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Featured What about Ezekiel 37:10 "breath of life, they stand on feet" Reve 11:11

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, Mar 21, 2019.

  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Zionist Dispensationalist poppycock.................

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/m/millennial-reign-of-christ.html

    "the SOULS of those that were BEHEADED.. which had not worshipped the Beast.. neither had received his mark.. lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

    Hampden-Cook on Millennium | Concerning the Millennium | A Dissuasive From the Errors of the Time - The thousand years of Christ his visible Reign upon earth, is against Scripture | Millennium | History of Millennialism | Chiliasm in the Early Church | Christian Millennial Expectations through the centuries "the 1,000 is not to be taken literally, but figuratively, and the millennial kingdom is already alive in the Christian Church. This means that all the events described in Revelation had already taken place"
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  2. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Great so you agree that God would make Ephraim into many nations.
    Genesis 48:19 But his father refused. “I know, my son, I know!” he said. “He too shall become a people, and he too shall be great; nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations.”

    God divorced the house of Israel (Ephraim) and exiled her by the Assyrians.
    Jeremiah 3:8 Because faithless Israel had committed adultery, I gave her a certificate of divorce and sent her away. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear and prostituted herself as well.

    And the house of Israel (Ephraim) became "not My people".
    Hosea 1:8 After she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, Gomer conceived and gave birth to a son. 9And the LORD said, “Name him Lo-ammi,c for you are not My people, and I am not your God.

    Then over 700 years of mixing genetically, socially, culturally, and religiously, many of the house of Israel (Ephraim) would no longer be distinctly Israel, but "many nations".

    BUT God did promise that one day, they would again be his people, and that the children of the house of Israel would be more than that of the house of Judah.

    Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the Israelites will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’

    Isaiah 54:1 Shout for joy, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth into song and cry aloud, you who have never travailed; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband,”

    God promised that when they would be His people again, they (Ephraim) would be gathered together with the house of Judah under one Head.
    Hosea 1:11 Then the people of Judah and of Israel will be gathered together, and they will appoint for themselves one head, and will go up out of the land. For great will be the day of Jezreel.

    This is equivalent to Ezekiel's passage of the 2 nations becoming one under one king.
    Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms.

    ***Paul has all of this fulfilled in the first century

    Christ is head over one body.

    Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior

    Through the cross, Christ made one new man out of two (Jew and gentile).
    Ephesians 2:14-15 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility

    galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    As Ephraim had been scattered for 700 years, Paul reveals that the northern kingdom being rejoined to the southern kingdom is fulfilled by including the gentiles in the body of Christ.
    Romans 9:24-25 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”

    This was a mystery not known to other generations
    Ephesians 3:4-6 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

    And thus the children of Ephraim became more than the children of the house of Judah through the new covenant.
    Galatians 4:25-27 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud,
    you who have never travailed; because more are the children of the desolate woman, than of her who has a husband.”

    ***This is the basic premise of Ezekiel 37, that the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom would be joined together as one people, under one king, who is one shepherd over all of them. This is where God would cleanse them from sin and make his sanctuary in the midst of the people forever. All of this can be demonstrated as fulfilled in the first century via the writings of Paul.

    There are 2 main things from Ezekiel 37 that are mentioned nowhere in the NT.
    1.) the Literal David being the prince of Israel.
    2.) Israel again inhabiting the physical land of Israel.

    What is mentioned in the NT is that
    1.) Christ is the king, the one shepherd, the one head

    matthew 21:4-5 This took place to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet, saying,“Say to the daughter of Zion,‘Behold, your king is coming to you,humble, and mounted on a donkey, on a colt,a the foal of a beast of burden.’”
    Acts 17:7 And Jason has received them, and they are all acting against the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.”
    Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
    John 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
    Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior


    2.) the heavenly country is the true promise land
    Galatians 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
    Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering
    Hebrews 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one.
    Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
    2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
    2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord will rescue me from every evil action and bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom.

    The conditional promises of the Law do not annul the unconditional promises to Abraham, because Jesus is the seed to whom the unconditional promises (plural) were spoken to. Thus the promise land was conditional under the Law of Moses to the Israelites, but the promise land was unconditionally given to Christ.
    Galatians 3:16-17 The promises (plural) were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”g meaning One, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to cancel the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise.

