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We Don't Deserve Hell

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by IronicallyHuman, Feb 11, 2014.

  1. Rajni

    Rajni ☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯ Supporter

    +3,534
    United States
    Unorthodox
    Single
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]"The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]for the day of evil" (Proverbs 16:4)[/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Acts 4:27-28 ~ Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against Your holy[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]servant Jesus, whom You anointed. They did what Your power and will[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]had decided[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] beforehand should happen.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Even if one where to surgically remove those passages (and many others like[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]them) from one's bible, or rationalize them away, the question remains as to why[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]would anyone then try to tell me that God didn't, at the very least, know in[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]advance that Satan (and others) would rebel?[/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Are you suggesting that an omniscient God is being faced with unintended[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]consequences, here? Did He get Himself in over His head or something? [/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So why all the fuss?[/FONT] :)

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Why would God, who can see the end from the beginning mind you, claim[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]something is “good” if He already thought that things He would consider not-so-[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]good would sooner or later come if it? Are you saying He lied when He made that[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]statement, or that He didn't know what He was getting Himself into? I sure don't[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]believe that, do you?[/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Oh wow … really? Do I really need to connect the dots, here? :)[/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Who was it who created things in such a way that we'd even be *discussing* sin[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]right now?[/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So since God is capable of restraining sin, why doesn't this happen on a regular[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]basis if He's as uptight about it as many make Him out to be?[/FONT]

    Restraining sin would be an act of commission on His part, so by
    *refraining from* restraining sin, i.e., *allowing* it to occur, that's an
    act of omission on His part. So He's still ultimately responsible for how
    both scenarios unfold. To put it in driving terms, it's the same Foot
    controlling both the brake *and* the accelerator. :)

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So what you seem to be saying, here, is that God didn't see it coming.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If a fallible human is responsible for what *he* does, then don't you think that a[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Perfect, All Powerful, All-Knowing God would be responsible for what *He* does? [/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]To insist that humans can handle this kind of responsibility but God can't – or[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]shouldn't have to – is not only a double-standard, but places God below man in[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]basic competence. Not exactly the most God-glorifying stance to take, if you ask me.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Probably because the salvation I received in Christ Jesus is what opened my eyes[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]to all this. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Probably because salvation isn't actually from “hell” (at least, in the Dante's[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Inferno sense of the term) but from this idea that God made worthless garbage in[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]need of rescuing from the local trash-heap. It's in this respect that Christianity[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]needs a serious overhaul, imo. [/FONT] A good starting point might be to
    remove hell from where it really resides, which would be right between
    one's own two ears.

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What I don't understand is why people don't trace all this back to the Source. And[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]these are Creationists, too (I would assume), who would, as such, agree that[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]nothing exists except through the Creator God. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]But no, if it's not specifically a debate about Intelligent-Design vs. the Big-Bang[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]theory, all of a sudden the buck stops just shy of an Intelligent Designer out of[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]this apparent fear of what it might reveal. It's like they're trying to get God off[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the hook by pretending He *didn't* create all this, not realizing that one can[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]credit this world, warts and all, to Him without blaming Him for it. There's no[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]blame to be had – He's perfect, and what He made is, indeed, Good![/FONT] :)

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]And it would appear that you fail to see that the world as we know it was created[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]by God. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Are you sure you believe that God created the world? [/FONT] :)

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You claim He's holy and righteous, and I agree 100%, but then you turn around and claim[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]that His own creation deserves hell for being what He made them to be. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What’s with that? Why would a holy and righteous Deity create
    anything deserving of hell?

    PS: If the mods want to move this to the Unorthodox Discussion
    area, that's totally understandable. That's probably where this should
    be filed, anyway.
    [/FONT]
    -
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  2. Armistead14

    Armistead14 Newbie

    +49
    Baptist
    Married
    I agree, if God didn't see it coming, seems he had to come up with a plan B. If he didn't see that coming, then how can heaven ever be secure?
     
  3. stevenfrancis

    stevenfrancis Disciple

    953
    +235
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    I would hardly say that most of His creation ends up in Hell. That's a very cynical and nihilistic philosophy to hold. We are rational beings, with free will and choice. It wouldn't be fair to those who WANT to live a life of sin, to make them spend eternity in the presence of the light of God. There are some who prefer the darkness. Who, while KNOWING, and having carefully examined the truth of God, STILL choose, by preference to live in darkness and sin, and would not be in Heaven, if they were in Heaven. They would be miserable. It would BE hell. I've never done a research project, but my guess is that this would represent a very small portion of the people ever born. But even those few, get their way out of God's love.

