in favor of caution. If I must be wrong, then I'd rather be wrong for the sake of Christ.

Besides, I've encountered demons a few too many times not to believe they exist.

 

[Steve Petersen]

You're a product of your own culture, which reduces everything down to non-supernatural forces. Some of those explanations are reasonable, and others stretch the truth. If Jesus were wrong as a product of his culture, I might argue that I could be equally wrong as a product of my own culture, but error on the side of Christ is to err in favor of caution. If I must be wrong, then I'd rather be wrong for the sake of Christ.

Besides, I've encountered demons a few too many times not to believe they exist.

You had an experience. That is not evidence.

 

[BroRoyVa79]

You had an experience. That is not evidence.

So every biblical author's experience is not evidence? A witness testimony's experience in court is not evidence? Really?

 

[Steve Petersen]

So every biblical author's experience is not evidence? A witness testimony's experience in court is not evidence? Really?

Religious texts are not objective sources. They have an agenda.

 

[oldrunner]

Thanks, and thanks for responding.



You list a couple things for your #1 so I will address them each:
1a) The story of the rich man and Lazarus is about where 100% humans go when they die. If we accept that there were hybrid (half angel for sake of argument/half human) creatures then they are somewhat partially supernatural and partially natural. Would the same rules of death apply to them? Especially if scripture doesn't outright address it. Instead, it references extra-Biblical literature on it in the New Testament.
1b) Where exactly does 1 Thessalonians 4 indicate angels carry souls of the saved to Heaven and will bring the souls back during Jesus' resurrection? Instead, I read that those who die will rise again. When compared with 1 Corinthians 15 we know this will be in a resurrection body, not souls. The latter is also talking about resurrection with no mention of angels transporting souls. Revelation 6-7 is about the six seals, 144,000 and the Great Multitude in Heaven.
1c) Yes, death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. The angels who committed the sexually immoral sin are locked up in Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6). Their offspring is another story.



This doesn't challenge the disembodied spirits of giants theory. Anyone I know who holds that demons are disembodied spirits of giants also embrace that they seek a host, a body to indwell.

The word used in Genesis is Nachash. Nachash can mean serpent in its noun form, but in verb form, it means "shining one, but the book I attached and the lecture gives good arguments that it can also mean the shining one. Heiser explains it should be used as an adjective here and therefore in Genesis 3, the shining one deceived Eve. However, the word also explains serpentine appearances of some of these beings which many of the elohim (seraphim, cherubim, etc.) were.



Satan is actually "The Adversary" and the Devil/Lucifer usually fulfills that position. A little nitpick.
Still, we disagree on the indwelling in Eden. In Eden, Adam and Eve walked among God and other entities. (See Ezekiel 28:12b-19 for quick reference). Thus, if Satan/Lucifer was already among them and Adam and Eve knew of him, why would he have to indwell a snake/serpent to talk to them. He'd just walk up to them and sow the seeds of doubt with "Ye have God said?"

Also, if you investigate the word Nachash you will learn that almost everytime it's used the beings have a serpentine likeness. See the Firery flying Serpents since this word is used for Seraphim in Numbers 21.



Genesis 6:4 calls them Nephilim. There is pretty much no translation that calls them "men" in Genesis 6:4. Here is a comparison: https://biblehub.com/genesis/6-4.htm. Nearly all either translate them as "giants" or leave the word "Nephilim" or there are some other translations such as "fallen ones" or "the children of supernatural beings who had married these women..."

Gigantism and being a Nephilim are two different things. Gigantism is a disease, a disorder and many people with it are frail. Those like the wrestler Andre the Giant are exceptions to the rule. However, when we look at someone like Goliath and his brothers we see able bodied fighting giants who could wear roughly 126 lb. armor, and carry 15-20 lb. weapons with ease and fight with speed. Remember Goliath was the champion of Philistines from fighting death matches. He wasn't a simple pushover. If you want to argue Goliath is not a Nephilim, then you only have to look at the other Nephilim mentioned in the scriptures that the Children of Israel had to fight to cleanse the land. The Rephaim, Anakim, and occasionally some among the Amorites. These weren't large, deformed, and frail warriors with gigantism.



