Well, duh...

-57

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But not magically poofed that you insert between the lines.

7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Pretty simple...even a 5th grader can understand it.

Are you saying the proto Adams were not living creatures? Adam wasn't a living creature in all of his years of existence until God breathed into his nostrils...was he a zombie?

Come on Barb...you need to do better.



Which is yet another way the text tells you it's figurative. The rib would have an X and a Y chromosome in each cell, making Eve male.

This is one of many ways that Genesis tells us that the creation story is not a literal account.

How does that tell us the creation story is figurative?
 
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loveofourlord

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I may have missed this in the article, but do we know what triggers the difference between complex gene development vs. gene loss? Is it supposed to be completely randomn, or is there some mechanism or context in which one occurs instead of the other?

I would assume it's just simple natural selection, new genes get added and changed all the time, if not needed those genes are free to mutate. Like with humans at some point we lost our ability to produce vitamin C, but other apes do, the reason likly stems from a point when we ate alot of vitamin c rich plants and things, because we ate enough in our diet, the genes mutated and were not lethal as it would be in many other animals. If a gene isn't needed it will break and not harm.
 
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nolidad

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This snake has tiny vestigial legs that retain almost all the bones of tetrapod hindlimbs.
Four-legged \'snake\' fossil with clasping arms could be oldest one known

Which is the thought of one evolutionist! Not others though! Everything in the article is just a story made up based on the scientists philosophical worldview! He has nor clue if the 4 legs were vestigial and only used for grasping!

You're like the atheist who says that unless we can produce the menu for the Last Supper, Jesus never existed. No one actually believes dodges like that.

Failed attempt at trying to dodge the question. If this eyeless fish evolved into an eyeless fish- we must produce evidence to show it did! After all a hypothesis needs empirical evidence to move on to a theory. And then it must be tested and retested over and over! So we await the evidence to sho wthat this fish evolved into an eyeless fish!

All you are doing is opining circular reasoning! This fish evolved into an eyeless fish! How do you know? Because everything evolves sp it must have evolved!

As you see, evolution is creation.

In your religion maybe! Bu tnot in the faith of the one true Creator of the Universe. He is Creator not evolver!

No, God made evolution. He created living populations with the ability to change over time. Creationists say that He's not capable of making them evolve beyond new species, genera, and families, but God goes on with evolution anyway.

As you know, YE creastionism was invented by the Seventh-Day Adventists in the early 20th century.

YE creation science is based man's revisions of scripture , and is refuted by the very evidence creationists like to tout as supporting their man-made beliefs.

Well we all believe in the generic evolution in that things do change over time! But the "macro" tale of microbes to man over X millions of years is a fanciful tale meant to satisfy those who think they can escape having to stand before holy God!

As for YE Creationism. it was reasserted in the 19th century after being the most accepted by society until the enlightenment brought forth enough skeptics to challenge the sovereingty of God!

The church accepted a young earth even during the dark ages almost universally! God built into every creature an ability to adapt to a certain point and no more. New genetic information does not magically appear and certainly in the extreme rare cases of what has been dubbed "beneficial"mutations does not occur fast enough to allow for survival in ever changing climates! We are told by so many scientists that we are in a global climate crisis! Instead of rapid evolution, we are told we are witnessing rapid extinction! That is what happens in changing enviornments! Animals either leave or die! Remember over 99.9% of all mutations fall on the harmful side of Kiomeras distribution! And as the dean of Harvard genetics said around the turn of the century even the most benign of mutations ultimately reduces the viability of the hosts!

And you still have not shown one piece of empirical proof of one family changing into another!

YE creation science is based man's revisions of scripture , and is refuted by the very evidence creationists like to tout as supporting their man-made beliefs.

In case you never heard, thois is the same tactic Joseph Goebbels used under Hitler! tell a lie, make it a big one and keep repeating it in the hopes the masses will come to believe it!

No Creation is based on a straightforward literal, grammatical reading of SCripture!

Genetic, anatomical, and physiological. As you learned, they didn't lose their eyes; their eyes lost functions that were metabolically demanding.

So are you saying they still have their eyes and optic system? it is just no loinger fiunctioning?

Individuals don't evolve; populations do. The defect was not in Adam's body, but in his soul.

But populations are made of individuals. YOu can't see the trees fopr the forest!

No, it's an observed phenomenon.