    It's not really difficult at all. Most of us will fall into sin on occasion, due to our attraction to it, when we think of it as "good". This happens the most in our teens - early 30's. But God, knowing this, offers us His grace in the living out of our lives through the sacraments. We have communion with God, the Angels and Saints in the Mass, and the Holy Eucharist. His grace is sufficient for us. When we still fall, we have a method of reconciliation with God, and access to His unfathomable forgiveness and mercy. The more we practice our faith, the easier it is to open our hearts to His love. I know for me personally, I don't even recognize my own life and self from before by conversion to Christ. I am a new creation. We can all have this by giving ourselves over to Christ, and just start putting one foot in front of the other. Doing the next right thing, one day at a time. Making good choices. It's possible. I was, let's just say, on the wrong track for most of my life. Now I live in the Lord. It wasn't a flash of lightening. (though for some it really is that quick). It was just a little. Day by day. I applied the old WWJD principle when confronted with a moral or ethical decision instead of just "going for it". Soon.....I didn't WANT to displease God. I felt BETTER when I didn't. This leads me to believe that when I don't sin, I actually fell better than when I do. This confirmed for me that goodness is the default human condition. We actually fight AGAINST goodness, and our default nature for various chunks of our lives (different times and paths for all). Augustine said, "our hearts are restless until we rest in thee". Jesus says, His yoke is easy, and His burden is light. But He also doesn't promise a rose garden until temporal death, telling us that those who would follow Him must pick put their crosses daily.

    Here again.............if you didn't have that choice, then there is no love. We need choice in order to choose goodness, and to practice love. We need suffering to know what bliss is. We need contrast to help us understand what is good and what is evil.

    I don't know if you study philosophy, but this sounds very Neitchzean. The alternatives are bleak. This philosophy is referred to as nihilism, and it's deeply awful, even on a secular humanist level. It is what leads to despair, which leads to alcoholism, drug addiction, suicide, and moral abandon. And if those are the things we end up practicing, then those end up as our habits, and the primary influence governing our choices, which can lead to choosing hell. It's bad philosophy, and one you have the choice to chuck in the waste can, and replace with some nice Thomas Aquinas. But mostly, philosophers aside, try to trust Jesus Christ. He is, after all, the Way, the Truth and Life. As the truth, He will not lie to you about reality. As the way, He provides a path which leads to eternal bliss, and as the life, He provides a light in the darkness of death. Life everlasting in beauty and glory.

    Anyway,

    Peace to you, and may you find through prayer, the answers you seek to these questions. For me, the answer to all questions I had, turned out to be Jesus Christ. I tried self will, Scientology, Castaneda, Buddhism, New Age etc. All paths for me seemed empty, and left me feeling like you feel in your post above. I truly was restless, until I rested in Him. For me, it started with a good long, prayerful reading of the Gospels, and particularly (for me), the Gospel according to John. I learned about Eucharist from Scott Hahn (The Lamb's Supper, and now....Consuming the Word). I found Fulton Sheen to be an excellent guide through the Gospels (The Life of Christ), and Augustine to be the antidote to paganism and barbarism with "Confessions" and "City of God". I found the theologian of all theologians in St. Thomas Aquinas, and a contemporary disciple of his named "Peter Kreeft" (all you get your hands on). St. Pauls epistles. The prophets. The psalms. There is so much available which is so good for our minds and souls. That our forebears in ancient times didn't even have available to them. But without any of it, if you just ask Jesus to come into your life. If you truly invite Him, He will come to you.

    God bless,
     
  4. StephanieSomer

    StephanieSomer Regular Member

    +495
    Christian
    Single
    Very true. But, as you have pointed out, "...God created two options." Whereas we do have the option to choose wrong, we also have the option to choose right. We all have refused that option. "As it is written:“There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” That is the whole point of biblical history, to demonstrate that although we all DO have a choice, we ALL have made the wrong choice. So, yes, we DO deserve hell. All of us, sinner AND saint. Do we think we are better than they? Not in God's economy we aren't. It is ONLY IN Christ that we have promise of anything but what we deserve. None of this has taken God by surprise. It was all in His plan to show His glory and grace in providing salvation. Even at the end of the 6th day when he declared it as "very good", He knew what was coming. The reason we have such a problem understanding WHY he said it was very good even as He knew what was coming is because there is a wide expanse of future still to come that we cannot see that He has already seen. Be careful not to try to understand God's declarations from merely our perspective. Rather, recognize that even though we cannot see from His perspective, we CAN take comfort and courage in what He does say to us from His perspective. In other words, if HE says it is very good, we can be certain that although it may not appear so to US atm, it really and actually IS very good and will become apparent to us in time. HIS time.
     
