We Don't Deserve Hell

[Rajni]

And? Are you meaning to tell me that God made Satan rebel?
Are you suggesting that God makes man sin?

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]"The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]for the day of evil" (Proverbs 16:4)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Acts 4:27-28 ~ Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against Your holy[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]servant Jesus, whom You anointed. They did what Your power and will[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]had decided[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] beforehand should happen.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Even if one where to surgically remove those passages (and many others like[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]them) from one's bible, or rationalize them away, the question remains as to why[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]would anyone then try to tell me that God didn't, at the very least, know in[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]advance that Satan (and others) would rebel?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Are you suggesting that an omniscient God is being faced with unintended[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]consequences, here? Did He get Himself in over His head or something? [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Genesis 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So why all the fuss?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Why would God, who can see the end from the beginning mind you, claim[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]something is “good” if He already thought that things He would consider not-so-[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]good would sooner or later come if it? Are you saying He lied when He made that[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]statement, or that He didn't know what He was getting Himself into? I sure don't[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]believe that, do you?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What does His full knowledge have to do with sins you and I willfully commit?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Oh wow … really? Do I really need to connect the dots, here? [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]When you choose to sin, can you refrain yourself at any point?
If you were in the process of sinning but a cop entered the scene, would you still commit that sin?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Who was it who created things in such a way that we'd even be *discussing* sin[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]right now?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If anything, God restrains man from sinning and this is evident all throughout the bible (See the story of Jacob when he ran away from Rachel's father)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So since God is capable of restraining sin, why doesn't this happen on a regular[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]basis if He's as uptight about it as many make Him out to be?[/FONT]

Restraining sin would be an act of commission on His part, so by
*refraining from* restraining sin, i.e., *allowing* it to occur, that's an
act of omission on His part. So He's still ultimately responsible for how
both scenarios unfold. To put it in driving terms, it's the same Foot
controlling both the brake *and* the accelerator.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Ephesians 7:29
See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.

What you're saying contradicts scripture.
You are responsible for the sins you commit.
On judgment day, men and women will be judged according to every thought, word and deed. Everything in darkness will come to light. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So what you seem to be saying, here, is that God didn't see it coming.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If a fallible human is responsible for what *he* does, then don't you think that a[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Perfect, All Powerful, All-Knowing God would be responsible for what *He* does? [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]To insist that humans can handle this kind of responsibility but God can't – or[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]shouldn't have to – is not only a double-standard, but places God below man in[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]basic competence. Not exactly the most God-glorifying stance to take, if you ask me.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]One thing I don't understand is why you would take this stance when the solution, Salvation is in Jesus Christ? We deserve hell, but God sent his son to reconcile us to himself. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Probably because the salvation I received in Christ Jesus is what opened my eyes[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]to all this. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Probably because salvation isn't actually from “hell” (at least, in the Dante's[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Inferno sense of the term) but from this idea that God made worthless garbage in[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]need of rescuing from the local trash-heap. It's in this respect that Christianity[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]needs a serious overhaul, imo. [/FONT] A good starting point might be to
remove hell from where it really resides, which would be right between
one's own two ears.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What I don't understand is why people don't trace all this back to the Source. And[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]these are Creationists, too (I would assume), who would, as such, agree that[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]nothing exists except through the Creator God. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]But no, if it's not specifically a debate about Intelligent-Design vs. the Big-Bang[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]theory, all of a sudden the buck stops just shy of an Intelligent Designer out of[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]this apparent fear of what it might reveal. It's like they're trying to get God off[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the hook by pretending He *didn't* create all this, not realizing that one can[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]credit this world, warts and all, to Him without blaming Him for it. There's no[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]blame to be had – He's perfect, and what He made is, indeed, Good![/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You fail to understand the severity of Sin and God's view of Sin and as a result, think it is unjust for a holy and righteous God to send repeat offenders, criminals where they belong for eternity. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]And it would appear that you fail to see that the world as we know it was created[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]by God. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Are you sure you believe that God created the world? [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You claim He's holy and righteous, and I agree 100%, but then you turn around and claim[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]that His own creation deserves hell for being what He made them to be. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What’s with that? Why would a holy and righteous Deity create
anything deserving of hell?