The history of Christianity is Jewish. There are Jewish fables then there are Jewish commentaries that assist in understanding things we may not otherwise understand. None of this is dogmatic. You can happily go along and establish a relationship with Christ without ever knowing who the Nephilim or demons are. But when someone asks a question like "Who are these Nephilim in Genesis 6?" or "Who/What are Demons?" Then you have to look a bit deeper and not just stop at Christian tradition from the middle ages.

Overall, I agree, book of Enoch is not inspired, but it is heavily used in theological courses and Ancient Near Eastern studies and compared with existing scripture and texts.



Spiritual is just a way of describing their existing form. We do an injustice by assuming spirit means non-physical in the sense they don't have a type of physical body. Simply because it is not exactly like our current form does not mean this is something whimsical, transparent, and non-physical. Psalm 104:4 does not necessarily mean they only have a physical body when God allows it. Nor does 2 Kings 2:11-12. Those passages mean that they are doing the work of God as sent by God. Here's a question, when we all move from this side of creation to the next, from this form of existence to the next, will God and the supernatural entities on the other side of creation still be invisible, incorporeal beings or will they have some type of form in that realm that can interact with us?

Spiritual beings can take on a physical body. God and his supernatural entourage ate with Abraham, they can attack armies, carry people, etc. When Jesus was being tempted for 40 days and 40 nights, the Devil appeared to him and interacted with him. Was the Devil intangible then, with no physical body?

Also, the likening to the angels was in the context of marriage and the resurrection and not capability to procreate. When this comes up everyone reads sex into that passage when the question was about marriage in the first place. Yes, marriage can assume there would be intimacy, but the context of the question was "whose wife would she be?" not "Whom will she procreate with?" (Matthew 22:23-28; Luke 20:27-33; and Mark 12:18-23)



I disagree. I don't see anywhere to see demons as fallen angels, but I know that is what many in the Church believe.



There might be some arguments from experiences that may challenge this view of demonic possession or as some say, oppression, among professing Christians.

However, I agree. Paul was oppressed. Saul seemed to be possessed tho, but that's debatable.

Edited to add:


According to Dr. Heiser, the word Nephilim actually most likely comes from an Aramaic noun naphiyla which means giant, when you insert it into the Hebrew and pluralize it, you get nephiylim. He also explains that in order to get "those who fall" or "Fallen ones" you would have to spell the word nophelim or nephulim rather than the known nephilim.



I would say it's because we have over 2000 years of Christian tradition that is far removed from the Early Church in some areas. Does not mean Christian tradition is necessarily bad, but take for instance, the view that demons = fallen angels, that's more Christian tradition in which the Bible is used to defend it rather than find out what the Ancients might have believed when they wrote these things down. If that is possible anyway, it's not always possible to do if we don't have supporting texts to help us figure out what they were thinking around the time a book of the Bible was written or how they interpreted an obscure passage in Genesis 6 like the Book of Enoch as referenced in Jude and 2 Peter.

WOW! That's a lot Bro! I'm pretty sure you and 717 hold the same view point. But I'm not seeing it- but I understand it, and I agree that none of this is dogmatic must believe stuff. I think we both have our interpretations, and it may be one or the other, or a combo. Valetic the OP, got a good dose of both viewpoints that have merit, IMO.

I'll probably see you around the forums! God bless.

 

[Valetic]

Religious texts are not objective sources. They have an agenda.

Are you a Christian?

 

[oldrunner]

I know, so they came back. Some have said that their dna was in the wives of Noah's sons. Or not all the fallen angels were locked up after the flood, which means the angels who sinned in that verse were the ones who had mated with human women, and other free fallen angels repeated that sin.

The nephilim when they were killed because they are neither angel or man, God allowed to roam the earth as evil spirits. They lost their bodies and since they have some spiritual power, seek to inhabit another, that is called demonic possession, they miss having their body. And it through the body of a man that they can cause much troubles in the lives of men. An angel even fallen ones are of a different nature.

Thanks for the reply 717! I think you and BroRoy have about the same viewpoints. Like I said to him, I understand it, but don't agree- but it is not that major of a doctrine. So we will have to agree to disagree. See ya on the boards, and God bless!

