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What about Baptism?
- Thread starter cougan
- Start date
Originally posted by Auntie
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO THIS THREAD.
IT IS THREE MONTHS OLD TODAY!
I THINK IT QUALIFIES FOR THE DEAD HORSE AWARD!
I humbly accept this reward and thank God and his word...etc. Thanks for the reward Auntie but wait...
This is'nt a dead horse see:
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I think you mean "Sola Fide". I tried and tried to find a meaning to this phrase but could not. Is it Latin or spanish what is it? Is it a new term these reformers came up with to define their view of faith alone?
Do you really belive that people are saved by faith/belief alone?
What about repentence or confessing Jesus as Lord are these required to be save? I'm just curious what you mean by faith alone.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free -- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
So you would agree that a person MUST BE BAPTIZED IN ORDER TO GET INTO THE ONE BODY which is the church. If this text is talking about HS baptism then we could bodly say that a person must be baptized in the HS in order to be saved. Agree? The same would be true if this is talking about water baptism here. Agree?
As you let this sink in I want to know in your view if this HS Baptism is the same HS baptism that was poured out on Cornelius household and the apostles that ALL christians receive today?
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YES!
Jesus said, "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit!" James mirrors this in chapter 2---"Faith, if it PRODUCES no works, is dead, being by itself" Do you see what they are all saying? It's not the WORKS that makes the faith alive, it's the LIVING FAITH that produces the WORKS!
CAUSE and EFFECT, not EFFECT and CAUSE!
"For by grace have you been saved through faith and works!" Eph2:8 Wait---that's not what it says! "For by grace have you been saved through faith, NOT as a result of works!"
Jesus said, "unless you REPENT you shall PERISH" (Luke3:3) ---but this is the RESULT of faith, not the CAUSE!
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Golly, Cougan---we've already discussed this! In Matt3, John writes: "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who comes after me is mightier ...and He will BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, and with fire." This establishes ONCE AND FOR ALL (hopefully) that Holy Spirit baptism is SEPARATE from waterbaptism!
Soooo, "immersion into the Spirit" is the true meaning of "Holy-Sirit-Baptism", and it does NOT mean "water".
What then of Romans 6? "Do you not know that all who have been immersed into Christ have been immersed into His death? If we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, we certainly shall also be united in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we no longer be slaves to sin; even so, consider yourselves DEAD TO SIN, do not let sin reign in your bodies, ...do not present the members of your body to unrighteousness but present yourselves to God and your members to righteousness!" "IMMERSED into CHRIST", is interchangeable with "UNITED WITH HIM"---both in DEATH (dead to sin), and in RESURRECTION (alive to God). THIS is the ESSENCE of "BORN AGAIN", it is "Born Again", DEFINED!
The immersion into the Holy Spirit had NOTHING TO DO WITH WATER!
What about immersion into Christ? Romans6 defines and explains the concept---the old sinful man DIES, the new is BORN; we are to CONSIDER OURSELVES DEAD TO SIN, and ALIVE TO CHRIST---do you see any WATER HERE??? No! Immersion into Christ has NOTHING TO DO WITH WATER!
Waterbaptism is CONSEQUENCE of "immersion into the Spirit" and "immersion into Christ"---effect of the cause, not cause of the effect!!!
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My question was'nt to you Ben. I already know your lame response. We have already went round and round with this. If want me to I will rehash it again with you to clearly show you the flaw in your view above. Now if Apologist wants to agree with you right down the line then I will do my best to show from the bible and using good old logic to show that rom 6 and 1 cor 12:13 is talking about water baptism and not HS baptism.
Ben I sent you a PM did you not get it?
Ben I sent you a PM did you not get it?
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Not 'til just now. There's supPOSED to be a BOX that pops ("New Private Message---Open In New Window?") ---but today is one of those where the box doesn't pop. And I don't remember to check them...
Cougan, I think post #287 is well taken---we have no choice BUT to understand that "immersion into the Holy Spirit" in Matt3 has nothing to do with water (this because of the clear wording: "I baptize with WATER, but He who comes after me will baptize with the Holy Spirit!") THus, salvation is IMMERSION INTO THE HOLY SPIRIT.
This mirrored by John3, where Jesus said "you must be BORN AGAIN---born of flesh/water ("water" is "hudor---fundamental element", verse 6 repeats verse 5,
flesh = water here), AND born of the Spirit!" Spiritual rebirth is PART AND PARCEL of salvation.
And then in Romans 6, it says "united with Him in likeness of death, certainly united in likeness of resurrection!" Romans 6 speaks of the old sin-person, DYING, and the new righteous person BEING BORN; isn't this saying EXACTLY what Jesus said in Jn3? Isn't this, "Born Again", defined?