PS: If the mods want to move this to the Unorthodox Discussion
area, that's totally understandable. That's probably where this should
be filed, anyway.
[/FONT]
-

 

[Armistead14]

I agree, if God didn't see it coming, seems he had to come up with a plan B. If he didn't see that coming, then how can heaven ever be secure?

 

[stevenfrancis]

Why create a species that is flawed, then punish us for being flawed as if it is our fault? He condemns us for acting in the way that he created us. the bible speaks as if we don't deserve forgiveness, but we really do. We didn't ask to be created and did not ask for the opportunity of hell. I much rather have no free will and live in peace, then to have hell. It's especially a joke since most of His creation ends up in Hell anyways.

I would hardly say that most of His creation ends up in Hell. That's a very cynical and nihilistic philosophy to hold. We are rational beings, with free will and choice. It wouldn't be fair to those who WANT to live a life of sin, to make them spend eternity in the presence of the light of God. There are some who prefer the darkness. Who, while KNOWING, and having carefully examined the truth of God, STILL choose, by preference to live in darkness and sin, and would not be in Heaven, if they were in Heaven. They would be miserable. It would BE hell. I've never done a research project, but my guess is that this would represent a very small portion of the people ever born. But even those few, get their way out of God's love.

Why make it so difficult to follow God? What is the purpose of us choosing him? Is it a nice ego boost?

It's not really difficult at all. Most of us will fall into sin on occasion, due to our attraction to it, when we think of it as "good". This happens the most in our teens - early 30's. But God, knowing this, offers us His grace in the living out of our lives through the sacraments. We have communion with God, the Angels and Saints in the Mass, and the Holy Eucharist. His grace is sufficient for us. When we still fall, we have a method of reconciliation with God, and access to His unfathomable forgiveness and mercy. The more we practice our faith, the easier it is to open our hearts to His love. I know for me personally, I don't even recognize my own life and self from before by conversion to Christ. I am a new creation. We can all have this by giving ourselves over to Christ, and just start putting one foot in front of the other. Doing the next right thing, one day at a time. Making good choices. It's possible. I was, let's just say, on the wrong track for most of my life. Now I live in the Lord. It wasn't a flash of lightening. (though for some it really is that quick). It was just a little. Day by day. I applied the old WWJD principle when confronted with a moral or ethical decision instead of just "going for it". Soon.....I didn't WANT to displease God. I felt BETTER when I didn't. This leads me to believe that when I don't sin, I actually fell better than when I do. This confirmed for me that goodness is the default human condition. We actually fight AGAINST goodness, and our default nature for various chunks of our lives (different times and paths for all). Augustine said, "our hearts are restless until we rest in thee". Jesus says, His yoke is easy, and His burden is light. But He also doesn't promise a rose garden until temporal death, telling us that those who would follow Him must pick put their crosses daily.

Thank you so much for creating me just so that I can turn to you and make a choice of following you. So glad my life is so purposeful.

Here again.............if you didn't have that choice, then there is no love. We need choice in order to choose goodness, and to practice love. We need suffering to know what bliss is. We need contrast to help us understand what is good and what is evil.

I do not mean be so harsh with these statements, but it really does sound a bit ridiculous

I don't know if you study philosophy, but this sounds very Neitchzean. The alternatives are bleak. This philosophy is referred to as nihilism, and it's deeply awful, even on a secular humanist level. It is what leads to despair, which leads to alcoholism, drug addiction, suicide, and moral abandon. And if those are the things we end up practicing, then those end up as our habits, and the primary influence governing our choices, which can lead to choosing hell. It's bad philosophy, and one you have the choice to chuck in the waste can, and replace with some nice Thomas Aquinas. But mostly, philosophers aside, try to trust Jesus Christ. He is, after all, the Way, the Truth and Life. As the truth, He will not lie to you about reality. As the way, He provides a path which leads to eternal bliss, and as the life, He provides a light in the darkness of death. Life everlasting in beauty and glory.

