What are demons? The heavenly realms?

[BroRoyVa79]

Keep in mind I was pro that God talks to people still since He has talked to me with the Holy Ghost on three separate occasions in my life and I'm 48 years old.

That in mind, the concepts that I've seen debated here appear to state that God does not communicate with anyone anymore and that if they claim it then they have been deceived or are having hallucinations.

I'll give a series of general answers to my categories:

New Stuff becoming the Bible: No, this type of revelation has ended.
Visions: Yes, I believe those can still happen, there's no real indication in Scripture that they've ended.
Dreams: Same with visions, still can happen. I've had Dreams that communicate things to me from God.
Prophecy of the future: Yes, I don't see in scripture a reason for God to stop revealing future events to people and enhance already existing prophesy in the Scriptures. Verification standards still apply. False prophets are still in the wrong.
Abruptly Receiving Information about something: Yes, I still see this happening, don't see a Scriptural argument that it ended.
God directly Communicating with people: Yes, I see this still happening, but verification standards still apply to verify it is God. This is both the responsibility of the person receiving the communication and the audience receiving the person's message.
Adding to my list below:
Supernatural beings communicating with people: Yes, I see this still happening. Where does it say that at some point supernatural beings are barred from talking to people on either side?
Only the Devil and Evil Spirits can communicate with people today: Wouldn't this handicap God? Why would God only allow the Devil and Evil spirits to communicate with people today? This seems like a horrible strategy and makes God out to be an accomplice to all the people who get deceived by evil spirits and the devil since God and Good spirits are not out actively countering the message? Also, nowhere in Scripture does it outright say all of this has ended. Especially on God's end. That is why we are told to try, test, and verify everything a spirit supposedly said with the Bible.

 

[Loren T.]

I don't get the whole idea that demons are the result of fallen angels mating with human women. If that were true, they would have physical bodies.

 

[BroRoyVa79]

I know they are not the same thing, as James 3:15 calls the carnal ("soulish") wisdom "demonic" - not being equivalent to the spirit that has taken possession of that one (Consider John 10:10 and Romans 6:16). My post was directed to the OP though as he is the one who is inquiring, and I wrote accordingly that he would receive what he is seeking in it. If you need further explanation from me in order to understand my position, I can make that available to you too, and I do apologise for having provided for the temptation, to think that I was looking for a debate.

I would say James 3:15 is likening something to being demonic and evil. John 10:10 and Romans 6:16 when put together can imply temptation by the thief who comes to kill, steal and destroy.

As far as debating. I apologize if I came off as trying to start one. I have a tendency to respond to things sometimes, but not all the time. I was more sparking conversation about a disagreement than anything. I see a debate as something different.

 

[Serving Zion]

I don't get the whole idea that demons are the result of fallen angels mating with human women. If that were true, they would have physical bodies.

It is based upon the idea that angels are eternal spirits, yet humans are mortal, so the hybrids were both mortal flesh and eternal spirit - their flesh having died in the flood but their spirit living on, restless, looking for a body to inhabit. I don't buy that view though, I recognise it's origin as speculative and not consistent with the true knowledge.

 

[BroRoyVa79]

I don't get the whole idea that demons are the result of fallen angels mating with human women. If that were true, they would have physical bodies.

Angels have been shown to take on physical bodies. Also, why assume a spirit is non-physical in the spiritual realm? Are they always incorporeal? When we die will we interact with those that already live in the other plane of existence?

But the main point here is all throughout the Bible even God can take on a physical body and interact with humans. He can even eat. (See Genesis 18).

 

[devin553344]

I know they are not the same thing, as James 3:15 calls the carnal ("soulish") wisdom "demonic" - not being equivalent to the spirit that has taken possession of that one (Consider John 10:10 and Romans 6:16). My post was directed to the OP though as he is the one who is inquiring, and I wrote accordingly that he would receive what he is seeking in it. If you need further explanation from me in order to understand my position, I can make that available to you too, and I do apologise for having provided for the temptation, to think that I was looking for a debate.


I have come to understand that a person's mental illness is a result of an environment and a philosophy that puts them at risk of not operating as they would in normal conditions. What I mean is that the voices a schizophrenic hears are imagined but not unreal and everybody is capable of developing the condition of having an internal dialogue with persona that are not their self, but an individual's character (belief system, philosophy, self-esteem, life choices etc) is what makes them vulnerable to illness where another person is not.