  5. StephanieSomer

    StephanieSomer Regular Member

    +495
    Christian
    Single
    Because love is an act of the will. God created us to have a loving relationship with us. Not that He needs it. He wants it. It's pleasant, is it not? Without free will, we would be incapable of love.
     
  6. blankCrossfire

    blankCrossfire Hebrews 4:15-16

    365
    +17
    Christian
    The verses you posted do not deny the fact that God made man upright, good, so the scriptures still stand.

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]
    Man was given free will. Man was given the free will to obey or rebel.
    Man was tempted in the garden, convinced that he could become God, just as Satan so desired and fell as a result. God is omniscient.

    Man choosing to rebel has nothing to do with God for God gave man the command not to eat from that tree. Adam & Eve were fully responsible for their sin. You are responsible for yours. 100%.

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]
    God made man with the freedom to obey and the freedom to rebel. Man had free will to obey God or disobey God. Man was created good, upright (Genesis 1:31 / Ephesians 7:29). Scripture makes this clear. If you think otherwise, your opinion must bend the knee to God's authoritative word.

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]

    Please do, you'll be surprised.

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]
    You can blame Adam. God commanded Adam to refrain from eating the forbidden fruit. Your angst towards God is unwarranted.

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]
    God had to restrain men from sinning to show just how wicked man is. We have laws set in place to curb sin. Laws are now being undermined and what was once forbidden is now glorified. It doesn't happen on a regular basis because scripture is being fulfilled (2 Timothy 3 / etc).

    James 1:13
    Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

    I've only begun to realize that nothing you're saying here is backed by scripture. Can you show me in the bible where God says that He is responsible for sin?

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]

    God is omniscient, so no.

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]
    If Adam was a robot, you might be on to something.
    Adam had free will. Adam made the conscious decision to rebel.

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]
    So you agree that man is incapable of obeying God's law?
    This is why everyone is condemned before God. Rightly so if I might add.
    Man is guilty before God.
    God's standard is holiness. Man has fallen short. Man is responsible for falling short because of the decision that man made while even being aware of the consequences.

    Man is without excuse.

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

    Man was created good though (Genesis 1:31)
    Do you deny original sin or something?

    [/FONT]
    If man wants nothing to do with God, despises God and enjoys his sin more than Christ and ultimately dies in his sins, where will this man go?

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]
    Do you believe the bible is the authoritative word of God? (God breathed 2 Tim. 3:16)

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]
    You say you agree but accuse God of sin. God is Light and in Him there is no darkness (1 John 1:5)

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]


    The fall happened.
    [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Law-breakers must be punished. God is just also is He not?[/FONT]
     
  7. Archie the Preacher

    Archie the Preacher Apostle to the Intellectual Skeptics

    +982
    Non-Denom
    Celibate
    US-Republican
    Actually, we all deserve Hell. No one has ever lived up to God's standard. It is only through God's grace that anyone doesn't end up - down - in Hell.
     
  8. Rajni

    Rajni ☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯ Supporter

    +3,534
    United States
    Unorthodox
    Single
    They weren't intended to deny the fact that God made man upright and
    good, I've said as much myself in my post. They were in response to
    your previous question as to whether God made Satan rebel and
    makes man sin.

    My question still stands as to why you would try to tell me that God did
    not, at the very least, know in advance that Satan (and others) would
    rebel. You haven't answered that one yet.



    How could a perfect and upright creation fall? You said (and I agree)
    that God made man good. How can good sin?

    And yes, I agree, God is omniscient. :)


    Man choosing to rebel has everything to do with God, because, as you
    just said, *God* was the one who gave man the free will to obey or
    rebel. :)

    If a parent hands a toddler a sharp knife to do with as he chooses, and
    the child hurts himself with it, yes, the child inflicted the pain on
    himself, but the parent is ultimately responsible for having handed the
    child the knife in the first place, knowing that this would happen.


    That's just my point. I'm agreeing that God made man good and
    upright. And this is what makes the standard mantra that we are
    worthless and worthy of eternal hell so contradictory.