Anyway,

Peace to you, and may you find through prayer, the answers you seek to these questions. For me, the answer to all questions I had, turned out to be Jesus Christ. I tried self will, Scientology, Castaneda, Buddhism, New Age etc. All paths for me seemed empty, and left me feeling like you feel in your post above. I truly was restless, until I rested in Him. For me, it started with a good long, prayerful reading of the Gospels, and particularly (for me), the Gospel according to John. I learned about Eucharist from Scott Hahn (The Lamb's Supper, and now....Consuming the Word). I found Fulton Sheen to be an excellent guide through the Gospels (The Life of Christ), and Augustine to be the antidote to paganism and barbarism with "Confessions" and "City of God". I found the theologian of all theologians in St. Thomas Aquinas, and a contemporary disciple of his named "Peter Kreeft" (all you get your hands on). St. Pauls epistles. The prophets. The psalms. There is so much available which is so good for our minds and souls. That our forebears in ancient times didn't even have available to them. But without any of it, if you just ask Jesus to come into your life. If you truly invite Him, He will come to you.

God bless,

 

[StephanieSomer]

Yes but for us to choose, we are given choice.. For choice to be possible there must be options. Therefore God created two options. It isn't free will without the option to choose wrong.

Very true. But, as you have pointed out, "...God created two options." Whereas we do have the option to choose wrong, we also have the option to choose right. We all have refused that option. "As it is written:“There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” That is the whole point of biblical history, to demonstrate that although we all DO have a choice, we ALL have made the wrong choice. So, yes, we DO deserve hell. All of us, sinner AND saint. Do we think we are better than they? Not in God's economy we aren't. It is ONLY IN Christ that we have promise of anything but what we deserve. None of this has taken God by surprise. It was all in His plan to show His glory and grace in providing salvation. Even at the end of the 6th day when he declared it as "very good", He knew what was coming. The reason we have such a problem understanding WHY he said it was very good even as He knew what was coming is because there is a wide expanse of future still to come that we cannot see that He has already seen. Be careful not to try to understand God's declarations from merely our perspective. Rather, recognize that even though we cannot see from His perspective, we CAN take comfort and courage in what He does say to us from His perspective. In other words, if HE says it is very good, we can be certain that although it may not appear so to US atm, it really and actually IS very good and will become apparent to us in time. HIS time.

 

[StephanieSomer]

What is so bad about not have any free will?

Because love is an act of the will. God created us to have a loving relationship with us. Not that He needs it. He wants it. It's pleasant, is it not? Without free will, we would be incapable of love.

 

[blankCrossfire]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]"The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]for the day of evil" (Proverbs 16:4)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Acts 4:27-28 ~ Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against Your holy[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]servant Jesus, whom You anointed. They did what Your power and will[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]had decided[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] beforehand should happen.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Even if one where to surgically remove those passages (and many others like[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]them) from one's bible, or rationalize them away, the question remains as to why[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]would anyone then try to tell me that God didn't, at the very least, know in[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]advance that Satan (and others) would rebel?[/FONT]

The verses you posted do not deny the fact that God made man upright, good, so the scriptures still stand.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

Are you suggesting that an omniscient God is being faced with unintended

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] consequences, here? Did He get Himself in over His head or something?[/FONT]

Man was given free will. Man was given the free will to obey or rebel.
Man was tempted in the garden, convinced that he could become God, just as Satan so desired and fell as a result. God is omniscient.

Man choosing to rebel has nothing to do with God for God gave man the command not to eat from that tree. Adam & Eve were fully responsible for their sin. You are responsible for yours. 100%.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

Why would God, who can see the end from the beginning mind you, claim

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] something is “good” if He already thought that things He would consider not-so-[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]good would sooner or later come if it? Are you saying He lied when He made that[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]statement, or that He didn't know what He was getting Himself into? I sure don't[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]believe that, do you?[/FONT]

God made man with the freedom to obey and the freedom to rebel. Man had free will to obey God or disobey God. Man was created good, upright (Genesis 1:31 / Ephesians 7:29). Scripture makes this clear. If you think otherwise, your opinion must bend the knee to God's authoritative word.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

Oh wow … really? Do I really need to connect the dots, here?

