We Don't Deserve Hell

ViaCrucis

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Why create a species that is flawed, then punish us for being flawed as if it is our fault? He condemns us for acting in the way that he created us. the bible speaks as if we don't deserve forgiveness, but we really do. We didn't ask to be created and did not ask for the opportunity of hell. I much rather have no free will and live in peace, then to have hell. It's especially a joke since most of His creation ends up in Hell anyways.

Why make it so difficult to follow God? What is the purpose of us choosing him? Is it a nice ego boost?

Thank you so much for creating me just so that I can turn to you and make a choice of following you. So glad my life is so purposeful.

I do not mean be so harsh with these statements, but it really does sound a bit ridiculous

A few points:

1) The capacity of choice in Adam and Eve wasn't a flaw.

2) We aren't condemned because we have a flawed design. We're condemned because we actively choose to be outside of the redemptive, creative purposes of God. And don't think of condemnation as a bit of divine spite, that's not what it is; it's a truthful statement about who and what we are in our sin.

3) Hell isn't punishment for being a bad person. Hell is the reality of sin and death bearing fruit. Death begets death, the only way to be saved from death is someone saving you from it.

4) Christianity isn't about following the Law. The Law is important, it tells us what God expects of us as creatures made in His image--to love and serve our neighbor and to honor God our maker, but that isn't what Christianity is about. Christianity is about the Gospel, the God who condescends to rescue us from sin and death, to deliver us to Himself and take us safely to the other side of death: resurrection.

Nobody is saved by "choosing God", nobody is saved by following the commandments, nobody is justified by doing the right things, thinking the right things, or saying the right things. Salvation is the gracious work of God accomplished in and through the Lord Jesus Christ by His death and resurrection, to take us and justify us freely by grace, to turn us toward Him through faith, and to have faith that even though in the present we remain in the present reality of sin and death, that reality is already overcome in and by Jesus and in Jesus you and I--and all creation--is being redeemed and brought out from it, to be safe, saved, on the last day when God makes all things new.

As much as the Law tells us what we must do, it condemns us for not doing it. The Law reveals us to be sinners, simply by being what it is--righteous and holy. In the face of God's naked righteousness we are revealed to be unrighteous sinners dead in our sins and dying. Which is why nobody is saved, nobody is justified, by the Law. The Law does not--it cannot--justify. It's the Gospel that saves, the Gospel that justifies sinners. By taking you, sinner that you are, and clothing you with Jesus Christ and His righteousness, and giving you the promise and guarantee that you are part of God's future world, that when He makes all things new He is going to raise you up to new, eternal, imperishable, and immortal life to stand with Him and in His glory in that coming world, the World to Come.

The wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness, not as though God is emotively peeved off or spiteful; but because God in His justice and His righteousness stands as an all-consuming fire. And thus to see God naked in His pure righteousness is to tremble and be terrified. But that isn't how God wishes you to know Him, He wishes you to know Him through faith, He wishes you to know Him in Jesus Christ, God with us. For in Christ and by Christ God is for us, not against us. And through faith we see the friendly, fatherly heart of God. To know Him as Father, to know Him clothed in the grace and mercy of Jesus, because that's who God really is. The Son came to make the Father known, the Son came to show us the Father, and "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father" because in Jesus we see God as God is. Who as the Good Creator God has made this world good and sees to it to make it good again.

Wrath is unrighteous man looking upon God in His righteousness, naked and bare--and yes that is a terrifying thing. But, again, this isn't how God wishes you or I to know Him, and He has seen to it that He will be a Father to us, He has willed that us sinners be redeemed, justified, and reconciled to Himself, for He is unwilling that any should perish, but that all be saved.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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fhansen

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Thank you. Do you think that their ignorance made them a bit less culpable for their sin? Some seem to think it shouldn't but I tend to think it did.
Here, I'll give it a shot. :)

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". PS 9:10, 110:10
Adam possessed a perfection proper to his nature, as all creation does; he was perfectly human, perfectly man, not perfect in the sense of God's perfection, who alone is all-in-all, but perfectly good as a creation of God. Adam may well have possessed perfect knowledge, at least that knowledge which was proper to his nature, as well as whatever other knowledge God may've endowed him with, including the knowledge that He, God, must be obeyed. And Adam possessed other gifts such as immortality so long as he remained obedient. But apparently he lacked the wisdom to obey God, to heed His command. He must not have feared Him and His will enough to obey Him, and, more importantly, he must not have loved God enough to obey Him, which, willful, loving obedience, is the basis of the New Covenant incidentally.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom".
I think Adam was perfect in knowledge but lacked the wisdom to use it appropriately: perfect in knowledge, not yet perfect in wisdom. I appreciate a teaching that says God created His universe in a "state of journeying to perfection". While He didn't desire Adam to Fall, God nonetheless knew he would do so, and deemed it worthwhile to create anyway, purposing to bring an even greater good out of the evil that He knew would occur.
 