 

[BroRoyVa79]

Religious texts are not objective sources. They have an agenda.

So now witness testimony (experience) from a religious text is not reliable evidence according to you? That's not what you said initially, you just claimed experience wasn't evidence.

That's not true. You need to look up the definition of evidence.
Do scientists have agendas?
Do people who report history have agendas?

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Demons are the disembodied spirits of the offspring that were created by Fallen Angels and human women mating that died in The Great Flood. Their spirits roam the earth.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Demons are non-existent beings used to explain disease and evil.

If demons are non-existent, then who was Jesus speaking to when He spoke to the Gadarene demoniac. The demoniac indicated the name "Legion", because, "We are many". But the demoniac was just one man. So who were the "we" who answered Jesus out of the man's mouth? And what entered into the herd of pigs upon request. and caused that herd to go mad and kill themselves over a cliff? Are you saying that this account never happened? And if so, are you saying that all the other events in that gospel never happened either? Are you also saying that there was no such person as the historical Jesus?

Interesting questions.

 

[Serving Zion]

I've been having trouble lately understanding what demons are, and for me that is strange, yet I have been having some spiritual growing pains lately so this may be a part of that. But I almost have doubts demons exist sometimes because it seems like the only thing that provides evidence for them is people acting strange and demonic or people in an occult doing what they believe is the will of a demon.

The only outward workings of these so called demonic forces is either bizarre and absurd behavior or purely evil deeds by humans.

There are many in the churches with spirits calling themselves The Holy Spirit, but who manifest the fruits of the flesh (think about 2 Peter 2:1-2, Jude 1:16-19 and 1 John 4:1).

It is strange for me to be having these doubts and feelings because I myself have experienced a form of deliverance and sensed a supernatural existence of evil. I know it is clear in the bible that demons are real.

Take genesis for example. It only uses the name "the serpent"

And then all of a sudden in the OT other gods and idols were being worshiped which I also believe are demons.

And then all of a sudden when Jesus shows up evil spirits are being cast out of people for the first time in the bible.

But who has actually seen one? Some people believe Satan is living in hell but the bible says he walks to and fro about the earth. There are definitely angelic sightings in the bible as if an angel was manifested or standing in front of a person as if they were a person in the bible, but never a demon did this with people.

You should rethink that (Acts 19:15-16). Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 12:9 shows that the angels must choose who they will serve. In light of the threats that they face if they should fail to serve God and then God should win the war, what do you suppose might tempt them to the dark side? Also see how they are mentioned in Mark 9:40, Matthew 12:43 and Mark 5:15.

How are we to know how to combat the forces of darkness if we do not even know what we are up against?

I agree with you about this, but there is a reason that we speak in a mystery (Malachi 2:7).

How do we do battle with them and keep an impenetrable fortress around us against them?

Be wise as a serpent, blameless as a dove. Keep your garment spotless and your lamp full.

Can they hear what we think? How much do they know about us?

Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and pharisee's, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. But, our wrestle is not with flesh and blood, so the role of the scribes and pharisee's, having been taken from them as warned in Matthew 21:43, the kingdom of God is now operating in the name of Jesus, and there is only one mediator between God and man, our high priest Jesus Christ, it goes to show how His sacrifice has been effective to break up the works of the devil (although creation still groans in anticipation of the revealing of the sons of God).

If Satan has been here since the beginning and all his forces with him or at least many of them, I would assume some have been watching me or have attempted to throughout my life. But I still wonder if they exist. If it is just my own evil nature in me causing my own evil thoughts and desires? Is it invoked by a demon or does it spring up simply because it's in my heart?

The heart is treacherous, and it is an open book when our life begins. Apply 1 Corinthians 15:33 and Proverbs 4:23.

Psalms 26
2 Probe me, Adonai, and test me,
refine my mind and my heart.
3 For Your love is before my eyes
and I have walked in Your truth.
4 I have not sat with men of falsehood,
nor do I consort with hypocrites.
5 I detest the company of evildoers,
and do not sit with the wicked.
6 I will wash my hands in innocence,
so I can walk around Your altar, Adonai,

 

[Sanoy]

Only matters if you are a literalist.