    Jesus was made Lord and the earth is his. This includes the promise land.
    Acts 2:36 Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”

    1 Corinthians 10:26 For “the earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof.”


    Consistency. You are going to have to explain why and how you draw line for the land being literal but David being figurative for Christ.

    Ezekiel 37:25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever.

    As "raining cats and dogs" is an idiom, your argument only works if Ezekiel 37:25 is an idiom. And if it is an idiom how is David my servant another term for living in the land?

    Ezekiel 37:25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever.


    My argument is that David is figurative for Christ, and the land is figurative for the heavenly Jerusalem. This would consistent.

    Can you provide one NT scripture that specifically states Jesus will reign from the physical earthly promise land to support your argument?

    I would argue to fulfill scripture that he must suffer, die, and rise on the 3rd day.

    Doesn't Ezekiel 37 indicate David will be their king, Why doubt a literal view of David as king then? If David doesn't have to be literal, then neither does the land in view of Ezekiel 37:25.

    So we should turn to NT scripture for support. What NT scripture states the present physical earthly land is the eternal promise land?
     
  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Is the OT not holy writ as well? If some of these things are already provided in detail in the OT, why would the NT need to go into detail as well?

    What some of you I think are not grasping, is this.

    Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.


    wherein your fathers have dwelt---so what land was this meaning? Was it meaning spiritual land of some kind that doesn't literally exist? Or does it mean literal land with literal borders somewhere on this planet? Whatever one concludes here, to be consistent, they have to also apply to the land they shall dwell in forever, the fact it is this very same land where their fathers dwelt.

    If someone's forefathers dwelt in Texas, and that someone told their future ancestors, that they and their children's children shall dwell in this same land, who in their right mind would take the former literally but not the latter as well? Why would it be any different in Ezekiel 37:25? The only way it could be different, the land where their fathers dwelt, this land is not meaning in the literal sense. But if it is meaning in the literal sense, then every mention of land in Ezekiel 37:25 has to be taken in the literal sense. That just seems like common sense to me. I don't know why it wouldn't to someone else though?
     
  4. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are the one who is not grasping. I'm sorry, but there is nothing conservative about loose, immoderate, speculative, inconsistent and incautious doctrines. That's the very epitome of liberal. This doctrine conserves nothing of what is written, it doesn't guard against loss, nor keep God's unadulterated word from humanistic interpretations or corruption by false teaching ministers, TV preachers and political or YouTube pundits. Nor is it Christian, because it isn't in any way in agreement with the teachings of the Kingdom of Christ. It is decidedly unscholarly, primarily Premillennarian/Dispensational, and utterly unbiblical. It's clearly untenable when "honestly" compared with all the relevant Scriptures.

    Luke 1:68-69
    • "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    • And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;"
    It's not something that is to be done sometime in the future, it's something Christ did by His death and resurrection. Israel has been visited to be redeemed, and she has been set free. You may certainly believe that a return of natural Jews to a piece of "promised land" in modern Israel is the bible prophecy of the restoration, and is necessary for Jesus to reign on earth as king, but the Biblical facts are that such ideology contradicts God's word that He has already come to earth, already sought and found the lost sheep of the house of Israel, already brought peace to Jerusalem, already restored Israel in the New Covenant and already reigns as its king. He's already done all the things that the prophets foretold from freeing or returning the captivity to comforting and bringing peace to Jerusalem. He's already said again and again, the children of the flesh are not the children of the promise, and that He is not a Jew that is one outwardly! Period! But of course, your group continues to deny Christ in declaring Him wrong in this regard. In your blindness, you continue to reject this truth of Him being no respecter of persons, and retort against Him that Jews are indeed Jews outwardly, and the children of Israel are indeed the children of the flesh Israel and they deserve a literal land. Are you not the same as the children of Israel who in the same blindness killed the prophets? Who also Killed Christ for not coming as a king of the earthly kingdom that they had all so blindly anticipated? They wanted the type King and Kingdom you espouse, and because Christ didn't give it to them they turned on Him and had Him killed. Was it their wicked ways in misunderstanding of prophesy, or was it their obstinate heart, or did it matter when Christ brought Judgment upon them all for it?