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Emmy

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Dear IronicallyHuman. You had some good replies, may I just say one thing more: God is Love, God created us in His image and God Loves us. We were given free will, rather than be made puppets who do as being told. We can follow God`s Commandments, or go our own way, and since Jesus our Saviour, paid our debt to God`s Eternal Law of Justice, we have been given only Two Commandments. Those two Commandments SAY ALL what God told us in Ten Commandments: " Jesus told a Lawyer in Matthew 22: 35-40:
" The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself." Then Jesus stated this great fact: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God wants our Love for God, with all our beings, and also love for our neighbour as we love ourselves: all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends. A good way is to treat everybody as we LOVE to be treated. God will see our sincere efforts, and God will approve and Bless us.
In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " Ask and ye shall receive," then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with all around us. We keep asking God and thanking God, then we share all Love and Joy with our neighbour.
The Bible tells us to " Repent," and to " Be BORN AGAIN. We have to change our selfishness to love and care for all around us. Jesus will help
and guide us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY. Satan and all his followers will run away from Love and Compassion. I say this with love, IronicallyHuman.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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Emmyc

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Okay so here’s my two cents:

Life sometimes sucks, and it mostly sucks because people don’t listen to God. We hurt one another instead of loving one another. We all put ourselves first, and our desires, and our comfort etc…. If everyone went to heaven without obeying Christ then Heaven would be no better then Earth, it would be exactly the same as we already have without Christ: Selfish people hurting each other all trying to meet their own selfish needs.

So not everyone could go to heaven…. Then why make people free to sin at all? I am not God but I have a guess, I THINK it is because to make the BEST possible world people had to be free…. I can’t imagine what a world without free will would be like, but it may not have the creativity, diversity, or…. Well who knows how it would be different but it probably wouldn’t be as good. We just trust that God knew what he was doing.

So what about everyone else.

I don’t know. Maybe God teaches them in hell and eventually they learn and get a chance to choose heaven? Maybe they just die…. Just stop existing?

And would that be so terrible? If there was no God that’s how the world would be. People would just die… just stop being at all anywhere… As if they never were.

Think about it this way: When you carve a sculpture out of wood some shaving are cut off and fall to the ground. They are eventually swept up, and tossed into the fire to be destroyed. It may be sad that those loose pieces are gone forever and will never be part of the wood again… but so sad that it isn’t worth there being a sculpture at all?
 
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dhh712

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Why create a species that is flawed, then punish us for being flawed as if it is our fault? He condemns us for acting in the way that he created us. the bible speaks as if we don't deserve forgiveness, but we really do. We didn't ask to be created and did not ask for the opportunity of hell. I much rather have no free will and live in peace, then to have hell. It's especially a joke since most of His creation ends up in Hell anyways.

Why make it so difficult to follow God? What is the purpose of us choosing him? Is it a nice ego boost?

Thank you so much for creating me just so that I can turn to you and make a choice of following you. So glad my life is so purposeful.

I would urge you to fall back upon your first love of God (your Christian icon suggests to me that at one time you loved Him, and maybe still do). Trust that He knows what is best. The disobedience that brought about all this that you think you don't want was the inability to trust God--thinking that we know what is best for us, a desire to push God out of His place of sovereignty over us and to take the reign of our lives into our own hands, the result which as you know was seemingly insurmountable sorrow.

There is no words I can say which will magically make trusting God desirable to you. The only thing I can say to you is to focus on the cross. Get yourself out of your mind and focus on Him. The words which you wrote lead me to conclude that you do want things to be good for you though. The pride of mankind is that he believes he knows how to do this for himself when in reality only God knows how to make things good for us and only He can provide us that which will satisfy what we are longing for and what we really need.


I do not mean be so harsh with these statements, but it really does sound a bit ridiculous

I don't think you are harsh. Rather I feel you have come to a very reasonable conclusion: if God created everything and especially fore-ordained all that has and will happen, then it is only reasonable to conclude that all this sin and misery was something that He arranged in the first place. Since man can create nothing and everything comes from God, it follows logically that all the sick, twisted things that go on in the world come from God. This is the reasonable conclusion of a thinking, inquiring mind.

