What about those who haven’t heard?

iwbswiaihl said:

that if you confess with your mouth the LORD Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:9-10 Now how does one gets saved according to words from God? Only how He states it.

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Ye must be born again. Liars can say anything without having faith.

Oldmantook said:

On one hand it is certainly true that God's grace only comes by faith in Christ. However the second clause in your sentence (all will be condemned) is not necessarily true. John 12:32 states: And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself." We know that Jesus met the first condition as he was in fact resurrected. That condition having been met, the conclusion then is that he will draw ALL men to himself. Jesus imposed no qualifications in this verse as all means all.

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Why does He draw those who aren't going to come? Why is drawing then ineffectual?

Oldmantook said:

On one hand it is certainly true that God's grace only comes by faith in Christ. However the second clause in your sentence (all will be condemned) is not necessarily true. John 12:32 states: And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself." We know that Jesus met the first condition as he was in fact resurrected. That condition having been met, the conclusion then is that he will draw ALL men to himself. Jesus imposed no qualifications in this verse as all means all.

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In connection with John 12:32 i have some questions:

1. Are all drawn by Jesus to Himself in this life?
2. If not, will they be drawn to Him after death? And if yes, is there afterlife salvation?
3. In the case of those who left this life as unsaved unaccountable children & adults, will Jesus draw them to Himself in the afterlife?
4. Will they be given a choice to reject or accept Him then?
5. If yes, is there afterlife salvation available for such?

Lets look at 3 ways that God's Word allows for the possibility of ultimate salvation for those have never heard the Gospel:

(1) In Romans Paul addresses the question of the redemptive possibilities for those who have not been exposed to the Law or the Bible and therefore have never heard the Gospel: "When Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively what the Law requires,...they show that what the Law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness (2:14-15)." These pagans can be saved simply by "patiently doing good" and by seeking "for glory, honor, and immortality:" "To those who by patiently doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality He will give eternal life (2:7)." Why? Because "sin is not imputed where there is no Law (5:13)." Notice carefully that these pagans "seek for glory, honor, and immortality," but do not know enough to seek for salvation by grace through faith in Christ's finished atonement. Thus, Paul can say this about those who have never heard the Gospel: "God has overlooked the times of human ignorance (Acts 17:30)." These are now required to repent when and only when they hear and grasp the Gospel.

(2) But even the wicked dead in Hades can receive a 2nd chance to get saved:
"He (Christ) or this went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey (1 Peter 3:19-20)."
The phrase "a proclamation to the spirits is prison" is picked up in 4:6 by the phrase, ""the Gospel was proclaimed even to the dead" and it is now made clear that they are allowed to respond to the Gospel and be saved (= "live in the spirit"):

"For this reason, the Gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh, as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does (4:6)."

(3) Proxy baptism for the unsaved dead can be part of the process by which God becomes "everything to everyone" and by which they too can ultimately be saved:

...so that God may be everything to everyone (or: all in all"). Otherwise, what will those people do who receive baptism in behalf of the dead? If the dead are not baptized at all, why are they baptized on their behalf (1 Corinthians 15:28-29)?"

The word "otherwise" is key: in other words, if God is not ultimately going to "be everything to everyone," what is the point of proxy baptism for the sinful dead?"

Mark Corbett said:

How do you reconcile the idea that they can be saved without hearing the Name of Jesus with Paul's rhetorical question in Romans 10?

NIV Romans 10:14b And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? ​

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I think anyone who's heard the name and understood what it means- who knows who He is-would be be expected to profess that name, just as they'd, similarly, be expected to be unashamed of the gospel. Either way I don't base Christian theology on a verse or two. Whoever does God's will the best they can with the knowledge they have are for Him rather than against Him. The more knowledge they have the greater their opportunity to respond, and also the more culpability they will have for not responding. And as others have said, talk can be cheap anyway.

I trust that the same merciful God who sent Christ to save a miserable wretch like me is the same merciful God who desires the salvation of all--and that He will act in accordance with His character as the just, loving, and kind God who is revealed to us in Jesus Christ our Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

Phoebe Ann said:

Ye must be born again. Liars can say anything without having faith.

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That would be true but God would not be fooled.

For it is appointed unto all men once to die and after this the judgment Heb 9:27. How can a young man cleanse his way by taking heed according to the word, Ps 119:9 and Rom 10:8-13 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” I am the way, the truth and the light, no one comes to the Father but by Me John 14:6. Gal 1:6-9 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Some of these answers IMO tend to flow from soil where the Word has taken deep root. Jesus came to reveal the Father-the true nature and will of God. This knowledge is more than head knowledge, but has to do with, in addition, growth in "the knowledge of God", knowing Him in the direct sense. This is the knowledge man now lacks at birth; this is the knowledge man was always intended to have, and this knowledge, inseparable from faith, inevitably produces love of God, and of our fellow man. And this same love, I believe, is the very nature of God, and He "will act in accordance with His character as the just, loving, and kind God who is revealed to us in Jesus Christ our Lord", to quote Via Crucis, meaning IMO, that He will not allow those who've not heard the Word but who nonetheless strive to lead good lives to burn eternally in hell. Such would be inconsistent with the character of God. In Catholicism this lack of knowledge of God's Word is called "invincible ignorance", an ignorance that one is not responsible for having.