    Matthew 23:31-32
    • "Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
    • Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers."
    And you do so seemingly without concern for the authority of the Word, without conscience and without remorse--as did many of Israel who went before you looking for an earthly reign and kingdom. Indeed, as those who killed both the prophets and Christ because they spoke of the righteousness of a diverse Kingdom that one of this earth. Are you not then still carnal? Are you not then the seed of rather than Isaac? For in Isaac shall the seed be called. As it is written:

    Romans 9:7-8
    • "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    • That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
    God is no respecter of persons, the flesh means nothing concerning being children of God, the Spirit means everything. We are the children of the promise that are counted for the seed (Galatians 4:23,29,31), for we are born by virtue of the promise. And no, you won't see a physical promised land in that promise where Christ is our servant David.
     
  5. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Unless you want to claim the OT is not holy writ, but that only the NT is, your interpretation of some of these things render passages in the OT, such as Ezekiel 37:25, nonsensical. I provided an analogy. Use that analogy to prove your point. Show via this analogy how Texas, which is land, is not to be taken literally, or that the former is, but not the latter as well.

    If someone's forefathers dwelt in Texas, and that someone told their future ancestors, that they and their children's children shall dwell in this same land---prove your point about Ezekiel 37:25 with this analogy. But if you can't, and I'm certain you can't, just admit you don't grasp the full meaning of Ezekiel 37:25. God is the speaker in Ezekiel 37:25. We all agree God is not a liar. So why do some of you want to make Him out to be one by not believing what God clearly said in Ezekiel 37:25?
     
  6. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is a head-in-the-sand philosophy. The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. Do you deny Luke 1:68-69 as fulfilled prophecy? Ezekiel 37 was fulfilled in Christ! He is our servant David, and our land is not some physical land over there in the Middle East. It is a heavenly Jerusalem.
     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Nowhere does the Bible say we Christians will go to live in heaven.
    Is God going to relinquish His holy Land to Satan? Never and plenty of prophecy proves it:
    Isaiah 62:10 Hoist a signal to the peoples, clear a road, go out you people of Zion.
    Isaiah 49:11-12 I shall make a highway for My people, they come from every direction.
    Isaiah 40:1-4 Comfort My people, their penalty is paid. Prepare a highway through the waste lands, make smooth the way.

    Micah 2:12 I shall assemble the whole House of Jacob [Israel] and gather you like sheep into a sheep yard, the Lord will lead the way.
    The same as before: 1 Corinthians 10:4

    Ezekiel 34:11-12 Now I will search for My sheep...where they are scattered on the Day of wrath.

    Hosea 8:10 I will now round up My people....

    Zechariah 8:7-8 I am about to rescue My people, from all the countries they are in and bring them back to live in Zion. They will be My people and I will be their God.

    Isaiah 60:1-9 Jerusalem, your Light will shine on you, your sons and daughters are coming back to you. Vessels assemble to bring your children from far away.

    Jeremiah 16:15-16 I shall hunt for My people from wherever they are now dispersed and bring them back to the Land that I gave to their forefathers.

    Zechariah 10:8-10 I shall whistle to call in My people, for I have delivered them and they will be as many as they used to be. Though dispersed among the nations, they will remember Me. I will lead them into the Land until there is no more room for them.

    Isaiah 52:11-12 Go out of Babylon, [the ungodly nations] keep yourselves pure, you will not leave like fugitives or in urgent haste. The Lord will go before you, to guide and guard you.

    Isaiah 66:20 From every nation you will be brought, on every kind of transport... Psalms 107

    Isaiah 35:8-10 A highway will appear, the Way of Holiness, by that way all those the Lord has redeemed will enter Zion, with shouts of triumph and great joy.

    Isaiah 49:9-13 I will lead My people along paths beside streams, they will neither hunger or thirst, nor will scorching heat affect them. They come, some from far away, in every direction, on level highways, for the Lord comforts them in their distress.

    Jeremiah 31:8-9 See how I bring My people from every part of the earth, the blind, lame and pregnant women among them. They are a vast company, weeping as they come home, but I shall comfort them and lead them on smooth paths.

    Isaiah 30:21 A voice from behind you will tell you the right path to follow.

    Isaiah 58:11-12 The Lord will be your guide and will satisfy your needs in the desert. You will rebuild the ruins, you will be called the restorers of the Land.

    Ezekiel 39:25-29 I will show compassion and restore all Israel, they will live once more in their homeland, free from their enemies. I will leave none of them behind.

    Ezekiel 20:42 You will know that I am the Lord, [not present as yet, before the Return of Jesus] when I bring you home to the Land of Israel. The Land I swore to give to your ancestors.