Yet we must trust God, that which He has communicated to us through His word, and not what worldly reasoning tells us--and this can only come from an ability to love God, from knowing that He is all good and from experiencing Him. We must love Him above our own ability to reason things out and not accept only that which makes sense to us. I can't tell you how to do this beyond suggesting prayer and reading the Bible. It is not something any human can attain to on his own.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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You know I'm surprised the question of, "Well, why God didn't just forgive man and wash away his sins right then and there instead of waiting 5000 years?" hasn't cropped up yet.

I'm still formulating a logical answer to that one, other than my half made one of, "because a infinite eternal being views time differently than us."
 
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fhansen

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You know I'm surprised the question of, "Well, why God didn't just forgive man and wash away his sins right then and there instead of waiting 5000 years?" hasn't cropped up yet.

I'm still formulating a logical answer to that one, other than my half made one of, "because a infinite eternal being views time differently than us."
He didn't prevent man from sinning, or immediately forgive and restore him to the heights from which he fell, because He always had a plan-to allow us to fall into exile if we so chose (via Adam), to fall into a pigsty, relatively speaking, effectively separated from Him-a place where both good and evil are literally known- the ultimate evil being death, so that, with time and experience and grace we can learn of our utter need for and dependency on Him and of His sheer goodness and trustworthiness and then turn, like Prodigals, back to the Father who waits with open arms. He's working on our wills here. He didn't force Adam to obey and He won't force us to now. He's patiently working with us, drawing all of creation to, ultimately, freely align itself with His perfect will.
 
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Emmy

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Dear Ironically Human. God created us in His image, and God is Love. Adam and Eve our proto-types, started our downfall. We were capable of much Love,
but instead Adam and Eve believed a lying Serpent, rather than God our Heavenly Father. God had warned Adam and Eve, and they ended up by believing a liar. They died to the Garden of Eden, life with God, and were banished to Earth. The Bible tells us what happened then, instead of repenting and having learned, we, all who came after Adam and Eve, grew ever farther from God our Heavenly Father.
In time Jesus our Saviour came to Earth and told us what God wants from us really. Jesus died that we might live, Jesus paid the Prize that we could not pay. Now we are free to follow Jesus back to God again. Jesus told us what God wants from us: in Matthew 22: 35-40: 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. 2) Love our neighbour as we love ourselves. Matthew 7: 7-10: tells us what to do: "ask and ye shall receive,"
the we thank God and share all Love and Joy ( what we ask for) share all with our neighbour: all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends. We keep asking for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all with all around us.
God will see our sincere efforts, and God will approve and Bless us.
The Bible tells us to " Repent," and to " Be Born Again," to change our old character of selfishness and unloving, to become Loving God with all our beings, and loving our neighbour as we love ourselves. God wants our Love,
freely given and No conditions tagged on. Love is very catching and Love will change us soon into the men and women which God wants us to be. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on:
Loving and Caring. Love is a Christian`s great weapon, Love will overcome all adversity and wrong behaviour. Jesus our Saviour will help and guide us:
JESUS IS THE WAY. God is Love and God wants our love, freely given and NO
tags attached. We have to ask and receive, then thank God and share all Love and Compassion with all around us. Let us Love and help Jesus to change this imperfect world gradually, but surly into a world of which God approves.
I say this love, Ironically Human. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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Armistead14

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Adam and Eve had not yet eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They did not "know" about evil yet. All they knew was good. When they were tempted, they understood then that there was something they didn't know. They were perfect, but they did not have all God's "knowledge" - and that is what they wanted, just like Satan, to be like God in his knowledge.

Seems to be able to make a correct decision about good or evil, you would need the knowledge to do so. Also seems they had the sin character in them, as Eve lusted to be like God, she just didn't have the right brain cells to see her decision was wrong.

Next concern, why didn't God just get rid of Satan when he fell, instead of placing him on earth with man. Why place a evil angel with so much power to tempt a woman that doesn't have the brain cells yet to know right from wrong? Why place the tree in the garden?

Seems all the pieces were put into place for man to fall.
 
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seeingeyes

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Seems to be able to make a correct decision about good or evil, you would need the knowledge to do so. Also seems they had the sin character in them, as Eve lusted to be like God, she just didn't have the right brain cells to see her decision was wrong.