If SALVATION is IMMERSED IN THE SPIRIT in Matt3, and that has nothing to do with water, then isn't salvation also being BORN AGAIN? Isn't salvation also BORN-AGAIN-UNITED-WITH-CHRIST? Isn't salvation also BORN-AGAIN-IMMERSED-IN-CHRIST?
How can the undeniable understanding exist that immersion-into-the-Holy-Spirit has nothing to do with water, but somehow a DIFFERENT understanding exists that immersion into CHRIST is waterbaptism?
If IMMERSION INTO THE SPIRIT (which is salvation) isn't by water, then why is IMMERSION INTO CHRIST (which is salvation) different and by water?
If "BAPTIZED" in Rom6 means waterbaptism, then UNITED is DIFFERENT than water it is SPIRITUAL; but if it only means "IMMERSED", then it fits PERFECTLY---we are "IMMERSED/UNITED-death/UNITED-resurrection/BORN-AGAIN" !
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Apologist
2 Tim. 2:24-26
Oops! Thanks for the correction.
All you have to do is go to a search engine (I like Google.com) and type in the words, 'Sola Fide' and it will find several links.
Sola Fide is Latin and means "by faith alone."
Martin Luther began the Protestant reformation based on:
Sola Fide: Faith Alone
Sola Gratia: Grace Alone
Sola Scriptura: By scripture alone
When Christians say we are saved by "faith alone" they mean that you are saved by faith apart from good works.
I don't believe you have to be baptised to *get* into the church, but you should if you want to follow Christ's command.
I would say yes, you must be baptised in the Holy Spirit to be saved, but what does that mean?
I believe that means that the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us at the moment of conversion.
No, I don't believe it is the same in the sense that people speak in tongues if that is what you are hinting at.
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Apologist
2 Tim. 2:24-26
I'll let the Bible Knowledge Commentary speak here since I agree with it on this topic:
Whether the Roman Christians knew it or not, the fact is that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death. The question here is whether Paul had in mind Spirit baptism (1 Cor. 12:13) or water baptism. Some object to taking Romans 6:3 as Spirit baptism because that verse speaks of being baptized into Christ whereas 1 Corinthians 12:13 speaks of Spirit baptism placing the believer into Christs body. Of course, both are true: the believer is baptized (placed into) Christ and also into the body of Christ, and both are done by the Holy Spirit.
Others take Romans 6:3 to refer to water baptism, but the problem with that is that it seems to suggest that baptism saves. However, the New Testament consistently denies baptismal regeneration, presenting water baptism as a public attestation to an accomplished spiritual work (cf., e.g., Acts 10:44-48; 16:29-33). The spiritual reality Paul spoke of is that by faith believers are baptized (placed) into Christ and thereby are united and identified with Him. This spiritual reality is then graphically witnessed to and pictured by believers baptism in water. The one baptism (by water) is the visible picture of the spiritual truth of the other baptism (identification with Christ; cf. Gal. 3:27, baptized into Christ . . . clothed with Christ).
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Immersion in this passage refers to baptism. It requires a great deal of academic dishonesty to gag this scripture's obvious reference to water baptism.
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Romans 6:4a Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
This is more accurate than immersed for the following reason...
The Greek word used here is sunthapto. It can neither literaly or figuratively mean immersion. It means: to inter (bury) in company with, i.e. (fig.) to assimilate spiritually (to Christ by a sepulture as to sin):-bury with.
The fact that someone wrongly translated the Greek word sunthapto causes confusion; and it is easy to see why this verse may be misused as "an obvious reference" to water baptism when this incorrect translation is used.
Check the Greek concordance and dictionary for the word used in this verse.
I pray this helps.
This is more accurate than immersed for the following reason...
The Greek word used here is sunthapto. It can neither literaly or figuratively mean immersion. It means: to inter (bury) in company with, i.e. (fig.) to assimilate spiritually (to Christ by a sepulture as to sin):-bury with.
The fact that someone wrongly translated the Greek word sunthapto causes confusion; and it is easy to see why this verse may be misused as "an obvious reference" to water baptism when this incorrect translation is used.
Check the Greek concordance and dictionary for the word used in this verse.
I pray this helps.
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And you will also contend that Jesus jumped thought and inserted WATERBAPTISM into His conversation with Nicodemus (Jn3:5)?
You are correct---"Immersion" in Romans 6 refers to baptism. OR, "baptism" refers to "immersion". Actually, the Greek word MEANS "immersion", whether it's in WATER or in the SPIRIT, or in CHRIST, or in a vat of strawberry jam...