    Psalm 68:7-10 Lord, You go before Your people, marching through the barren wastelands. When Your Land languishes You restore it. You send rain and there Your people settle. In Your goodness, You provide for the needy.

    Hosea 2:14-23 Now, I shall woo them and lead them into the wilderness, I will restore them ......they will be My new sowing in the Land. I will say: ‘You are My people’ and they will say: ‘ You are our God’. Romans 9:24-26
    [The Lord is not seen – the same as the 1st Exodus]

    Micah 7:11-12 The Day the people return to the Land will be a Day to extend your boundaries.

    Ezekiel 36:8-12 The Land will become fruitful and the whole House of Israel will settle there, they will increase, more prosperous then in ancient days.
    Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.
    Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.
     
  8. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Prove your point with the analogy I provided then. The analogy is the same concept presented in Ezekiel 37:25. Let me break it down for you and show you.



    If someone's forefathers dwelt in Texas, and that someone told their future ancestors, that they and their children's children shall dwell in this same land

    Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant


    If someone's forefathers dwelt in Texas----wherein your fathers have dwelt

    and that someone told their future ancestors, that they and their children's children shall dwell in this same land----And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant--and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever


    How is it, that in the analogy the land is meaning literal throughout, but in Ezekiel 37:25 it isn't meaning literal land throughout?

    An interpretation couldn't possibly be correct if it renders something connected to it nonsensical.

    Even though I don't agree with claninja on everything, I do find that he's not the type who avoids things, thus tries his best to address alleged problems, rather than avoiding them altogether. Maybe he will be able to show me via my analogy how the land in Ezekiel 37:25 isn't meaning literal land throughout?
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  9. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    People like you could not understand the Old Covenant versus the New, or that the law was dead in the New Covenant kingdom of Christ. They didn't understand that only in Christ's house, in Christ's body, is Israel actually set free from captivity and able to enter into the promised land. This was also prefigured in Moses death (law) when the children of Israel physically entered into the physical land promised them. As a type of Christ, it could only be after the death of Moses "signifying" the move from law to grace, as He was was a portrait of Christ.

    Joshua 1:1-2
    • "Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
    • Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel."
    Likewise, we are dead to the law, and thus are free in the body of Christ to enter into the Spiritual promised land of Israel.
     
  10. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are working too hard by emphasizing Ezekiel 37:25 as literal using as your example with Texas. That is not how we understand this way. There is nothing more I can do for you because you will not "receive" the Truth that the land the Lord talked about is not what you think it is but a type of a promised land we all inherited in Christ.

    The reason is that people like you "wrongly" equated the promises of God to Israel to promises of a physical land and a physical (worldly) kingdom just as the Judaisers and Premillennarians do today. Nevertheless, the Kingdom promised and given to the New Covenant Israel (taken from them) was not a physical land nor kingdom, or of a physical reign in physical Jerusalem, but the true promised land which the physical merely foreshadowed. Israel is spiritual making up of all elect, both Gentiles and Jews from Old and New Testament in Christ. But sadly, today, many are still looking at the natural Jews, land, nation, city, Kingdom, temple, and mountains in prophecy, are likewise missing the whole point. Just as their fathers did in their measuring!

    1st Corinthians 2:14
    • "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
     
  11. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    In the event I am wrong and you are right about Ezekiel 37:25, then why aren't you able to prove this with Ezekiel 37:25 itself, and with the analogy I provided? Maybe I missed it, but did you ever show anywhere, that in Ezekiel 37:25, the land where their fathers dwelt, that this isn't meaning literal land with literal borders somewhere on this planet? But if you agree it is, how can my analogy possibly not be undeniably proving that every mention of land in Ezekiel 37:25 is meaning literal land with literal borders somewhere on this planet? BTW, I shouldn't even need to use an analogy in this case. The text in Ezekiel 37:25 already makes it abundantly clear that literal land with literal borders somewhere on this planet is what is meant throughout that verse.
     
  12. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    The OT is holy writ, I agree.

    Just because something is written in detail doesn't mean it's understood properly. Jesus had to open up the minds of the disciples to understand scripture.

    Luke 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.

    Thus, the proper interpretation of the OT should come through the writings of the NT.

    Did the apostles teach an earthly land inheritance? If they don't, we should be leery of anyone who does.

    Galatians 1:8 even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

    in the context of Ezekiel 37, The physical earthly land of Israel.

    Since David is not to be literally taken as David, but to be understood as Jesus, then I also take the promise land to not mean the literal promise land but to be understood as the heavenly country.