Next concern, why didn't God just get rid of Satan when he fell, instead of placing him on earth with man. Why place a evil angel with so much power to tempt a woman that doesn't have the brain cells yet to know right from wrong? Why place the tree in the garden?

Seems all the pieces were put into place for man to fall.

Too right.

Man
Woman
Forbidden fruit
Tempter

Put all ingredients in a bowl and mix well.

Could there be a better recipe for sin?
 
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Emmy

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Dear IronicallyHuman. God mad us in His image, and God is Love. What God wants from us is told us by Jesus, in Matthew 22: 35-40: 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our soul, and with all our minds. 2) Love our neighbour as we love ourselves. The Bible, God`s Word to us, tells us to " Repent," and also to " Be Born Again." To repent means to be extremely SORRY for being
how we are: selfish and unloving/uncaring, and to become as God wants us to be: to be BORN AGAIN as the loving sons and daughters, which God wants.
In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told to ask and receive, and we ask for Love and Joy. Then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour:
all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends. We keep asking God for
Love and Joy, then thank God and share all with all around us.
God will see our sincere efforts, and God will approve and Bless us. We will find that we are slowly changing into the Loving and Caring men and women
which God wants us to become.
Hell is a place without God`s Love or Light, a place in OUTER DARKNESS.
We know that we have free will, and we know what God wants from us,
we also know that God will not force us. WITH GOD OR WITHOUT GOD.
God wants our Love, freely given and NO conditions tagged on.
What else is there?? Ironically Human? In Luke 10: 25-28: Jesus tells a Lawyer: " Ye know the two Commandments to Love God and love your neighbour? DO THIS AND YE SHALL LIVE." Let us choose Life and Love and Joy with God our Heavenly Father and our Christian brothers and sisters,
and become sign-posts to God. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy,
your sister in Christ.
 
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Rajni

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The alternative being humans would not have the ability to choose, or what is termed as 'free will'. You would prefer to be a docile being, incapable of objecting to anything, always following?
Sounds like "Not my will but Thine be done", to me. How is this not a
worthy ideal in Christianity? :)

He didn't prevent man from sinning, or immediately forgive and restore him to the heights from which he fell, because He always had a plan-to allow us to fall into exile if we so chose (via Adam), to fall into a pigsty, relatively speaking, effectively separated from Him-a place where both good and evil are literally known- the ultimate evil being death, so that, with time and experience and grace we can learn of our utter need for and dependency on Him and of His sheer goodness and trustworthiness and then turn, like Prodigals, back to the Father who waits with open arms. He's working on our wills here. He didn't force Adam to obey and He won't force us to now. He's patiently working with us, drawing all of creation to, ultimately, freely align itself with His perfect will.
I'm inclined to agree. It's not as though the fall was something He
didn't see coming. I'm also of the mind that this plan of His includes
more than just a select few (I would have to be, as I'm one of those
rare birds who isn't especially keen on the seemingly (and surprisingly)
popular idea that Jesus's clearly-stated mission—Savior of the World
(not just a fraction thereof)—fell short of the goal).

Seems to be able to make a correct decision about good or evil, you would need the knowledge to do so. Also seems they had the sin character in them, as Eve lusted to be like God, she just didn't have the right brain cells to see her decision was wrong.

Next concern, why didn't God just get rid of Satan when he fell, instead of placing him on earth with man. Why place a evil angel with so much power to tempt a woman that doesn't have the brain cells yet to know right from wrong? Why place the tree in the garden?

Seems all the pieces were put into place for man to fall.
Good points. And I agree, God was behind the wheel the whole time,
and I don't see Him penalizing His passengers for sliding around in their
seats a bit whenever He was making those fancy sharp-turns! :)

Too right.

Man
Woman
Forbidden fruit
Tempter

Put all ingredients in a bowl and mix well.

Could there be a better recipe for sin?
This reminds me of a verse that suggests the deliberateness of God in
bringing about this scenario:
Romans 11:32 - "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."
Sounds more like a premeditated plan than an adventitious accident to me! :)

The glorious implications of the latter part of that verse, of course,
would probably necessitate transplanting this thread over to the
Unorthodox Discussion section, though. ^_^



-
 
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daniel777

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Why create a species that is flawed, then punish us for being flawed as if it is our fault? He condemns us for acting in the way that he created us. the bible speaks as if we don't deserve forgiveness, but we really do. We didn't ask to be created and did not ask for the opportunity of hell. I much rather have no free will and live in peace, then to have hell. It's especially a joke since most of His creation ends up in Hell anyways.