A schizophrenic experiences voices much the same way as a Christian experiences the voice of God in prayer, but the voices are not The Holy Spirit of God. Furthermore, when a person's involvement with the spirits grows through faith to impact their perception of reality (consider 1 John 4:1, 1 John 4:4), then there can even become a visible manifestation of spirituality in their experience of the world that is external to them (consider how it is that Jesus happens to be walking on His way and the demon possessed men approached, screaming at Him in Matthew 8:29, Mark 1:34 stating that the demons knew who He was, Mark 1:23-24 showing that a man who was listening in the synagogue suddenly burst forth with demonic manifestation).

Spirituality comes in many forms of the pursuit of the knowledge of such realities, and it is an ancient problem. In comparison, the secular study of mental illness is somewhat more in the dark, still being unable to answer difficult questions as such cases present, without acknowledging a spiritual reality. This is why I have asked if there is an official reference for what you have assumed by suggesting that secularism would deem Christ's experience with Satan as insanity. That could be useful information for me if you can find a good resource. Thank you!

Mental illness can be situational such as situational depression or clinical depression. Yes that's true, but the clinical illness is a imbalance in the brain chemistry. This is why I can take medication and be sane again, while situational depression may not go away when the person takes medications. Does that make sense. There are two types of mental illness again: Situational and Clinical.

It would only look insane to a naturalist or someone familiar with insanity I suppose if Jesus was talking out loud to Satan. Like he would look insane to many Doctors of psychology and psychiatry if they didn't know he was Jesus I suppose. I think for a good resource you would have to ask a psychiatrist, probably not a psychologist though. Since psychiatrist deal with the voices and medications. I'm not an expert, but if I saw Jesus talking out loud and no one was in front of him I might think he was also insane if I didn't know he was Jesus, I might also talk with them and suggest seeing a doctor, which I have done for some people. They usually ignore me or deny the help though.

A doctor would see talking outloud as a non-functioning illness, which is to say someone who needs medication. In other words, you could not keep a job and have a good quality of life if you're talking outloud to voice manifestations. I have been told this by doctors. Maybe that answers your question.

 

[Serving Zion]

I would say James 3:15 is likening something to being demonic and evil. John 10:10 and Romans 6:16 when put together can imply temptation by the thief who comes to kill, steal and destroy.

I think we have agreement, but either way I am not intending to teach anyone or do debate here

As far as debating. I apologize if I cam off as trying to start one. I have a tendency to respond to things sometimes, but not all the time. I was more sparking conversation about a disagreement than anything. I see a debate as something different.

Oh, I mean that I cannot cast pearls before swine, but if you think my position is not robust, then it should become apparent through questioning. I do apologise however, you would not have been tempted to respond if I had prefixed my response with "Dear OP: "

.. It is nice to be able to work together in establishing greater knowledge though

 

[BroRoyVa79]

I think we have agreement, but either way I am not intending to teach anyone or do debate here

Oh, I mean that I cannot cast pearls before swine, but if you think my position is not robust, then it should become apparent through questioning. I do apologise however, you would not have been tempted to respond if I had prefixed my response with "Dear OP: "

.. It is nice to be able to work together in establishing greater knowledge though

Yeah, again about a debate. It's why I started each of my responses with "I would say" rather than "You're wrong" or something more antagonistic. I was just trying to be conversational.

 

[Serving Zion]

Mental illness can be situational such as situational depression or clinical depression. Yes that's true, but the clinical illness is a imbalance in the brain chemistry. This is why I can take medication and be sane again, while situational depression may not go away when the person takes medications. Does that make sense. There are two types of mental illness again: Situational and Clinical.

This is mostly a false-cause fallacy, because the reality is that the chemical balance of the brain is only a factor of what you have called "situational depression" - that is to say that there is a pattern of greater prevalence of depression where the brain is not in optimal health, but it is wrongly classified as being a distinct type of depression.

I understand that you may have become accustomed to believing differently, because beliefs are habits of thought - having worked hard to decide upon a reliable and rigid conclusion that forms a basis for further philosophical knowledge.