    Ezekiel 37:25 They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live there forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever

    The fathers were strangers and exiles in the promise land. Even king David recognized he was a stranger and exile while ruling in the promise land.

    Ezekiel 37:25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived.

    1 Chronicles 29:15 For we are strangers before you and sojourners, as all our fathers were.


    Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob all lived in the promise land, as in a foreign land. They were seeking a home, and if they were thinking of the land of Ur, they could have returned, but they were seeking a heavenly country whose builder is God.

    Hebrews 11:9-10 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

    Hebrews 11:13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one.

    the heavenly country is antitype of the type (earthly promise land).
    Galatians 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
    Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering
    Hebrews 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one.
    Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
    2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
    2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord will rescue me from every evil action and bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom.

    The literal law of Moses, with all its "eternal" statutes was the type, it's fulfillment in Christ the antitype.

    Hebrews 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near

    The "eternal" literal land of Israel under the old covenant was the type, it's fulfillment in Christ the antitype

    Hebrews 4:8-10 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

    This analogy doesn't quite address all of the complexities. John promised the land to his grandson, when he would turn 18. Presently His grandson is only 1. So he writes a contract that his sons and daughters get to have the land as well, as long as they work it. If they don't work the land, they get kicked off. The promise to the grandson was unconditional, but the promise to the sons and daughters was conditional.

    The conditional promises of the land in the old covenant do not annul the unconditional promises to the land given to Abraham, because the offspring is not plural but singular: Jesus.

    galatians 3:16-17 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

    National Israel, under the old covenant, could never fully be obedient, thus they could never eternally inhabit the land. And because God found fault in the people, as they could not be obedient, he made the old covenant obsolete (with all its promises to national Israel) and set up the new covenant which has BETTER promises.


    Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second

    Hebrews 8:6 But as it is, Christb has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

    Jesus said you have to born again to see the kingdom of heaven. If I told you that you don't literally have to go through your mother's womb a 2nd time, would you say that I am making Jesus out to be a liar?
     
  13. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You can insist with Ezekiel 37:25 until you are blue in the face because it is nothing but their Jewish fables and myths of a prophecy of restored physical lands. These age-old fictions, wrapped up in New Testament Christian clothing, they have no REAL basis in biblical eschatology. The verse does not talk about a physical land when recognized with the rest of Scripture with verses I have quoted earlier. The real question is where are the souls of the forefathers now after they have died? Where is their father Abraham now?

    Genesis 13:14-17
    • "And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
    • For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
    • And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
    • Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee."
    Forever is a long time. But the fact is, if God gave the physical land to The nation Israel forever, unconditionally, then God has broken His Promise/Covenant, now hasn't He? Can't you understand this?!

    And in reality, we should also know by simple Biblical reasoning and logic that the literal land could not have been the land that God promised "Abraham and his Seed" in Genesis chapter 13. Because if it was, then God broke that Promise, as Abraham never received that literal land. Selah! Note that in this passage, God didn't say to your "descendants" I will give this land, even though man says that. No, God said to "Abraham and his Seed He would give it. And God tells us the Seed in view is Christ. Moreover, that Promise/Covenant of necessity included Abraham in the deal. Ergo, the land that Abraham saw, the land that he was told to look north, south, east and west from (Revelation 21:13), the land that he was told to "rise" and walk through the length and breath of it (Revelation 21:16), the land of the Promise/Covenant, he saw through Spiritual eyes. ..was a Spiritual land, a spiritual country wherein dwells righteousness. And he RECEIVED that land that was Promised Him. But not this sin cursed land on this sin cursed earth. His Promise/Covenant made on earth, in reality was established in Christ after death. Thus, it had nothing to do with the literal, or rather physical land. It was to Abraham and his Seed (as of one, SINGULAR), which God tells us, spoke of Christ! Genesis 13 speaks of Seed, not "descendant/s" as has been unrighteously translated.

    Hebrews 11:13-19
    • "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
    • For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
    • And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
    • But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
    • By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,[
    • Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
    • Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."
    Even as Abraham confessed himself (Genesis 23:4) a stranger and a sojourner among men, signifying that his very literal pilgrimage foreshadowed this life as a pilgrimage towards the Promise of land that will be ours forever. And it won't be a physical land with border you hoped for!
     