I think a problem that clouds the issue are theologies that place way too much emphasis on man's unworthiness, on his automatic deserving of hell. "Unsaved" then means to be evil, a rabid sinner, no righteousness at all, instead of recognizing it more as the state of "lostness", ignorance of and separation from God, man's Creator, apart from Whom man can do nothing but with Whom all things are possible. Man, in this sense, is unrighteous only because he lacks communion with God, through Whom all righteousness flows. As man approaches God via faith, in response to grace, the knowledge of God begins to grow and with it relationship blossoms, as is the right order of things for man. God pines for man's soul, for his rectitude, for his justice which is restored as man turns back to God, forfeiting his pride for the humility that then brings exaltation from God.

God's image is already impressed in man's soul. As perhaps a dim memory we already know the God whom we may prefer to stay apart from. But we may also respond to whatever knowledge we have, groping in the dark so to speak towards that light, towards that truth, towards that goodness, towards that love. And I see people all the time who live their lives as if they know God when they have little or no formal knowledge of Him; I don't automatically default into questioning human goodness and compassion and self-sacrifice when I observe it coming from a non-Christian source.

~Anastasia~ said:

Sorry, I did earlier.

Here's part of it ...

The early Christians - the ones who recognized the documents accepted as Scripture as being true and had a part in their canonization - took them to mean what they say.

That Christ descended into Hades (not hell, that's a poor translation), which is the place of the dead. That He preached to the spirits there. They left off the verse that also says He led captivity captive ... in other words He freed those souls that had been captive in Hades.

That's what the Scripture says, and that's what the early Christians took it to mean.

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Thanks for that. Could you also please list all the scriptures that you are referring to in this?

iwbswiaihl said:

That would be true but God would not be fooled.

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I know that God isn't fooled, but it can happen and we can be fooled.

ClementofA said:

In connection with John 12:32 i have some questions:

1. Are all drawn by Jesus to Himself in this life?
2. If not, will they be drawn to Him after death? And if yes, is there afterlife salvation?
3. In the case of those who left this life as unsaved unaccountable children & adults, will Jesus draw them to Himself in the afterlife?
4. Will they be given a choice to reject or accept Him then?
5. If yes, is there afterlife salvation available for such?

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1. No
2. Yes; yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes

New American Standard Bible
There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

King James Bible
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Does Christ Himself "enlighten" (Jn.1:9) every man in this life?

Phoebe Ann said:

Why does He draw those who aren't going to come? Why is drawing then ineffectual?

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Drawing is not ineffectual. The word "draw" is from the Greek word helkó which literally means "drag." God will drag all men unto himself. This word picture is like the dragging of a fishing net. God is the ultimate fisher of men. This verse does not state WHEN God will helkó all men - only the fact that He will indeed do it. What God wills, he will indeed accomplish - if not in this lifetime - then in the next.

fhansen said:

And this same love, I believe, is the very nature of God, and He "will act in accordance with His character as the just, loving, and kind God who is revealed to us in Jesus Christ our Lord", to quote Via Crucis, meaning IMO, that He will not allow those who've not heard the Word but who nonetheless strive to lead good lives to burn eternally in hell. Such would be inconsistent with the character of God. In Catholicism this lack of knowledge of God's Word is called "invincible ignorance", an ignorance that one is not responsible for having.

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I am remarking to this part that I show above: and I underlined it for reference only; You speak of those who strive to lead good lives and ignorance that one is not responsible for having, first off there is none that does good, none seek after God, Rom 3:9-12 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.10 As it is written:“There is none righteous, no, not one;11 There is none who understands;There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” Does none righteous and none that seek after God none that does good no, not one. What does none mean? How can anyone who has no faith please God and do good when in the flesh? God's word says directly, those that are in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:7. Also, Heb 11:6 without faith it is impossible to please God, for they must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those that seek Him. This is done when hearing the word of God and the Holy Spirit is convicting them of their sin and need for a Savior, who alone, is Jesus Christ. John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

[/QUOTE]I think a problem that clouds the issue are theologies that place way too much emphasis on man's unworthiness, on his automatic deserving of hell.[/QUOTE]

How can one disagree with what GOD says about mankind that is in His word specifically? Who is telling who what God requires? Is it Him or man? I mention again, read those verses in Rom 3:9-12 and tell me who is excluded in the passage until they come to faith in Jesus Christ. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light to my path Ps 119:105 the faithful saint will be one who lives according to the word of God. John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

ClementofA said:

New American Standard Bible
There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

King James Bible
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Does Christ Himself "enlighten" (Jn.1:9) every man in this life?

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What does this passage say every living being knows and who said it? Rom 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Phoebe Ann said:

I know that God isn't fooled, but it can happen and we can be fooled.

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So true and remember the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:29-31 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Isaiah, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. God sent Phillip to this man who was seeking Him and showed him the way and you even post on each post how you have been drawn to Him from the LDS, it was Him speaking to your heart and drawing you to himself. In the same way, when He draws the world, those who believe Him get saved and those who love the world reject Him, but Jesus is the light of the world and as John also wrote in John 1: 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Oldmantook said:

Drawing is not ineffectual. The word "draw" is from the Greek word helkó which literally means "drag." God will drag all men unto himself. This word picture is like the dragging of a fishing net. God is the ultimate fisher of men. This verse does not state WHEN God will helkó all men - only the fact that He will indeed do it. What God wills, he will indeed accomplish - if not in this lifetime - then in the next.

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Are you saying He saves them in the next life?