    I meant do I need to connect them for *you*, as you seem to be
    struggling with what I would think would be the obvious implications of
    divine foreknowledge.

    And whose idea was Adam? :)

    Didn't God already know that Adam would eat of the fruit anyway when
    He commanded him not to?


    My angst isn't directed towards God, as I've already made clear.

    What happened to man being good and upright? :)


    Can you show me in Scripture where it says we must back everything
    we say with Scripture? :)

    Nevertheless, where simple logic doesn't suffice, the following should
    help (and again, this is not to blame God, but simply to show that
    He's in the driver's seat).
    He turned their heart to hate His people, to plot against His
    servants. (Psalm 105:25)


    All abiding on the earth are reckoned as naught: According
    to His will
    is He doing...with those abiding on the earth.
    (Daniel 4:35)

    Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of
    him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful. (Romans 9:16)


    Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet
    whom He will, He is hardening. (Romans 9:18)


    Has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same
    kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for
    dishonor? (Romans 9:21)


    The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his
    steps (Proverbs 16:9)


    The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the
    Lord
    (Proverbs 16:33)


    Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the
    Lord will be established
    (Proverbs 19:21)


    Man's steps are ordained by the Lord (Proverbs 20:24)

    The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the
    LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes. (Proverbs 21:1)


    "For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to
    work
    for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)


    "all things through Him did happen, and without Him
    happened not even one thing that hath happened
    ." (John
    1:3)


    "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in
    Me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from Me you
    can do nothing
    ." (John 15:5)


    "I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not
    for man to direct his steps
    ." (Jeremiah 10:23)


    "But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that
    it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done
    through God
    ." (John 3:21)


    "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of
    them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your
    Father
    ." (Matthew 10:29)


    "In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined
    according to the plan of Him who works out everything
    in conformity with the purpose of His will
    ," (Ephesians
    1:11)


    "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and
    honor and power, for You created all things, and by Your
    will they were created and have their being
    ." (Revelation
    4:11)


    "Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the
    Father is in Me? The words I say to you are not just My
    own. Rather, it is the Father, living in Me, who is doing
    His work
    ." (John 14:10)


    "Jesus gave them this answer: 'I tell you the truth, the Son
    can do nothing by Himself
    ; He can do only what He sees His
    Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son
    also does.'" (John 5:19)


    There are different kinds of working, but the same God
    works all of them in all men
    . (1 Corinthians 12:6)


    From one man He made every nation of men, that they
    should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined the
    times set for them and the exact places where they should
    live
    . (Acts 17:26)


    For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but
    men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy
    Spirit
    . (2 Peter 1:21)


    For I have come down from heaven not to do My will but to
    do the will of Him who sent Me
    . (John 6:38)


    Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the
    Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire
    against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed. They
    did what Your power and will had decided beforehand
    should happen. (Acts 4:27-28)


    And He made known to us the mystery of His will
    according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in
    Christ
    , to be put into effect when the times will have
    reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and
    on earth together under one head, even Christ. (Ephesians
    1:9-10)


    "Who has withstood His intention?" (Rom. 9:19)

    "For the Lord of Hosts has planned it, who can frustrate
    it
    ?" (Is. 14:27)


    "God gives them (Israel) a spirit of stupor" (Rom. 11:8)

    "The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even
    the wicked
    for the day of evil" (Pv. 16:4)


    "God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He
    should be merciful to all" (Rom. 11:32)


    "We cannot arrange our case because of darkness" (Job
    37:19)


    "Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with
    it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it?"
    (Is. 10:15)


    You will be given grass...until you recognize that the Most
    High is ruler over the realm of mankind
    " (Dan. 4:32)


    Isaiah 45:7
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and
    create evil
    :

    I the LORD do all these things.

    Lamentations 3:38 – "Is it not from the mouth of the Most
    High
    That

    both good and ill go forth?"

    Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech
    and the
    men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt
    treacherously with
    Abimelech:

    1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul,
    and an
    evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

    1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now,
    an evil
    spirit from God troubleth thee.

    1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which
    are
    before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player
    on an harp:
    and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit
    from God
    is upon
    thee, that he shall play with his hand, and
    thou shalt be well.


    1Sa 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from
    God
    was
    upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played
    with his hand: so
    Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the
    evil spirit departed from
    him.

    1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil
    spirit
    from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the
    midst of the
    house:

    1Sa 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul,
    as he
    sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and
    David played with
    his hand.