No it is the concept and name we gave to what happens. But once again natural selection cannot rewrite a genetic code! It can only allow things to live or die! Natural selection cannot communicate with DNA and RNA to cause a change.

No. It favors new traits that are useful over less-useful or harmful traits.

Wrong again. Giving natural selection anthropomorphic qualities does not give it the ability to favor or disfavor. What you call "new traits" according to your own theory you worship, requires x thousands of years to develop, one small mutation at a time until something novel has come to be! So unless you are saying that enviornments changed microscopically over time to match the genetic changes ctaking place in everything- you have a problem!

You forgot what evolution does. Individuals don't evolve; populations do.

This is worth repeating! Populations are made up of individuals! and evolutionists do not have a clue if the favored trait that passed on was based on that trait already existing in the "populations" genome and because it was better suited for its enviornment -breeded large while the others either had to move on or die!

Like a dog going into the colder climes. If it does not have the genetics for long thick hair- it dies. The weather cannot communicate with the dog to grow longer hair (rewrite the genetics of that creature).

We have seen that happen by crossbreeding but that required planning and intelligence and controlled enviornment- not randomly happening willy nilly in nature!
 
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loveofourlord

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No. Monkeys are far too evolved in their own ways to have given rise to humans.



You seem to be conflating "monkey" and "ape" in fact, monkeys are composed of two very different groups, only one of which (Old World monkeys) which gave rise to apes. But the common ancestor of monkeys and apes wasn't like any monkey or ape we see today.



Because of the evidence. Genes, for example, show the same sort of family tree that Linnaeus first noticed long before evolution was realized.

Another reason the vast number of transitional forms between that which creationists call "kinds." If there was some limit to variation of living things, those transitionals would not exist.

ehhh on the monky thing, we would have had to evolve from a monkey, as our liniege split off from monkeyes AFTER new world and old world monkeys split, for both of them to be monkeys we would infact have had to evolve from a monkey.
 
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nolidad

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God says that he directly gave Adam a soul. His body was produced from nature as were all the other animals. But the soul is given directly by God.

God does not tell us about how that worked with others before Adam.

YOu are so used to revising SCripture you canot see how badly this statement altered the Word of God!

Gods Word directly and clearly says that God called all teh animals into existence !

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Evolutionists and big bangers a long time ago tried to explain how God called it into order- now for the most part they are just explaining away the need for God!

God said and it was so! Anything after that is mere speculation with no way of knowing how right or wrong one may be.

But while God called into existence all things- He made man by sculpting him! That is the word as written and not revised!

"7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Formed---yatsar

"21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good."

created--bara
 
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The Barbarian

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YOu are so used to revising SCripture you canot see how badly this statement altered the Word of God!

Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

I realize that this verse is objectionable to YE creationists, but it's still God's word.

Gods Word directly and clearly says that God called all teh animals into existence !

In the Bible, God says that the Earth brought forth animals:
Genesis 1:24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.


Evolutionists and big bangers a long time ago tried to explain how God called it into order- now for the most part they are just explaining away the need for God!

Your story sounds pretty far-fetched, given that Darwin said God just created the first living things, and a priest first figured out the Big Bang. Not to mention, the theory was attacked by an atheist for suggesting a beginning to the universe. Would you like to learn about those things?

But while God called into existence all things- He made man by sculpting him!

No. It says God formed man from the earth; "scupting" is your revision.
 
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The Barbarian

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ehhh on the monky thing, we would have had to evolve from a monkey,

Nope. Humans evolved from anthropoid apes. They lied to you about that.

You might as well pretend that humans evolved from bacteria.
 
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loveofourlord

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Nope. Humans evolved from anthropoid apes. They lied to you about that.

You might as well pretend that humans evolved from bacteria.

yes and those anthro apes evolved from apes, that evolved from monkeys, in fact we still are monkeys and apes. Not modern, but by definition the LCA of humans and monkeys would have had to have been a monkey. And yes humans evoled from bacteria, just as we did from eukeryotes and fish, and amphibians, and lizards....*okay that one might have been closer to amphibians then lizards*
 
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The Barbarian

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This snake has tiny vestigial legs that retain almost all the bones of tetrapod hindlimbs.
Four-legged \'snake\' fossil with clasping arms could be oldest one known

Which is the thought of one evolutionist!

Nope. Real fossil, with real legs. Same bones as found in other tetrapods. No scientist denies the fact.