It would only look insane to a naturalist I suppose if Jesus was talking out loud to Satan. Like he would look insane to many Doctors of psychology and psychiatry if they didn't know he was Jesus I suppose. I think for a good resource you would have to ask a psychiatrist, probably not a psychologist though. Since psychiatrist deal with the voices and medications. I'm not an expert, but if I saw Jesus talking out loud and no one was in front of him I might think he was also insane if I didn't know he was Jesus, I might also talk with them and suggest seeing a doctor, which I have done for some people. They usually ignore me or deny the help though.

I would say that if a person is talking out loud to Satan and there is nobody in front of them, then that person is deluded or hallucinating, not of the "sound mind" that belongs to a person having The Holy Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:7-8, 2 Timothy 1:7). There is plenty of people who do that, and some of the same type of demonic spirit being found in churches, yet there are many who acknowledge the spiritual reality with a sound mind. I recognise Jesus as being on the side of truth rather than delusion.

 

[devin553344]

This is mostly a false-cause fallacy, because the reality is that the chemical balance of the brain is only a factor of what you have called "situational depression" - that is to say that there is a pattern of greater prevalence of depression where the brain is not in optimal health, but it is wrongly classified as being a distinct type of depression.

I found this on the difference between situation and clinical depression, maybe this can help us understand each other better:

An adjustment disorder (AD)—sometimes called exogenous, reactive, or situational depression[1]—occurs when an individual is unable to adjust to or cope with a particular stress or a major life event. Since people with this disorder normally have symptoms that depressed people do, such as general loss of interest, feelings of hopelessness and crying, this disorder is sometimes known as situational depression. Unlike major depression, the disorder is caused by an outside stressor and generally resolves once the individual is able to adapt to the situation.[citation needed] One hypothesis about AD is that it may represent a sub-threshold clinical syndrome.

Interestingly I also read the article on Clinical (Major) Depression. And people with that see and hear things that aren't there. Maybe demons are in there.

This makes me wonder how much of demons are actually real and how much are hallucinations of people that don't know they're hallucinating? I also read the following in "Psychology Today":

"Everything from depression, grief, trauma, and psychosis can be responsible for seemingly paranormal experiences."

"However, many perfectly sane individuals have claimed to see spirits and believe in ghosts, and there are cases out there that simply cannot be explained away by grief, mental illness, or mistaken identity."

And although demons must be real, how much of it is real, even for sane people?

 

[Erik Nelson]

Many believe that the fallen angels are the sons of God in Genesis 6, who take "human women" as wives and their offspring are giants. These (the offspring) are the half man/half gods we see throughout all cultures... Zeus, Hercules, etc. When God destroyed the earth by water (the flood) the fallen angels just went back into their natural state (spirit) and were not killed... but the offspring, the nephilim or giants, were killed. Their spirits are the demons we read about and hear about.

yes, 2 Peter & Jude do say the fallen angels have already been imprisoned, awaiting Final Judgement

 

[Erik Nelson]

Coincidence interpreted as a miracle.

how many coincidences before the cumulative likelihood is so low as to demand just about any other explanation ?

 

[Serving Zion]

yes, 2 Peter & Jude do say the fallen angels have already been imprisoned, awaiting Final Judgement

This is a misleading interpretation.

I found this on the difference between situation and clinical depression, maybe this can help us understand each other better:

An adjustment disorder (AD)—sometimes called exogenous, reactive, or situational depression[1]—occurs when an individual is unable to adjust to or cope with a particular stress or a major life event. Since people with this disorder normally have symptoms that depressed people do, such as general loss of interest, feelings of hopelessness and crying, this disorder is sometimes known as situational depression. Unlike major depression, the disorder is caused by an outside stressor and generally resolves once the individual is able to adapt to the situation.[citation needed] One hypothesis about AD is that it may represent a sub-threshold clinical syndrome.

Yes, of course such a means of discernment requires a threshold! There is a difference between healthy grief and normal shock of trauma, compared to depression. If the one who makes that decision is not discerning the spirit, this is the exact problem. Jesus describes that behaviour in Luke 6:39.

Interestingly I also read the article on Clinical (Major) Depression. And people with that see and hear things that aren't there. Maybe demons are in there.

It's not right for me to comment without seeing the article, making sure I have the right understanding of what it is saying (otherwise it is like "Chinese whispers").

This makes me wonder how much of demons are actually real and how much are hallucinations of people that don't know they're hallucinating? I also read the following in "Psychology Today":

"Everything from depression, grief, trauma, and psychosis can be responsible for seemingly paranormal experiences."

