Were Sts Mary and Joseph married?

[AMM]

(You are in the Orthodox subforum)

I was wondering this the other day. The Gospels state that Mary was betrothed, some of our liturgical texts refer to Mary as the Unwedded Bride (I'm thinking of O Virgin Pure), and Joseph is known as Joseph the Betrothed. But I've also heard some people (not necessarily Orthodox) say that back then, being betrothed and being married were the same thing. So, were they married? Or were they just betrothed? And how does betrothal compare to modern day engagement?

 

[All4Christ]

It’s important to remember the context of marriage in Biblical times. When you were betrothed to someone, you were legally “married”. The act of consummation sealed the marriage of the couple. My personal understanding is that she is “unwed” because she was betrothed, but never consummated the marriage.

St Jerome, in Contra Helvidius wrote:

And although we find it said to Joseph in a dream, Fear not to take Mary your wife; and again, Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took unto him his wife, no one ought to be disturbed by this, as though, inasmuch as she is called wife, she ceases to be betrothed, for we know it is usual in Scripture to give the title to those who are betrothed.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It might help too ... as I understand it, Orthodoxy has a betrothal service. It is not often used, because once a couple is betrothed, if they separate it would require (and count as) an ecclesiastical divorce, even though the marriage was never completed and consummated. So it is a definite marriage commitment. But does not allow for sexual relations.

(I think it is sometimes performed as part of the wedding service, so that the wedding immediately follows the betrothal at the same ceremony.)

 

[ArmyMatt]

they were betrothed, which carried the legal weight of marriage, even though the marriage was never consummated.

 

[All4Christ]

It might help too ... as I understand it, Orthodoxy has a betrothal service. It is not often used, because once a couple is betrothed, if they separate it would require (and count as) an ecclesiastical divorce, even though the marriage was never completed and consummated. So it is a definite marriage commitment. But does not allow for sexual relations.

(I think it is sometimes performed as part of the wedding service, so that the wedding immediately follows the betrothal at the same ceremony.)

Yes, today it is at the beginning of the wedding service, but it used to be separate. It is always used in the OCA weddings though; I don’t know if anyone who doesn’t really participate in the betrothal. It just typically is done all at once.

 

[AMM]

ah okay, interesting. So they're both married and not - depending on how you consider that (not consummated but legally married)?

And I was just at an event the other day and my priest spoke about the betrothal service. He said that it contains the vows and is the legal marriage, and then the couple proceeds into the church for the blessing of the marriage with the crowning. I thought that was interesting. (That's how I interpreted what he said at least)

 

[All4Christ]

It might help too ... as I understand it, Orthodoxy has a betrothal service. It is not often used, because once a couple is betrothed, if they separate it would require (and count as) an ecclesiastical divorce, even though the marriage was never completed and consummated. So it is a definite marriage commitment. But does not allow for sexual relations.

(I think it is sometimes performed as part of the wedding service, so that the wedding immediately follows the betrothal at the same ceremony.)

A side note, only the Greek Orthodox Church grants ecclesial divorces. It would count as a marriage though in all Orthodox jurisdictions upon betrothal.

 

[All4Christ]

ah okay, interesting. So they're both married and not - depending on how you consider that (not consummated but legally married)?

And I was just at an event the other day and my priest spoke about the betrothal service. He said that it contains the vows and is the legal marriage, and then the couple proceeds into the church for the blessing of the marriage with the crowning. I thought that was interesting. (That's how I interpreted what he said at least)

For me, Father just confirmed that we wanted to be married. There weren’t “vows” per-say. But yes - he confirmed our desire to be wed before the betrothal ceremony, not in the wedding ceremony

 

[~Anastasia~]

A side note, only the Greek Orthodox Church grants ecclesial divorces. It would count as a marriage though in all Orthodox jurisdictions upon betrothal.

What happens in other jurisdictions?

A person/couple cannot possibly enter a second marriage in our jurisdiction unless they have been granted an ecclesiastical divorce and unless they also have permission to enter a second marriage.

And as another side note, I think we actually had a betrothal ceremony a few weeks ago.

 

[All4Christ]

What happens in other jurisdictions?

A person/couple cannot possibly enter a second marriage in our jurisdiction unless they have been granted an ecclesiastical divorce and unless they also have permission to enter a second marriage.

And as another side note, I think we actually had a betrothal ceremony a few weeks ago.

The OCA and other jurisdictions don’t grant divorces since God hates divorce. If someone desires to be remarried, they need to appeal to the bishop for him to grant permission for the remarriage. If he allows, it is out of economia. It isn’t the norm. Before considering allowing the remarriage, I think he typically looks for similar causes as to what you all use in the ecclesial investigation.

The Church being involved in divorce was primarily due to the Church being involved in civil affairs when there was a state religion, in particular in the Byzantine world. We don’t, however, believe that we should be involved in validating the dissolution of marriages, so that is not done.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The OCA and other justifications don’t grant divorces since God hates divorce. If someone desires to be remarried, they need to appeal to the bishop for him to grant permission for the remarriage. If he allows, it is out of economia. It isn’t the norm. Before considering allowing the remarriage, I think he typically looks for similar causes as to what you all use in the ecclesial investigation.