Everything in the article is just a story made up based on the scientists philosophical worldview!

Fossil evidence. Let's look at it again...
iu


It would take a massive commitment to denial of reality, to deny those are legs.

He has nor clue if the 4 legs were vestigial and only used for grasping!

I thought you guys denied vestigial organs. What they undeniably are, are legs.

Failed attempt at trying to dodge the question. If this eyeless fish evolved into an eyeless fish-

Actually, fish with eyes at some point entered the cave and eventually evolved into fish without functional eyes. In some cases, the original species is still in existence and is genetically very close to the new species.
The Astyanax mexicanus species comprises an eyed epigean (surface) form and at least 29 different pink, eyeless, hypogean (cave) forms
Why are blind cave fish blind and how do they navigate? - Practical Fishkeeping


That is additional evidence for the evolution of these fish.

All you are doing is opining circular reasoning! This fish evolved into an eyeless fish!

Nope. We see the vestigial eyes, which no longer provide any vision, and we see the genes that were modified to do so.

How do you know?

Genetic analysis, very closely related species, and so on.

YE creation science is based man's revisions of scripture , and is refuted by the very evidence creationists like to tout as supporting their man-made beliefs.

No Creation is based on a straightforward literal, grammatical reading of SCripture!

In case you never heard, this is the same tactic Joseph Goebbels used under Hitler! tell a lie, make it a big one and keep repeating it in the hopes the masses will come to believe it!

Genetic, anatomical, and physiological. As you learned, they didn't lose their eyes; their eyes lost functions that were metabolically demanding.

[QUOTE ]So are you saying they still have their eyes and optic system? it is just no loinger fiunctioning?[/QUOTE]

But the blind cave fish retained some basic structural components of eyes. (Likewise, modern snakes, which are legless, retain useless pelvic girdles that once supported their ancestors' limbs.)


The Maryland scientists, Yoshiyuki Yamamoto and William R. Jeffery, have given blind cave fish back their eyes.


They did it by removing lenses from the eyes of their sighted cousins, then implanting the lenses in the eyes of young blind cave fish.


To their amazement, the blind cave fish grew fully restored eyes, each of which included "a distinct pupil, cornea and iris," according to a summary of their work released by the University of Maryland. Somehow, they infer, the lens implantation told the fish genes to trigger the formation of complete eyes.


It is unclear whether the eyes can actually see, however. For now, "we are not sure what gene is inactivating cave fish (eye genes)" in untreated fish, Yamamoto said in a phone interview Wednesday.
Science gives eyes to blind subterranean fish

Individuals don't evolve; populations do. The defect was not in Adam's body, but in his soul.


But populations are made of individuals.

And humans are made of cells. But cells don't build houses. Doesn't seem like a difficult concept to me. Individuals don't evolve. Populations do. Because the definition of evolution requires it.
You can't see the cell for the human!

Evolution is an observed phenomenon.


Yep. Happens daily and is observed. Remember what it is? If you forgot, it's a change in allele frequencies in a population over time.

it is the concept and name we gave to what happens.

In the sense that erosion is the concept and name we gave to what happens. But erosion is also an observed phenomenon.

But once again natural selection cannot rewrite a genetic code!

It can only select from existing mutations, tending to favor the useful ones, while removing the harmful ones. This is why mutation and natural selection are required for a species to become more fit by evolution.

Wrong again. Giving natural selection anthropomorphic qualities does not give it the ability to favor or disfavor.

Even many YE creationists admit that natural selection favors useful traits and removes harmful ones. Would you like me to show you again? According to your own doctrine you worship, natural selection is a fact.

So unless you are saying that enviornments changed microscopically over time to match the genetic changes ctaking place in everything- you have a problem!

Nope. As you learned earlier, significant changes in environments led to significant genetic/phenetic changes in populations. Would you like me to show you that again?






 
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The Barbarian

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And yes humans evoled from bacteria, just as we did from eukeryotes and fish, and amphibians, and lizards....*okay that one might have been closer to amphibians then lizards*

No, you've still got it all muddled. Lizards could never have given rise to humans or even mammals. The reptiles that gave rise to humans were very, very different than lizards.
 
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The Barbarian

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7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Pretty simple... you just don't approve of the way God did it.

Are you saying the proto Adams were not living creatures?

Are you saying that other animals are not living creatures? You think they need immortal souls to be alive? How so?