    1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying
    spirit in
    the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD
    hath spoken evil
    concerning thee.

    2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a
    lying spirit in
    the mouth of these thy prophets, and the
    LORD hath spoken evil
    against thee.


    (continued in next post)
     
  9. Rajni

    Rajni ☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯ Supporter

    +3,534
    United States
    Unorthodox
    Single
    Continued from my previous post.
    Who was responsible for giving Adam free will (a concept that the
    above verses call into question, by the way), fully knowing, in His
    Omniscience, what Adam would wind up doing with it?
    You completely missed my point.

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If a fallible human is responsible for what *he* does, then don't you
    think that a
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Perfect, All Powerful, All-Knowing God would be
    responsible for what *He* does?
    [/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]A simple yes or no will suffice. :)[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]See -- there it is, right there. The disconnect. In the same breath you
    agree that man was created good, and then follow it up with 'original
    sin'. So, like, which is it? Is man good, or not?
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]It's the sick who need the physician, yes? So he will go to be healed, if
    such is necessary. God is the Savior of *all* men, "especially" (not
    "exclusively") of believers.
    [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif](1 Timothy 2:4) For God to create man
    knowing man would mess up and then send him to hell for it is like a
    woman conceiving a child while already planning ahead of time to
    abort her. If that's all He's going to do with someone, why bother
    bringing them into the world at all to start with?
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You dodged my question: Are you *sure* you believe that God created
    the world?
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]*Everything* is God-breathed, that's kind of been my point from
    square one. :) He's the Creator, although you don't seem to think so.
    So again, please clarify: do *you* believe that God created the world
    as we know it?
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]And I agree, though I don't accuse Him of anything. You're reading
    accusation into it because this whole exercise is causing you to think
    about this in a way that they probably don't cover in the standard bible
    study. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Since God is Light and in Him there is no darkness, why all the
    hand-wringing among the majority of Christians about evil and sin and
    pitching God's "good and upright" creations into hell for eternity? [/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Either God is Good and Christians are wrong about sin, or God isn't so
    good and Christians are right about sin.[/FONT]
    How can "good and upright" fall?
    He sure is. So exactly what would be just about Him creating someone
    that He knew in advance He'd be pitching into hell in the end anyway?




    -
     
  10. ChristsSoldier115

    ChristsSoldier115 Mabaho na Kuya

    +1,563
    Baptist
    In Relationship
    Whats so hard to understand that God cannot ever be wrong in what He does? That is what makes Him God. He is always right no matter what. Your idea of right is just confused because of that sin nature you were born with perverts your idea of fairness and justice. Submit to the will of of the Holy Spirit already and be thankful for your salvation of a loving graceful God.

    Don't like the idea of your friends and family suffering in hell? Why aren't you witnessing to them in hope of them changing their mind? Don't forget about the great commission. That is a real christian duty that all christians are responsible for and we all fail to really work to do.
     
  11. blankCrossfire

    blankCrossfire Hebrews 4:15-16

    365
    +17
    Christian
    God can know full well that Adam will go out of his way to take an apple even having forbid him from taking that apple. That does not excuse the fact that he knew full well the consequences of disobeying His command. I did not tell him to go and steal the apple, in fact He told him the opposite!

    For Adam or anyone to defend such such a heinous act is absurd wouldn't you agree? Adam blamed his wife. Adam could not shift the blame to God as you are doing for even he knew better than to do something like that...

    Man is subject to God. Made good, upright.
    Man was deceived into thinking this no longer had to be the case.
    Man as a result, fell.

    You are looking at this a bit too simplistically.
    You are ignoring the fact that man had free will to obey or rebel and in your responses later in your post, is a major flaw as a result of this kind of thinking.

    The scenario you've posed is in no way similar to the events that happened in the garden. No matter how you spin it, Adam (man) made the conscious decision to rebel just as you and I made/make conscious decisions to sin.

    Connecting the dots would only prove one of 2 things.
    Either God is a liar or you are.

    Are these verses in relation to fallen man or before man fell?
    What is the context of these verses?

    If I kill someone, can I say God made me do it?
    Please read Romans 9. You quoted Romans 9 in that slew of texts, you shouldn't be asking this question since Romans 9 addresses this very question...

    This is the problem with your theology.
    You say that God will save people who have not even accepted Christ.
    Your theology isn't even biblical.
    How can you say that someone who dies in their sin rejecting Christ even to his last breath will be saved?