I'm asking how your interpretation, that demons are disease or the concept of evil, fits with the possessed man and the pigs because it seems like the entire story would be incoherent. If Jesus took nothing out of the possessed man and put it into the pigs, then it would mean Jesus forced the pigs to commit suicide, for the sole purpose of perpetuating this illusion of demons despite the fact that the unnecessary suicide into the ocean would bring the scorn of that region upon him. So how do you interpret this section in Luke in a coherent way under your view?

 

[Erik Nelson]

The life of St. Anthony the Great has all the answers and then some. If you don't have the time to read it all start from paragraph 21 all the way to 43.

powerful epic:

Having fallen, however, from the heavenly wisdom, since then they have been grovelling on earth. On the one hand they deceived the Greeks with their displays, while out of envy of us Christians they move all things in their desire to hinder us from entry into the heavens; in order that we should not ascend up there from whence they fell...

in heaven, YHWH has already "blasted them out of the fabric of space time", war's over, they already fell in heaven, and the Good News already reached earth 2000 years ago

they have some relic after echo of influence on earth for a Biblically short time from now until Judgement Day of Revelation 20:10,

until then they seek to hinder humanity out of spite for all of God's works

 

[Erik Nelson]

You had an experience. That is not evidence.

are you saying that we can't just trust everything people say?

 

[Erik Nelson]

I have trouble agreeing that the Nephilim were spawned out of angels having sex with women because the Bible doesn't really say that it just says the sons of God.

 

[Chinchilla]

I've been having trouble lately understanding what demons are, and for me that is strange, yet I have been having some spiritual growing pains lately so this may be a part of that. But I almost have doubts demons exist sometimes because it seems like the only thing that provides evidence for them is people acting strange and demonic or people in an occult doing what they believe is the will of a demon.

The only outward workings of these so called demonic forces is either bizarre and absurd behavior or purely evil deeds by humans.

It is strange for me to be having these doubts and feelings because I myself have experienced a form of deliverance and sensed a supernatural existence of evil. I know it is clear in the bible that demons are real.

Take genesis for example. It only uses the name "the serpent"

And then all of a sudden in the OT other gods and idols were being worshiped which I also believe are demons.

And then all of a sudden when Jesus shows up evil spirits are being cast out of people for the first time in the bible.

But who has actually seen one? Some people believe Satan is living in hell but the bible says he walks to and fro about the earth. There are definitely angelic sightings in the bible as if an angel was manifested or standing in front of a person as if they were a person in the bible, but never a demon did this with people.

How are we to know how to combat the forces of darkness if we do not even know what we are up against? How do we do battle with them and keep an impenetrable fortress around us against them? Can they hear what we think? How much do they know about us? If Satan has been here since the beginning and all his forces with him or at least many of them, I would assume some have been watching me or have attempted to throughout my life.

But I still wonder if they exist. If it is just my own evil nature in me causing my own evil thoughts and desires? Is it invoked by a demon or does it spring up simply because it's in my heart?

Common misconceptions due to tradition :

1) Satan is ruling hell
He is not , Jesus has keys of heaven and hell , Satan's destiny is Lake of Fire with the wicked angels and demons

2) Fallen angels and demons are the same thing
Not true , demons are product of fallen angels mating with women , fallen angels can change shape/body and manifest themselves physically while demons seek body which they lose after the flood, they enjoy entering in groups into one person , while angels can look like human beings and talk with you undetected .

 

[Erik Nelson]

I understand Michael Heiser to say that nobody is as yet in either Heaven or hell.

all souls reside in Sheol = Hades

the wicked dead reside in Tartarus, a sector of Hades

the righteous dead dwell in Abraham's Bosom, the opposite sector of Hades

but nobody's admitted to Heaven or sent to hell until Final Judgement Day

------------

fallen angels miraculously impregnated human women in Genesis 6. Cp. Alexander the Great's mother Olympias claimed Zeus affected her pregnancy with Alexander.

the fallen angels were imprisoned.

the second generation spirits of the Nephilim offspring remained on earth

for sake of illustration, Zeus was jailed, but Alexander's spirit yet wanders the earth

demons represent the second generation