Come on 57...you need to do better.

If God had literally made Eve from one of Adam's ribs, Eve would have been male.

How does that tell us the creation story is figurative?

Because Eve was female.
 
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loveofourlord

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No, you've still got it all muddled. Lizards could never have given rise to humans or even mammals. The reptiles that gave rise to humans were very, very different than lizards.

*laughs* yeah I realized that after I posted it I meant reptiles, and they were more warmblood reptiles I believe, closer to the kind that gave rise to dinosaurs, rather then cold blooded reptiles.
 
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The Barbarian

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*laughs* yeah I realized that after I posted it I meant reptiles, and they were more warmblood reptiles I believe, closer to the kind that gave rise to dinosaurs, rather then cold blooded reptiles.

Yes, not archosaurs, which gave rise to birds, crocodiles, and dinosaurs, but not too far from them. Early mammal-like reptiles included Dimetrodon that "sail-backed" reptile you see so often falsely identified as a dinosaur.
Basal Reptile Chronology
 
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-57

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Are you saying that other animals are not living creatures? You think they need immortal souls to be alive? How so?

Dude, moments before Adam became a living creature the bible says he was ...dust.

Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Perhaps you can copy and paste Gen 2:7 and insert "evolved man" in the proper place of the sentence.
 
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The Barbarian

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Dude, moments before Adam became a living creature the bible says he was ...dust.

"Moments" is your revision of God's word. And would you mind answering the question?

Perhaps you can copy and paste Gen 2:7 and insert "evolved man" in the proper place of the sentence.

Most Christians are satisfied with God's word as it is; it supports neither evolution nor special creation, nor does it deny either of those. As you have seen, it does deny YE creationism, however.
 
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-57

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"Moments" is your revision of God's word. And would you mind answering the question?



Most Christians are satisfied with God's word as it is; it supports neither evolution nor special creation, nor does it deny either of those. As you have seen, it does deny YE creationism, however.

It's funny how you need to take a moment in time as portrayed in the Bible and s t r e t c h it into deep time. There is no room for deep time...So, I ask, where will you insert evolutionism into Gen 2:7?????
 
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The Barbarian

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"Moments" is your revision of God's word. And would you mind answering the question?

Most Christians are satisfied with God's word as it is; it supports neither evolution nor special creation, nor does it deny either of those. As you have seen, it does deny YE creationism, however.

It's funny how you need to take a moment in time as portrayed in the Bible

"Moment" is your revision of the Bible. It doesn't say how long it took for the Earth to produce animals, including man.

You've tried to compress it into a moment. But as you have seen, the Bible does not say that.

There is no room for deep time...

Creationists are unwilling to grant God the ability to have sufficient time. But God is not constrained by their wishes.

So, I ask, where will you insert evolutionism into Gen 2:7?????

You've already done so. "Evolutionism", remember, is your invention.

But there no need to insert evolution or protons, or plate tectonics, or any other natural phenomenon into the Bible. That's not what it's for. It's about God and man and our relationship. Don't try to convert it to a science text.
 
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-57

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Most Christians are satisfied with God's word as it is; it supports neither evolution nor special creation, nor does it deny either of those. As you have seen, it does deny YE creationism, however.

.


You can continue with your delusion if you like. The overall theme in the Bible concerning creation..is recent. Special.

What you do is destroy the fall and the reason for Christ. I see that as very anti-bible and anti-christian. If I had to rank that heretical belief I would place it pretty much on par with those who deny Christ deity.
 
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nolidad

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It would take a massive commitment to denial of reality, to deny those are legs.

And some of your buddies call it a snake, and some don't. Seems evolutionists can't make upi their mind!
Nope. Real fossil, with real legs. Same bones as found in other tetrapods. No scientist denies the fact.

Tetrapod sure but snake?

Snakes are elongated, legless, carnivorous reptiles of the suborder Serpentes.[2] Like all other squamates, snakes are ectothermic, amniote vertebrates covered in overlapping scales.

I thought you guys denied vestigial organs. What they undeniably are, are legs.

Well at one time man was said to have near 100 vestigial organs. That is down to one or two now and in time---0. So no just because a fossil has a set of legs that skeletally could have been fully functional, it is not vestigial.