"However, many perfectly sane individuals have claimed to see spirits and believe in ghosts, and there are cases out there that simply cannot be explained away by grief, mental illness, or mistaken identity."

And although demons must be real, how much of it is real, even for sane people?

The undeniable aspect that secularism yet can't explain is how reality itself is able to behave in such a demonic way toward the one who is facing them, even to the regret of and against the normal character, of the one who was hosting it at the time. Those examples I gave in post #100 show this.

 

[BroRoyVa79]

yes, 2 Peter & Jude do say the fallen angels have already been imprisoned, awaiting Final Judgement

Not all of them. Make sure you clarify that the ones who left their realm and engaged in sexual immorality are imprisoned.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Not all of them. Make sure you clarify that the ones who left their realm and engaged in sexual immorality are imprisoned.

well, yes... those were the only ones being discussed, but always important to clarify to the maximum

 

[Serving Zion]

I see, I have to further clarify what I have warned of the misinterpretation of 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6.

Where a common myth suggests that the fallen angels are in prison and waiting for destruction on the final day, rather that teaching originates from the fear of a mind that has fallen from the grace of God (1 Timothy 4:1, Matthew 8:29, 2 Samuel 14:14).

The specific errors in that myth rely upon the twisting of scripture (as all false doctrine does), so that the one who is reading in error is blinded by their belief, unable to see the full and proper meaning of the original words.

In this case, there is two instances of that happening:

"imprisoned" is being put in place of the word "chained/restrained/pits" and "final judgement" is being put in place of the expression "judgement of the great day". Although these seem trivial, it is the meaning behind the words and the way in which they are used, that gives advantage to the spirits that vie for dominance in the reader's mind.

So I am bringing to light that there is a widespread culture that twists these scriptures to convey a meaning that is different from what The Holy Spirit conveys through the original writer, and while the English language is adding complication to the reader, 2 Peter 3:16 shows that the problem is essentially spiritual - that is to say that even two people who speak the same language can be disunited where they are "speaking past each other" as it were (ie: "confirmation bias"). Consider 1 John 4:6 and James 4:1-2.

When we speak of the angels who have not kept their proper place, we are speaking of those who have been tempted to take advantage of their position of power, to subdue the human and make something for themselves from him (an offspring, idolaters) - having disregarded God's intention and purpose for them (Hebrews 1:13-14, Hebrews 2:16), and by so opposing Him, have become satanic. The consequence of sin, as we see in Adam and Eve's case, is that they are convicted in God's presence, unable to approach Him (eg: 1 Timothy 6:16, Psalms 24:3-4) because their conscience testifies against them, that that the life lost as a result of their rebellion is on their very own hands. They cannot escape that conviction as long as the consequences are evident (Romans 8:22). They are unable to escape darkness/gloominess, bound tight by unbreakable chains and being cut off from God so that they wander in gloominess, darkness and fear - and yet, they remain of their given form, able to do their duty as designed, but confused just as Adam and Eve were, about God's true nature. This, they have verified by putting Jesus to the test. This is why they have said to Jesus "we are legion", and it is common for them to speak in that way, knowing that they have no strength on their own (consider Luke 11:23). It is also common for them to give honour to God The Father, although being clearly of a fallen nature in the eyes of the sanctified.

Adonai works everything out for his own purpose—even the wicked for a day of disaster.
Proverbs 16:4

This "day of disaster" is an enduring truth of the Jewish faith, seen through the stories of Noah, Lot, Job and of course Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 2:16, Matthew 7:24-27), whereby Romans 2:9 contains the same warning along the lines of Matthew 3:2, Acts 24:25, Ezekiel 18:26-32 etc.

How horrible for you who look forward to the day of the Eternal One!
Why do you want it to come?
For you, its arrival will mean darkness, not light.
It will be as if you were to escape from a lion
only to run headlong into a bear,
As if you ran into a house to hide, leaned against the wall to rest,
and a poisonous snake latched onto your hand.
Will not the day of the Eternal One be darkness instead of light,
pitch black, without even a hint of brightness?
Amos 15:18-20

Now, this is the mystery of the Christian faith, that we do naturally yearn for the wicked to be blown away (Psalms 139:19-24), yet we are taught to love our enemies, but why? .. and how?