  14. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    What I'm mainly disputing is, that it appears some of you are not taking this land in the literal sense, unless I have been misunderstanding some of you or something. Meaning the land where they shall be dwelling forever, that it's actually regional and is actually meaning in the ME in the promised land.

    What about Adam and Eve, for instance? Were they not dwelling in a specific region somewhere on this planet in the garden of Eden? Now suppose they had not even fallen, thus were still physically alive yet today. Do you think they would still be living in this same garden? Or do you think they would likely have relocated to numerous places over time, and maybe even moved out of the area altogether? The reason I bring this hypothetical up is because this is basically how I see the NJ in the future. It will be regionally situated like the garden of Eden was, and that Revelation 21-22 seems to indicate that is where saints will be taking up residence forever because that is where Christ will be taking up residence forever. So I take the land in Ezekiel 37:25 to be the same region where the NJ will be regionally situated.








    I don't see this being a good example for the point you are trying to make. It's plainly obvious Jesus couldn't be meaning in the literal sense. In Ezekiel 37:25 it is perfectly natural to take all mentions of the land in that verse in the literal sense. IOW it doesn't render that verse nonsensical to do so. But it does tend to render it nonsensical if one doesn't take every mention of land in that verse in the literal sense though.
     
  15. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    the land is literal in the unconditional promises to Abraham and his offspring: Jesus.

    Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed, meaning One, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to cancel the promise.


    The land is also literal in the conditional promises to the nation of Israel under the old covenant.

    Deuteronomy 28:8 The LORD will decree a blessing on your barns and on everything to which you put your hand; the LORD your God will bless you in the land He is giving you.

    The literal land promises given to the nation of Israel were conditional on obedience. If they disobeyed, they would be exterminated from the land.

    Deuteronomy 28:21 The LORD will make the pestilence cling to you until He has exterminated you from the land you are entering to possess.

    However, the old covenant ended, as foretold and predestined by God through Israel's disobedience:

    Hebrews 8:7-8For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. But God found fault with the people and said:

    Hebrews 8:13 By speaking of a new covenant,c He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

    Thus the conditional land promises under the old covenant were done away with, and better promises were instituted under the new covenant.

    Hebrews 8:6 Now, however, Jesus has received a much more excellent ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is better and is founded on better promises.

    So now, when read through the prophets, we don't read with eyes veiled through the old covenant. Instead we interpret the promises, written during the old covenant by the prophets, with eyes unveiled through the new covenant as revealed by the Spirit.

    Why do none of the NT epistles mention the present earthly land of Israel as an eternal destination?

    So an earthly example:

    John owns a piece of land in texas. He unconditionally promises it to his grandson to inherit when the grandson turns 18. Presently the Grandson is 1. John writes up another land contract to his sons and daughters that is conditional: they may live on the land as long as they work it. At first his sons and daughters work the land, but then they get tired and stop working the land. They are then kicked off the land and John ends the conditional contract with them. The grandsons then inherits the land at age 18. This conditional contract given to the sons and daughters does not annul the unconditional promise to the grandson.

    So to is it with Jesus. As stated in Galatians, Jesus is the seed to whom the promises of Abraham were spoken. The addition of the law 430 years later does not annul the unconditional promises to Jesus. He is still the one to bless the nations and possess the land.

    "the earth is the Lord's and fullness there of" and Jesus "was made Lord and Christ" therefore the earth, which includes the promise land is his.

    The New Jerusalem is the body of Christ. both the New jerusalem and body of Christ are where God dwell, both the new Jerusalem and the body of Christ are built on the foundation of the apostles, both the new jerusalem and the body of Christ are the bride of Jesus.


    You are partially reading through the prophets as if the old covenant still existed, instead of fully seeing the spiritual truth they point to under the new covenant. In one sense you understand that the picture (david) points to Jesus, just like the being born again points to becoming a new creation through Christ. But in another sense you see the land as literal and pointing to literal land: being born again pointing to literally coming through your mother's womb a second time.

    Remember, the unconditional promises are to Christ. The conditional promises under the old covenant no longer exist, because the old covenant was made obsolete. We are now under the new covenant which has better promises. These better promises were foretold by the prophets, but they can't be properly understood by superficially reading. They can only be understood through the spirit. Thus, we should look to the NT for proper interpretation.

    Where do the epistles mention the present land of Israel as the eternal destination?
     