Actually, fish with eyes at some point entered the cave and eventually evolved into fish without functional eyes. In some cases, the original species is still in existence and is genetically very close to the new species.
The Astyanax mexicanus species comprises an eyed epigean (surface) form and at least 29 different pink, eyeless, hypogean (cave) forms
Why are blind cave fish blind and how do they navigate? - Practical Fishkeeping


That is additional evidence for the evolution of these fish.

And as far as can be proven, there may have been eyed and eyeless fish all the time! Still awaiting our empirical evidence to support the theory that evolution took away their optic system, bit by bit, mutation by mutation as is required by the very theory! Once again a hypothesis can only advance- with actual physical evidence!


The Maryland scientists, Yoshiyuki Yamamoto and William R. Jeffery, have given blind cave fish back their eyes.


They did it by removing lenses from the eyes of their sighted cousins, then implanting the lenses in the eyes of young blind cave fish.


To their amazement, the blind cave fish grew fully restored eyes, each of which included "a distinct pupil, cornea and iris," according to a summary of their work released by the University of Maryland. Somehow, they infer, the lens implantation told the fish genes to trigger the formation of complete eyes.


It is unclear whether the eyes can actually see, however. For now, "we are not sure what gene is inactivating cave fish (eye genes)" in untreated fish, Yamamoto said in a phone interview Wednesday.
Science gives eyes to blind subterranean fish

And two scientists, doing very detailed and carefully planned surgery, using pre-exisiting materials is random unplanned evolution by mutation preserved by natural selection how?????

And humans are made of cells. But cells don't build houses. Doesn't seem like a difficult concept to me. Individuals don't evolve. Populations do. Because the definition of evolution requires it.
You can't see the cell for the human!

Evolution is an observed phenomenon.

And populations are based on individuals passing on pre-existing traits in their genome! And every time I ask for the observed evidence of "macro-evolution" you dodge the question better than a dodge ball expert! We all see change in species and even genus (and families that are also genus') But we have never seen snakes lose their legs, nor have we observed eyed fish evolve into eyeless fish! We only see papers and conclusions based on bits of observed evidence extrapolated writ large!
 
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The Barbarian

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It would take a massive commitment to denial of reality, to deny those are legs.

And some of your buddies call it a snake, and some don't.

But you can't find any? Guess why.

First it was "they aren't really legs." Now, it's "it's not really a snake." Seems creationists can't make upi their mind!

are elongated, legless, carnivorous reptiles of the suborder Serpentes.[2] Like all other squamates, snakes are ectothermic, amniote vertebrates covered in overlapping scales.


As you learned, Boa Constrictors have vestigial legs. And we see a gradual reduction in legs in the fossil snakes leading to today's snakes. Just as whales are legless mammals, we still see vestigial legs in some whales, and there is a gradual reduction in legs seen in fossil whales, which honest YE creationists admit is very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory.

Well at one time man was said to have near 100 vestigial organs.

But you can't list even a few of them? I know why.

That is down to one or two now and in time---0.

You were lied to about that. The coccyx, the appendix, wisdom teeth, pica semilunaris, palmerus longus muscle, arrector pili muscles, etc. Remember that "vestigial" does not mean "useless." As Darwin pointed out, many vestigial features have evolved different uses.

So no just because a fossil has a set of legs that skeletally could have been fully functional, it is not vestigial.

But they are legs.

And as far as can be proven, there may have been eyed and eyeless fish all the time!

Nope. No evidence whatever for that. But since some eyeless fish are so genetically close to some eyed fish that they appear to be the same species, that is powerful evidence for evolutionary change.

Still awaiting our empirical evidence to support the theory that evolution took away their optic system, bit by bit, mutation by mutation as is required by the very theory!

I showed you the research. You didn't read it? The genetic evidence is compelling. Would you like me to show you again?

And populations are based on individuals passing on pre-existing traits in their genome!

As well as new mutations. Some of both.

And every time I ask for the observed evidence of "macro-evolution" you dodge the question better than a dodge ball expert!

Your dodge is to keep changing the definition of "macroevolution." "Microevolution" is evolution within a species. "Macroevolution is evolution that produces new taxa. As you probably know, most creationist organizations admit that new species, genera, and families evolve from existing ones. Sometimes, they go farther. Would you like me to show you?

We all see change in species and even genus (and families that are also genus') But we have never seen snakes lose their legs,

But as you now realize, the fossil record and existing snakes shows gradual reduction in legs among snakes. Just a few of them have any legs at all today, but in the past, there were even four-legged snakes.
 
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