Western Rite Liturgics

GoingByzantine

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I have some questions about the Liturgy of St. Gregory, and the Liturgy of St. Tikhon that are employed by Antiochian and ROCOR Western Rite parishes. These liturgies do not appear to be based on pre-Schism Western liturgics, but they instead appear to be derived from more contemporary Anglican and Catholic source material. Was this done to help aid in the conversion of Westerners to Orthodoxy?

Do missals (or other source material) exist that could yield a version of a Western Liturgy, as it looked before the schism? Or are there no extant versions of a pre-schism Western liturgy?
 
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FireDragon76

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All4Christ

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One thing I always wondered is why did the Western Rite seem to collapse so hard in ROCOR, and the Antiochians? It seems dead now.

There are a few near me. The one my friend's mom goes to celebrates the Tridentine Mass.

I think some Orthodox don't see the reason of having a different rite though...maybe since the style of music within the Byzantine rite can be changed or just the "if it's not broken, why change it?" If there hadn't been a break in celebrating those liturgies, I believe it would be a different attitude. Since it stopped organic use / development in the Orthodox Church for hundreds of years, some worry that theological differences will creep in. Also, many Western Orthodox churches are direct conversions of entire churches, so that can be a concern for priests to have different seminary training or bring in past beliefs that may be different than Orthodox beliefs. I'm not saying this is right, but I've heard some people say this.

I think a direct liturgy from before he break would be more acceptable to some. For example, if a liturgy was not changed since 1054, some would be more comfortable with it.

My priest is one of those who are concerned that theological differences will creep in. I understand to a point...the Western Orthodox Church I visited was an entire church conversion. They still have the Celebration hymnal (which we used in my Pentecostal Church), which has many songs contrary to Orthodox beliefs. They don't sing all of them, but I would prefer they copy out the songs that are appropriate for Orthodoxy, and not have the songs that are contrary to our beliefs in the church pews.

Personally, I really like the idea of Western rite Orthodoxy, though I personally prefer the Byzantine Rite. I really like the Tridentine Mass on occasion. I think it would be an easier transition if my family ever was interested in converting, especially if it was based on the Anglican liturgy.
 
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FireDragon76

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The western rite captured the few Continuing Anglican churches that felt they needed to join the EO communion. The CA movement is about the only western church body likely to have any significant contribution of parishes to the WRO movement.

You aren't going to find large numbers of Protestants wanting to become Orthodox, and when they do, they do so as individuals. So it's far easier to just become a regular Byzentine-style Orthodox Christian. Catholics that convert seem much more interested in eastern practices so there's less motivation to stay western.
 
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All4Christ

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The western rite captured the few Continuing Anglican churches that felt they needed to join the EO communion. The CA movement is about the only western church body likely to have any significant contribution of parishes to the WRO movement.

You aren't going to find large numbers of Protestants wanting to become Orthodox, and when they do, they do so as individuals. So it's far easier to just become a regular Byzentine-style Orthodox Christian.

Many also seem to want a change. For me, going from the Pentecostal services to the Byzantine style was refreshing and something I wanted. It'd be just as much of a change to go to a Tridentine Rite, or even the Liturgy of St. Tikhon. Of course, the differences are greater from Evangelical to a liturgical church.
 
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FireDragon76

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That's a good point. Also, the WRO format isn't even identical to how the ancient west used to worship back in the middle ages. There were no pews, people milled around and often engaged in private devotions much as they do in Orthodox churches today. In some ways the WRO is receiving later western practices (particularly the more passive and structured style of church experience), and I'm sure that not all Orthodox are happy with that.
 
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All4Christ

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That's a good point. Also, the WRO format isn't even identical to how the ancient west used to worship back in the middle ages. There were no pews, people milled around and often engaged in private devotions much as they do in Orthodox churches today. In some ways the WRO is receiving later western practices (particularly the more passive and structured style of church experience), and I'm sure that not all Orthodox are happy with that.

That seems to be my impression as well. Many don't think (and rightly so) that it is identical (mainly with what you mentioned), and they are uncomfortable with any changes from the early liturgies, even cultural and philosophical changes. We try to adhere to the earliest liturgical practices possible. That is part of the overarching culture and one of the aims of most Orthodox Christians
 
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nutroll

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About a year ago, I read a document called Russian Observations upon the American Prayer Book which outlines many of the issues encountered when considering the formation of a Western Rite within Orthodoxy. I have quoted just the conclusion paragraph below.