The word, "BAPTIZE", is used in Matt3 to mean "IN THE SPIRIT". John's distinction between WATER and SPIRIT denies the application of WATER to BAPTISM OF THE SPIRIT. Spirit-baptism, errr, rather, Spirit-IMMERSION, has NOTHING to do with water. Post #289 furthers this point.
Did you read post #289, just above? Please read it and tell me what you think...
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I've read all Ben's posts on this thread and must say that they are VERY well researched, thought out, and stated! Oh, and I agree.
We're saved by GRACE through FAITH, baptised in the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion and, in obedience to Christ Jesus, are baptised in water....AFTER SALVATION.
Take a look at Acts 8:36-38. The eunuch BELIEVED and then was baptised. Phillip made it clear that the faith was required first. Faith saves, baptism only serves to demonstrate.
Be careful though and look for marginal references as some translations remove v37 from the main text. Verse 37 is the one I want you to see because it teaches what I've explained in the above paragraph.
We're saved by GRACE through FAITH, baptised in the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion and, in obedience to Christ Jesus, are baptised in water....AFTER SALVATION.
Take a look at Acts 8:36-38. The eunuch BELIEVED and then was baptised. Phillip made it clear that the faith was required first. Faith saves, baptism only serves to demonstrate.
Be careful though and look for marginal references as some translations remove v37 from the main text. Verse 37 is the one I want you to see because it teaches what I've explained in the above paragraph.
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The misuse of "immersion" for "buried," albeit interesting, accounts in no way for the inexplicable confusion on what the word "baptism" means. Baptism is an obvious reference to baptism! Baptism in water. "Buried" in water is a great poetic device, the beauty of which is lost on literalist who avoid literal meanings when it serves their theology.
Jesus was the friend of sinners not (theological) spinners.
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LOL. Jesus "jumps thought" only to those who deny the obvious meaning of the word "water." Born of the water and the spirit occur in water baptism.
You mock the scriptures with your reference to strawberry jam.
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Ooooh kaaay...I've alrady given you Acts 8:36-38. So, precedence having been set...I'll not regress into a dual of word smithing with you but refrence yet another verse:
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all BAPTIZED into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Did the Holy Spirit dunk you in water? He baptized us all according to the above reference, and He didn't dunk me in water! My pastor did the latter.
Also:
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance (not salvation): but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worth to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Clearly states baptize you with the Holy Ghost!
Also:
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit dexcending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. Two distinct TYPES of baptism!
Also:
Acts 1:5 for John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Is the Holy Ghost which these believers are to be baptized with WATER? NO! He is Spirit! Distinctions between the two BAPTISMS are CLEARLY made.
Wow, that really makes one want to continue a civil conversation. But, through God's grace...I WILL!
Thanks for that attack though. It allowed me to be tested and I choose, because of He that lives within me, to continue with a heart of love.
I do hope that you got a feeling of edification at my expense after having posted such a remark. Did it make you feel good to say such a thing? I really hope so.But there is some truth to what you said. Jesus IS my friend, I know it because I am a sinner and he died for me and saved me because he loves me! He did come to call sinners, not the righteous unto repentance...guess that includes me. "Whosoever will..." guess that includes me too. PRAISE GOD! WHAT A FRIEND WE HAVE IN JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by evolisamyth
Wow, that really makes one want to continue a civil conversation. But, through God's grace...I WILL!
Thanks for that attack though. It allowed me to be tested and I choose, because of He that lives within me, to continue with a heart of love.
But there is some truth to what you said. Jesus IS my friend, I know it because I am a sinner and he died for me and saved me because he loves me! He did come to call sinners, not the righteous unto repentance...guess that includes me. "Whosoever will..." guess that includes me too. PRAISE GOD! WHAT A FRIEND WE HAVE IN JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!
You are not a theologian and so the attack is not against you. It is against theology which in general gets in the way of clear text. Before we proceed, please remember this is not about you or me. Right now it's about ideas.
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WATER used here refers to natural birth!!!!!!!!!
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Do a google search and see. Do a bit of research for about an hour or so or longer on John 3:5 and you'll see this.
OR just go on to v6 where Jesus clarifies the statement in v5:
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Continues to explaine in v7:
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Born once of WATER (FLESH) and the AGAIN...of the SPIRIT!!!!!!!!
Tadda! It's NOT rocket science! A verse taken out of context can mean just about anything. But kept in context...as in context of the verses that precede and follow it, it means what it means.
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