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evildoer. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him also the other.

Never take your own revenge, loved ones, but give room for God’s wrath—for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,” says Adonai.

Then Yeshua said to him, “Put your sword back in its place! For all who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.

.. and humans are not the only ones who have this sense of justice:

And Adonai said: ‘Who will entice Ahab king of Israel to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ Then one said this and another said that, until a spirit came forward and stood before Adonai and said, ‘I will entice him.’ So Adonai said to him, ‘How?’ He answered, ‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You will entice him and you will also succeed. Go and do so.’

.. and so far as the fallen, who do not receive their instructions from Adonai but are of their father the devil:

You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe—and shudder!

Adonai works everything out for his own purpose—even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Whoever digs a pit will fall in it, and whoever rolls a stone—it will come back upon him.

There is no sorcery effective against Jacob, nor any divination against Israel! Now it will be said of Jacob and Israel, ‘See what God has done!’

.. so, see that our wrestle is not against flesh and blood, but the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Woe to the earth, for the devil has great fury, knowing that his time is short. As soon as the humans catch on and break free of the illusion, seeing the truth for what it is (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12), then he has no place to go and no-one to represent him.

 

[Tayla]

What are demons? The heavenly realms?

My view of the topic: There is a physical realm and a spiritual realm. Our individual body resides in the spiritual realm but our individual soul/spirit resides in the spiritual realm where it interacts with other pure spirit creatures such as angels and demons. That's all there is to it. The goal of salvation via faith in Christ is to disentangle the demons from our soul/spirit so we can fellowship with God perfectly.

 

[JohnC2]

Something to think about.

What were God’s words to Adam and Eve in warning about the Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

And why was it so important that they NOT eat of
the tree of life in that fallen state?

The words were “Dying you shall die”.
The double repetition is inferred as emphasis...

But consider an idea based on the words used... That you experience a process of Dying then you Die. That’s what happens to most who grow old - you start dying long before you die.....

And what happens if DYING you did NOT die? So you enter into this perpetual state of pain, dying, loss of feeling, weakness, and decay - but you never experience the finality of death... You just keep dying.....

That’s my working theory of Demons... They were some sort of other being which is nominally “immortal” but which was cast fully to Earth and our dimensions.... Now the curse acts upon them too... and their physical bodies eventually were killed, died, and rotted - but they never experience the finality of death.... Dying they don’t die.... So there is now the perpetual pain, agony, and emptiness of dying.... And they go looking for bodies to inhabit so they can perhaps experience something besides emptiness and pain.... But since they are “Fallen” - they cannot experience harmony with God’s will.... And so far as I can tell - none ever asked Jesus for either forgiveness or finality of death. Jesus, Paul, and the Apostles refused their testimony - because while the facts may have been true, the testimony acted against God’s purposes....

That’s my working theory for now....

I've been having trouble lately understanding what demons are, and for me that is strange, yet I have been having some spiritual growing pains lately so this may be a part of that. But I almost have doubts demons exist sometimes because it seems like the only thing that provides evidence for them is people acting strange and demonic or people in an occult doing what they believe is the will of a demon.

The only outward workings of these so called demonic forces is either bizarre and absurd behavior or purely evil deeds by humans.

It is strange for me to be having these doubts and feelings because I myself have experienced a form of deliverance and sensed a supernatural existence of evil. I know it is clear in the bible that demons are real.

Take genesis for example. It only uses the name "the serpent"

And then all of a sudden in the OT other gods and idols were being worshiped which I also believe are demons.

And then all of a sudden when Jesus shows up evil spirits are being cast out of people for the first time in the bible.

But who has actually seen one? Some people believe Satan is living in hell but the bible says he walks to and fro about the earth. There are definitely angelic sightings in the bible as if an angel was manifested or standing in front of a person as if they were a person in the bible, but never a demon did this with people.

How are we to know how to combat the forces of darkness if we do not even know what we are up against? How do we do battle with them and keep an impenetrable fortress around us against them? Can they hear what we think? How much do they know about us? If Satan has been here since the beginning and all his forces with him or at least many of them, I would assume some have been watching me or have attempted to throughout my life.

But I still wonder if they exist. If it is just my own evil nature in me causing my own evil thoughts and desires? Is it invoked by a demon or does it spring up simply because it's in my heart?