    You put absolutely no accountability on man.
    You shift all of the blame to God and in doing so, come to the conclusion that God must save all men.

    The truth of the matter is, God is not obligated to save anyone.
    After all, all have sinned and the wages of sin is death.

    Ezekiel 18:20
    The soul who sins shall die.

    Repentance is non-existent from all that I've seen you post.
    After all, what does man have to repent of?
    God will restore what went bad. After all, he must or what does that make him, right?

    Where does that leave man?
    What is man accountable of?
     
  12. Rajni

    Rajni ☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯ Supporter

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    The idea that perfect people can fall puts the future of
    heaven on very precarious footing. Because, if perfection
    can fail, then not even heaven is secure. The whole thing
    could happen again in the future.

    Besides that, how perfect is a free will that chooses to do wrong?

    I think I've already shown you what scripture has to say
    about just how 'free' human wills are. :)

    It's very similar. God gave Adam a will that, apparently,
    Adam didn't have the maturity to handle. Injury followed.

    In what way? Are you saying it's a lie that God knew
    beforehand how things would go down in the Garden?

    The context of the verses is that God is God, to put it
    simply. As the saying goes, "God is in control"! :)

    I'm asking you if God is responsible for what He does
    (this is a yes/no question, remember) and you don't seem
    to like where that's going, even after I specified—right
    there in that very question—that man is responsible for
    what he does.

    I just showed you scripture that says that very thing.

    Through Scripture, as I've just demonstrated (though I
    realize that no two Christians necessarily view the
    scriptures in the exact same way. Thank God for
    30,000+ denominations, eh?). :)

    Not exactly. Man can and should still be held
    accountable for the crimes he commits, and misconduct
    does carry it's own consequences built right in.

    My issue is with the sadistic idea that *finite* wrongdoing
    must receive *infinite* punishment. It glorifies the sin
    by making it look like not even God Himself can totally
    eradicate it, ever. It also diminishes all that Jesus went
    through to save mankind from sin. To think that He went
    through all that and won't get, in return, every last scrap
    of what He paid for is rather pessimistic, not to mention
    that it demonstrates little faith in the efficacy of Christ's
    sacrifice.

    He's also not obligated to send anyone to hell, either, a
    solution that would be far beneath Him anyway (pardon
    the pun :)).

    Hmmm... I could have sworn Jesus took that on Himself
    at the cross. ;)

    Besides, if by 'death' you mean 'an eternity in hell', then
    the death Jesus died in our place would have had to have
    been 'an eternity in hell'. But Scripture has Him rising
    again in 3 days. So death can't mean 'an eternity in hell'.

    That would depend on what you mean by the word.
    I've done quite a bit of repenting, just not in the ways that would
    satisfy you personally. But repentance was never about satisfying
    the other guy, right? :)


    You mean "Behold, I make *all things* new"?:)

    One can still have accountability without sadism.

    Of course, if I accept the partialist soteriology of
    mainstream Christianity and there really is an eternal hell,
    and if perfect, upright beings can, indeed, fall, then who
    knows how long heaven will really last? Hell might well
    wind up with everyone, sooner or later.

    Thank God for the scriptures that suggest otherwise. :)


     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2014
  13. christ disciple

    christ disciple Newbie

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    Better yet, if there had to be a plan "B" then God would not be God would He?

    There is no plan "B" if you are Omniscient, is there?
     
  14. ChristsSoldier115

    ChristsSoldier115 Mabaho na Kuya

    +1,563
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    I think that our understanding on what omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence is... limits our understanding of God's reasoning.

    People always ask me these questions:

    God knows everything God can do anything. What was stopping God from just forgiving Adam right then and there for Adam's transgression towards God? Why does He need to sacrifice Himself to Himself to fix the problem?

    I still think long and hard to figure out a good answer. There is something we're missing in the Bible that explains God's nature. Quite frankly, its more of a human problem of our limited nature than God's problem. or maybe I am missing something in my neglect of reading the OT until recently.
     
  15. blankCrossfire

    blankCrossfire Hebrews 4:15-16

    365
    +17
    Christian


    You've quoted a slew of texts but ask questions that are already answered in the texts you've provided. I'm starting to believe you haven't even read the texts you posted or the context.

    Romans 8
    This idea of heaven not being secure is another rabbit trail you've gone down as a result of your unorthodox theology.