Why make it so difficult to follow God? What is the purpose of us choosing him? Is it a nice ego boost?

Thank you so much for creating me just so that I can turn to you and make a choice of following you. So glad my life is so purposeful.

I do not mean be so harsh with these statements, but it really does sound a bit ridiculous
You aren't going to like my answer, but it looks ridiculous because you are not God. I think we have to be careful when we try to view things from his point of view.

Here are the problem assumptions you're making:
1. God created a flawed species.
2. God judges that species for being what he made them to be.
3. We deserve forgiveness (and i would ask for what, given 1. and 2.)

The bible doesn't teach those, and so I'm not surprised it looks ridiculous once you plug your own contrary ideas into it.
 
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Why create a species that is flawed, then punish us for being flawed as if it is our fault? He condemns us for acting in the way that he created us. the bible speaks as if we don't deserve forgiveness, but we really do. We didn't ask to be created and did not ask for the opportunity of hell. I much rather have no free will and live in peace, then to have hell. It's especially a joke since most of His creation ends up in Hell anyways.

Why make it so difficult to follow God? What is the purpose of us choosing him? Is it a nice ego boost?

Thank you so much for creating me just so that I can turn to you and make a choice of following you. So glad my life is so purposeful.

I do not mean be so harsh with these statements, but it really does sound a bit ridiculous


Why bring order out of chaos?

Why create man at all?

We are not necessary, are we?

As far as an ego boost, why would He need to do that?

Who is He trying to impress? Why?

Do not people only boast to build themselves up because of their insecurities?

To try to prove they are something that they are not?

Is God insecure of who He is?

By the way, if you want to blame sin on anyone try Adam.

Are we not his children?

Do we not take after him?

Apart from God, can we do anything else but sin?

So, what is God trying to say to us about going it alone?

There in lies the decision. Shall we continue to think we are "god" as the serpent fed the lie to us or shall we recognize our state?

Is He(God) not trying to show us that we are utterly dependent upon Him?

So, as far as our condition, yes we deserve hell.

Is He to blame? No.

Our continuing to go in the direction of sin is our own doing.

Question is why do we not change?
 
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I am hearing a lot of "We are the ones who choose sin." But I did not choose to be able to choose sin. So who made that choice for me? God did. God created my want for sin. And if it's satan. Then who made satan to want to choose evil? Or a pt least have the option of choosing evil? And yes I would rather be a robot just following god. What is so bad about not have any free will? We wouldn't feel robotic. And heaven would not be chaos if we were aloud up there. Because no sin in heaven means we aren't sin. I don't understand what is so hard to grasp about God can do anything. God can just wash it off of us and the fact that he doesn't confuses me.
 
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I am hearing a lot of "We are the ones who choose sin." But I did not choose to be able to choose sin. So who made that choice for me? God did. God created my want for sin. And if it's satan. Then who made satan to want to choose evil? Or a pt least have the option of choosing evil? And yes I would rather be a robot just following god. What is so bad about not have any free will? We wouldn't feel robotic. And heaven would not be chaos if we were aloud up there. Because no sin in heaven means we aren't sin. I don't understand what is so hard to grasp about God can do anything. God can just wash it off of us and the fact that he doesn't confuses me.

God gave man the ability to choose without His input. Where did it get him?

He also did this with Lucifer(Satan).

What happens to those who are not upheld by Him?


Law of entropy says that all order eventually becomes disorder when left to itself and requires energy go resist disorder.

Is that not what we do to remain alive.

So, if God chooses not to uphold/sustain us with His power is He wrong for doing so?

Is He not merely showing that we are not God and not self-sustaining?


So then. what do you choose?

We are either slaves to our own sin without His enablement or slaves of righteousness by the power of His righteous right hand.


By not removing His hand we don't have the apparent "free will", do we?

There is no "free will". We are slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness.

So, our nature determines which route we go.

Before Christ we are naturally hell bent and after receiving a new nature in Christ we are heaven bent.

Do you really want to argue "free will"?

Isn't that how we got here in the first place?

Adam and Eve wanted to be "Gods".

They wanted to be in control. How did that work out?

We all have a choice. Continue in our natural state without God or surrender.

Either way we are slaves.

Question is who do you want for your master?

Personally, as a slave of righteousness my will has been freed from the bondage of sin. Those under sin have no such freedom.

Again, judge for yourself. Which is the better deal?

By the way, Do not people "freely" choose to go to hell?
 
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blankCrossfire

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I am hearing a lot of "We are the ones who choose sin." But I did not choose to be able to choose sin.