The Church being involved in divorce was primarily due to the Church being involved in civil affairs when there was a state religion, in particular in the Byzantine world. We don’t, however, believe that we should be involved in validating the dissolution of marriages, so that is not done.

I see. I can understand that makes sense too. In practice it seems we are not talking about anything different, since a person still has to appeal to the bishop and there will be an investigation before a remarriage would be allowed.

I get the impression that an ecclesiastical divorce is just a rubber-stamping of that process, which still has to occur.

I can't think of any consideration where it matters if the Church sees you as married or not married (other than seeking to marry) since some of us have spouses outside the Church - so now I can't see where it would be strictly necessary for any other reason. And you said the process for remarriage in the OCA otherwise follows the same basic process needed for us.

Thanks for the info.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The OCA and other justifications don’t grant divorces since God hates divorce. If someone desires to be remarried, they need to appeal to the bishop for him to grant permission for the remarriage. If he allows, it is out of economia. It isn’t the norm. Before considering allowing the remarriage, I think he typically looks for similar causes as to what you all use in the ecclesial investigation.

The Church being involved in divorce was primarily due to the Church being involved in civil affairs when there was a state religion, in particular in the Byzantine world. We don’t, however, believe that we should be involved in validating the dissolution of marriages, so that is not done.

By the way - are there still strict limits on number of marriages?

I am told we have a first marriage which is celebratory. A second marriage if it happens is penitential. A third marriage is VERY penitential. A fourth marriage would be impossible and is simply never allowed.

I don't suppose that applies to someone repeatedly surviving the death of a spouse? Or maybe it does? I never asked.

 

[All4Christ]

By the way - are there still strict limits on number of marriages?

I am told we have a first marriage which is celebratory. A second marriage if it happens is penitential. A third marriage is VERY penitential. A fourth marriage would be impossible and is simply never allowed.

I don't suppose that applies to someone repeatedly surviving the death of a spouse? Or maybe it does? I never asked.

Yes, there are. 3 is the max for all combinations of divorce and death, no matter the reason. Most of the time from what I’ve seen (though I haven’t seen many remarriages), if a second marriage ends in divorce, a remarriage isn’t granted. If it is due to death, then a remarriage most likely would be accepted. That said, we don’t believe in “til death we part”. The marriage commitment lasts past death, so it is even not as celebratory for a second marriage after a death of the spouse.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, there are. 3 is the max for all combinations of divorce and death, no matter the reason. Most of the time from what I’ve seen (though I haven’t seen many remarriages), if a second marriage ends in divorce, a remarriage isn’t granted. If it is due to death, then a remarriage most likely would be accepted. That said, we don’t believe in “til death we part”. The marriage commitment lasts past death, so it is even not as celebratory for a second marriage after a death of the spouse.

Thank you.

I knew we didn't believe in "till death do us part" but I never asked about how it applied to allowed remarriages.

I don't think I know anyone in the Church who divorced a second time and remarried.

I know some people who simply don't live together anymore and are still actually married. That seems to be the main way of handling an intolerable situation (and some of them were truly intolerable!).

Our parish seems composed mostly of those married once, those widowed, and a few of those married who don't live with their spouse. I know of very few remarriages (though one was initially scandalous - I can at least say that after some decades it led to great healing for most of the persons involved).

I don't think I know anyone married three times.

Contrast that with what I see in society ... my generation in my own family is particularly hard hit. Some are in their 4th marriages - mostly through situations I wouldn't fault them for.

 

[Knee V]

As an analogy for betrothal vs marriage (and probably a poor one), manslaughter and murder are not the same thing, but in both cases someone is dead and someone is going to prison. They are distinct, but share nearly all of the same ramifications.

 

[AMM]

As an analogy for betrothal vs marriage (and probably a poor one), manslaughter and murder are not the same thing, but in both cases someone is dead and someone is going to prison. They are distinct, but share nearly all of the same ramifications.

I understand the analogy, but I have to say, this comparison made me laugh

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Yes, there are. 3 is the max for all combinations of divorce and death, no matter the reason. Most of the time from what I’ve seen (though I haven’t seen many remarriages), if a second marriage ends in divorce, a remarriage isn’t granted. If it is due to death, then a remarriage most likely would be accepted. That said, we don’t believe in “til death we part”. The marriage commitment lasts past death, so it is even not as celebratory for a second marriage after a death of the spouse.

Age also has something to do with whether a remarriage is allowed, doesn’t it?

 

[All4Christ]

Age also has something to do with whether a remarriage is allowed, doesn’t it?

Yes, I believe that is correct.

 

[Lady Donna Marie]

If Mary wasn't married in the biblical times then the authorities could have killed her. With her being betrothed it protected her from that. I was my understanding that Joseph was picked for various reasons. One of them was his age and he probably wasn't able to perform sexually so it kept the marriage sexless and kept her a virgin since the seed of Jesus came from the God.

Deuteronomy 22:22: "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel"

Leviticus 20:10: "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife— with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death."