The committee, after reviewing these "Observations," allowed in general the possibility that if Orthodox parishes, composed of former Anglicans, were organized in America, they might be allowed, at their desire, to perform their worship according to the "Book of Common Prayer," but only on condition that the following corrections were made in the spirit of the Orthodox Church. On the one hand everything must be removed from the Book that bears a clearly non-Orthodox character—the Thirty-nine Articles of the Anglican Confession, the Catechism with its protestant teaching about the sacraments, the Filioque, the idea of the sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures as the sole source of the teaching of the Faith, etc. On the other hand, there must be inserted into the text of the prayers and rites contained in the Book those Orthodox beliefs which it is essentially necessary to profess in Orthodox worship—into the rite of the Liturgy, the profession of belief in the change of the Holy Gifts into the Body and Blood of Christ, and of belief in the sacrificial significance of the Eucharist; into the rite of ordination ([khirotonii]), the belief in the divine establishment of the ministry with its distinction of degrees, and the recognition of the distinctive right of the priest to offer the bloodless sacrifice. Into all the services in general prayers must be inserted addressed [sic] to the Blessed Mother of God, to Angels and Saints, with the glorification and invocation of them (direct), also prayers for the dead (especially in the Liturgy and the Burial Service). There must be included in liturgical practice, and put into the Book, the missing rites for the sacraments of penance, oil-anointing and unction, and the rite of consecration of churches (as distinct from the consecration of a house of prayer); and finally there must be introduced the cult of sacred images. But since the detailed changes in the "Book of Prayers," and, generally speaking, in Anglican liturgical practice together with the compilation of new prayers and even of entire rites can be carried out only on the spot, in America, in correspondence with existing demands and conditions, it is found desirable to send the "Observations" themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop. They will thus serve in the negotiations as materials for the determination in detail of the conditions on which Anglicans disposed to Orthodoxy can be received. As regards the reception of clergy from Anglicanism the committee has proposed (pending a final judgment of the question by the Church) to offer those who join a new conditional ordination.

I think the fascinating thing about the document is that there are things they bring up which many of us would probably not even think of when looking over the Book of Common Prayer. As such the idea of making a rite was not something to be taken lightly, and its continuation is not something to be taken lightly. If parishes are "doing their own thing" with regards to their liturgics, there is a real danger that they might make alterations that have unforeseen consequences. I am willing to give our hierarchs credit for being able to allow such things under close observation, but I am still suspicious about its execution if it is not done with great oversight.
 
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All4Christ

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...I am willing to give our hierarchs credit for being able to allow such things under close observation, but I am still suspicious about its execution if it is not done with great oversight.

I agree - great oversight is critical. Also, unity between Byzantine and Western rites is critical.
 
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GoingByzantine

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I agree - great oversight is critical. Also, unity between Byzantine and Western rites is critical.

Indeed, the last thing the Orthodox want/need is to end up in a situation where animosities exist, like they do between some ECs and RCs.

That seems to be my impression as well. Many don't think (and rightly so) that it is identical (mainly with what you mentioned), and they are uncomfortable with any changes from the early liturgies, even cultural and philosophical changes. We try to adhere to the earliest liturgical practices possible. That is part of the overarching culture and one of the aims of most Orthodox Christians

This is something that I am curious about as well. I do not doubt the validity of the current Western Liturgics, but it seems odd that Orthodox jurisdictions did not just revive a pre-Schism liturgy. Such an action might also help the rite gain some acceptance among its current critics.

This pre-Schism Sacramentary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelasian_Sacramentary), which contains full versions of the mass, could have been excellent source material for a restored pre-schism Western liturgy.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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The Liturgy of Saint Germanus is very interesting, and quite traditional:

I've never been to a Liturgy of Saint Gregory, but I've listened to music from one before, and it definitely sounded Orthodox--not Eastern, but still Orthodox: http://www.stgregoryoc.org/article/audio-files/ (see 'Music for Special Occasions' and the one for Communion, the others kind of have bad acoustics.)

More than the Liturgies, though, what interests me is Western Rite iconography.
 

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ReaderCuthbert

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I was received into Orthodoxy through the western rite in an Anglican parish that converted en masse. The simplest answer is that convert parishes were given the blessing to preserve as much of their heritage as possible. Because the received tradition was already so rooted in the ancient West, it was decided that the healthiest approach to establishing a way of being both Orthodox and authentically Western was to assume the living liturgy, customs, devotions, music, etc., and correct/supplement when necessary. It's a more holistic/organic approach than arbitrarily choosing a "golden age" of the past and insist that everyone mimic it. Otherwise, what's the point? Liturgy is a living, dynamic thing.

There need be no worry about anything "creeping in" that doesn't belong. The guidelines set forth by the Patriarch of Antioch have ensured this, and the constant, careful overlooking of our bishops ensures we are all of the same faith and mind.
 
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