    Once again, you continue to throw the blame of man fully towards God.

    Romans 9, scripture you've quoted answers your question. My answer is the same. Have you read Romans 9?

    As you've demonstrated throughout your posts, man is not accountable because man does not get what he deserves.

    You refuse to accept what the bible says regarding men who sin and die in their sins. I don't think you know what accountable means when you reject hell and God's abhorrent view of sin.



    Romans 1
    Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

    I would encourage you to read the book of Romans.

    When God gives up men to the desires of their sin, because they reject the truth, what is the end result?

    If God will save all men as you propose, why are many on the broad road that leads to destruction? You say there is one road. The bible says there's two. Who's right? You or God?

    You said God is just. A just God will punish law breakers.
    I provided scripture that proves that and scripture that demonstrates man's sinfulness.

    But as I mentioned earlier, you put no accountability upon man so the just thing to do is to redeem everyone. We both know that atheists do not believe in Jesus Christ. To say that people who willfully reject the gospel and will be saved is to reject Jesus Christ's own words. (John 3:16-18)

    According to you, man does not even have to believe in God.
    It's God's fault, God will pick up the pieces. This kind of rationalization is absurd when placed next to God's word.

    You don't even subscribe to biblical definitions.
    You've concocted your own. It's evident that your opinion is greater than God's word.

    Daniel 12:2

    And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
    Some to everlasting life,
    Some to shame and everlasting contempt



    John 10:27
    My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish

    Once again, either Jesus Christ is a liar, or you are.
    Who's lying?
    When you come to such conclusions, you put Jesus Christ's own affirmations on trial. You make Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, someone who cannot be trusted.

    Your reasoning contradicts scripture.
    The conclusions you've come up with question God's authoritative word.
    Selective reading has shipwrecked the faith of many when they don't bend their knee to the full account of God's word. I would encourage you to read all of John 10 to get the full context.

    1 John 3:8-10
    He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

    You can continue to reject the clear distinctions between God's children (Sheep) and those who are not of God, children of the devil (Goats). Doing so will breed more and more error, like rejecting the doctrine of hell, sin, penalty of sin, even the gospel.

    Repentance and Faith in Christ is not even necessary in the gospel you preach.
    You preach a false gospel.


     
  16. Rajni

    Rajni ☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯ Supporter

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    Blank, I'm seriously starting to wonder if there's a language-barrier
    thing going on here, as you don't seem to understand the most basic
    aspects of what I'm trying to convey to you.

    There's nothing more I can say to you that I haven't said already, and
    either English is not your first language, or you're being deliberately
    evasive.

    It's apparent that you desperately need there to be a hell for those you
    don't like. I get that.

    Therefore, "be it unto *you* according to *your* faith." ;)

    -
     
  17. christ disciple

    christ disciple Newbie

    +15
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    There are two things God cannot do.

    1) God cannot lie.

    2) God cannot change.

    As for God's reasoning in doing it the way He did. He wanted to display His Glory by displaying Himself and His nature.

    He could have done as you suggested, but then how would we know the extent of His Love. He wants to display Himself and His Glory, does He not?
     
  18. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    +9,620
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    How is the whole "telling God He's doing it wrong" thing working for you?

    And why are you posting in a forum marked "orthodox Christians only"?
     
  19. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    Possibly his opinion is based on what he reads in the Bible.

    And why do you have a Catholic icon when you deny basic Catholic teachings? :confused:
     
  20. Rajni

    Rajni ☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯ Supporter

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    More accurately, his opinion is based on his preferred interpretation of
    what he reads in the bible.

    Because I'm a Catholic by baptism. It would be naive to think that
    every Catholic out there agrees with every single thing taught therein.
    We're Catholics, not robots. :)

    In the same way, not everyone with a Christian icon actually believes
    that God is God. For some strange reason. They're the ones I usually
    end up disagreeing with.

    Anyway... given what popes have had to say about the subject at hand,
    what part of "basic Catholic teaching" have I been denying in this
    thread?
    “Christ, Redeemer of man, now for ever “clad in a robe dipped in
    blood” (Apoc, 19,13), the everlasting, invincible guarantee of
    universal salvation.” ~ Pope John Paul II (and there's
    more where that came from
    )

    “For the whole of mankind was freed from the slavery of sin by the
    shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ as their ransom, and there is no
    one who is excluded from the benefit of this Redemption …” ~ Pope
    Benedict XV, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum, #1, 1914.
    -
     
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