If what you're saying is true, you should be able to stop sinning completely.
Why won't you stop sinning?
Are you meaning to tell me that sin is not a choice?

When you lie, you are not making the conscious decision to lie?
What about when you steal? lust? Disobey your parents? Do you blame God for actions you willfully commit?

So who made that choice for me? God did. God created my want for sin.

No. If you think for a second that you're wiser or more clever than Satan, well you're deceived already. In fact, Satan continues to deceive the world. Thinking that God is responsible for Sin is proof of that.

And if it's satan. Then who made satan to want to choose evil? Or a pt least have the option of choosing evil?

God did not create robots but beings with free will. 1/3 of the angels sided with Lucifer.

And yes I would rather be a robot just following god. What is so bad about not have any free will? We wouldn't feel robotic.

In a sense, you are a robot. Unless the Holy Spirit dwells within you, (Born Again) you are a slave to sin. You have no free will. Your will is bent on sinning continually. But the good news is that God sent his Son to free us from sin (John 8).

And heaven would not be chaos if we were aloud up there. Because no sin in heaven means we aren't sin. I don't understand what is so hard to grasp about God can do anything. God can just wash it off of us and the fact that he doesn't confuses me.

Why would God wash people who have no desire to be washed?
Why do you think God is obligated to wash people in the first place?

Can I commit murder then demand that I be set free because the judge has the power to do so? What if I don't want to be set free? What if I enjoy it? Help me understand.
 
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Rajni

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No. If you think for a second that you're wiser or more clever than Satan, well you're deceived already. In fact, Satan continues to deceive the world. Thinking that God is responsible for Sin is proof of that.
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]And who created Satan? :)
[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]What many Christians don't seem understand in these sorts of
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]discussions is that God is ultimately responsible for every aspect of the
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]world that He Himself created with the full knowledge of how it would
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]all unfold. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Therefore, yes, He most certainly *is* responsible for the existence of
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]sin, since it was He who willfully created the human vessels out of
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]which He knew sin would manifest. He had it well within His power
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]and foreknowledge to take a different route if He really thought this
would be a problem; the state of the world did [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]not come about as an
unforeseen accident for Him.[/FONT]


Therefore, the notion that mankind 'deserves hell' seems not to take
this into consideration. Truly, if our shortcomings were so offensive
to God that He'd consider endless torment in hell warranted, He could
have spared Himself and His creation that kind of trouble in the first
place by taking a different route in the initial states of creating.


-
 
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blankCrossfire

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[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]And who created Satan? :) [/FONT]

And? Are you meaning to tell me that God made Satan rebel?
Are you suggesting that God makes man sin?

Genesis 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]
What many Christians don't seem understand in these sorts of [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]discussions is that God is ultimately responsible for every aspect of the [/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif]world that He Himself created with the full knowledge of how it would [/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif]all unfold.[/FONT]

What does His full knowledge have to do with sins you and I willfully commit?

When you choose to sin, can you refrain yourself at any point?
If you were in the process of sinning but a cop entered the scene, would you still commit that sin?

If anything, God restrains man from sinning and this is evident all throughout the bible (See the story of Jacob when he ran away from Rachel's father)

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]
Therefore, yes, He most certainly *is* responsible for the existence of
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]sin, since it was He who willfully created the human vessels out of
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]which He knew sin would manifest. He had it well within His power
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]and foreknowledge to take a different route if He really thought this
would be a problem; the state of the world did [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]not come about as an
unforeseen accident for Him.[/FONT]

Ephesians 7:29

See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.

What you're saying contradicts scripture.
You are responsible for the sins you commit.
On judgment day, men and women will be judged according to every thought, word and deed. Everything in darkness will come to light.

Therefore, the notion that mankind 'deserves hell' seems not to take
this into consideration. Truly, if our shortcomings were so offensive
to God that He'd consider endless torment in hell warranted, He could
have spared Himself and His creation that kind of trouble in the first
place by taking a different route in the initial states of creating.

One thing I don't understand is why you would take this stance when the solution, Salvation is in Jesus Christ?

We deserve hell, but God sent his son to reconcile us to himself.

God is holy and righteous.
And yet he saves the worst of men because of His love for us.

The destination of man is hell for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God but God in his richness and mercy demonstrates his love towards us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

You fail to understand the severity of Sin and God's view of Sin and as a result, think it is unjust for a holy and righteous God to send repeat offenders, criminals where they belong for eternity.
 
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