  16. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    duplicate post
     
  17. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    duplicate post
     
  18. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    I will give the Land to new owners:

    Zephaniah 3:1-8 Woe to the place of oppression, filthy and defiled, they heed no warning voice and ignore God’s rebukes. They won’t take correction or place their trust in their Creator. Their leaders have no concern for the people and prophet and priest alike profane the Holy Scriptures.

    The Lord has judged and punished them before, their land laid waste and the towns deserted and He thought: surely now they will fear Me and will accept instruction, but they continue on in their evil deeds and they show no shame for it.
    Judah has been punished by Babylon and by Rome.

    Therefore: look out for Me, for the Day when I will stand up to witness against you, on the Day that I execute justice upon the nations, for I will pour out My fierce anger and the whole earth will be enveloped by the fire of My wrath.
    This will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath against the nations. Prophesied in the Bible over 100 times. 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17, +


    Zephaniah 3:11-13 On that Day, Jerusalem, I shall wipe away your shame for all the transgressions committed in you, for I shall remove all your proud and arrogant citizens, only the humble and peaceful people will remain and those who never practice evil or speak lies, they will settle in the Land and nothing will disturb them.
    This is the great Second Exodus of all of God’s people into all of the holy Land. Every faithful Christian: a vast multitude from every tribe, race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Romans 9:24=26, Revelation 7:9


    Zephaniah 3:9-10 They will all know a pure language, so everyone will know the true Name of the Lord and will praise Him with one accord. My worshippers, all the righteous people will come from afar to worship the Lord and bring offerings to Him. People from every race, nation and language, all the born again Christian people, will travel there to live, in the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, while the rest of the world is ruled by a One World Government. Daniel 7:23, Revelation 17:12


    Zephaniah 3:14-17 Daughter of Jerusalem; sing for joy! For the Lord has taken away your punishments and has cast out your enemies. Now the Lord is with you and you need never again fear disaster.

    On the Day of the Lord’s wrath; This is the message for My people: Fear not, stand firm in your faith, your God will keep you safe and will rejoice over you.
    Ref: REB, CJB, KJV. Some verses condensed and paraphrased.

    This chapter of Zephaniah encapsulates the soon to happen end times story.
    It tells how Jerusalem is denigrated by its ungodly inhabitants and will rejoice when they are gone. How those enemies of the Lord, the evil neighbors, Jeremiah 12:14, and all who reject the Salvation of Jesus, will be uprooted, then the holy Land resettled by the Lord’s faithful believers. Ezekiel 34:11-31 tells it plainly.

    Jeremiah 7:30-34 & 8:1-13 The people of Judah have done wrong, they worship idols and have no regard for their Creator....Therefore, the time is coming when I shall fill the valley of Topeth with their corpses.......All the survivor’s of this wicked race, from wherever I have banished them, would rather die than live. Isaiah 22:14

    ...Judah is incurable in their waywardness......I listen, but I hear not one word of remorse ....My people do not know the Judgements of the Lord. How can you say: We are wise and we have the Law of God, when your scribes and priests have falsified it? The wise are shamed and where is wisdom in them?

    Therefore I will give their wives to others and give their land to new owners, for all of their prophets and priests are frauds....on My Day of reckoning, they will fall with a great crash. I shall surely consume them says the Lord and there will be no grapes on the vine, [Israel] and no figs on the fig tree. [Judah]


    We Christians are told by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5, that we should know God’s plans for what will happen in the near future. Zephaniah 3 gives it to us, confirmed by the sequence of Revelation chapters 6-7.
    What is presented in these scriptures, is God’s Promises to His faithful people, His blessings of peace and prosperity, of joy and happiness, of security and long life, for all who love Him and keep the Commandments; will live in His Land.

    It is the prophetic parallel of ancient Israel, where Jesus led the people through the desert and how most of them refused to accept the Promise. 1 Corinthians 10:6-13

    Ezekiel 20:34-38 tells how, once again, some of His people will revolt and rebel and they will not enter the Land of Israel.

    In today’s situation, we have many who have accepted the Gospel, but who have chosen their own beliefs about what God intends to do for His people and during this forthcoming test, 1 Peter 4:12, they may fail to stand firm in their trust that the Lord will protect them. This won’t lose their salvation, but it will be a serious disadvantage, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

    As the great chapter of Isaiah 35:1-10, one of the many prophesies that describe the Lord’s faithful Christian people entering the holy Land, says: ...no one unclean will go there....The Lord’s people, set free: will enter Zion with shouts of triumph.
     
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