[/FONT]

Please do, you'll be surprised.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

Who was it who created things in such a way that we'd even be *discussing* sin

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] right now?[/FONT]

You can blame Adam. God commanded Adam to refrain from eating the forbidden fruit. Your angst towards God is unwarranted.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

So since God is capable of restraining sin, why doesn't this happen on a regular

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] basis if He's as uptight about it as many make Him out to be?[/FONT]

God had to restrain men from sinning to show just how wicked man is. We have laws set in place to curb sin. Laws are now being undermined and what was once forbidden is now glorified. It doesn't happen on a regular basis because scripture is being fulfilled (2 Timothy 3 / etc).

Restraining sin would be an act of commission on His part, so by
*refraining from* restraining sin, i.e., *allowing* it to occur, that's an
act of omission on His part. So He's still ultimately responsible for how
both scenarios unfold. To put it in driving terms, it's the same Foot
controlling both the brake *and* the accelerator.

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

I've only begun to realize that nothing you're saying here is backed by scripture. Can you show me in the bible where God says that He is responsible for sin?

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

So what you seem to be saying, here, is that God didn't see it coming.

[/FONT]

God is omniscient, so no.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

If a fallible human is responsible for what *he* does, then don't you think that a

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Perfect, All Powerful, All-Knowing God would be responsible for what *He* does?[/FONT]

If Adam was a robot, you might be on to something.
Adam had free will. Adam made the conscious decision to rebel.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

To insist that humans can handle this kind of responsibility but God can't – or

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] shouldn't have to – is not only a double-standard, but places God below man in[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]basic competence. Not exactly the most God-glorifying stance to take, if you ask me.[/FONT]

So you agree that man is incapable of obeying God's law?
This is why everyone is condemned before God. Rightly so if I might add.
Man is guilty before God.
God's standard is holiness. Man has fallen short. Man is responsible for falling short because of the decision that man made while even being aware of the consequences.

Man is without excuse.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

Probably because salvation isn't actually from “hell” (at least, in the Dante's

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Inferno sense of the term) but from this idea that God made worthless garbage[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

Man was created good though (Genesis 1:31)
Do you deny original sin or something?

[/FONT]

A good starting point might be to
remove hell from where it really resides, which would be right between
one's own two ears.

If man wants nothing to do with God, despises God and enjoys his sin more than Christ and ultimately dies in his sins, where will this man go?

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

Are you sure you believe that God created the world?

[/FONT]

]

Do you believe the bible is the authoritative word of God? (God breathed 2 Tim. 3:16)

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

You claim He's holy and righteous, and I agree 100%, but then you turn around and claim

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] that His own creation deserves hell for being what He made them to be. [/FONT]

You say you agree but accuse God of sin. God is Light and in Him there is no darkness (1 John 1:5)

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

What’s with that? Why would a holy and righteous Deity create
anything deserving of hell?

The fall happened.
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Law-breakers must be punished. God is just also is He not?[/FONT]

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Actually, we all deserve Hell. No one has ever lived up to God's standard. It is only through God's grace that anyone doesn't end up - down - in Hell.

 

[Rajni]

The verses you posted do not deny the fact that God made man upright, good, so the scriptures still stand.

They weren't intended to deny the fact that God made man upright and
good, I've said as much myself in my post. They were in response to
your previous question as to whether God made Satan rebel and
makes man sin.

My question still stands as to why you would try to tell me that God did
not, at the very least, know in advance that Satan (and others) would
rebel. You haven't answered that one yet.

Man was tempted in the garden, convinced that he could become God, just as Satan so desired and fell as a result. God is omniscient.

How could a perfect and upright creation fall? You said (and I agree)
that God made man good. How can good sin?

And yes, I agree, God is omniscient.

Man choosing to rebel has nothing to do with God for God gave man the command not to eat from that tree. Adam & Eve were fully responsible for their sin. You are responsible for yours. 100%.

Man choosing to rebel has everything to do with God, because, as you
just said, *God* was the one who gave man the free will to obey or
rebel.

If a parent hands a toddler a sharp knife to do with as he chooses, and
the child hurts himself with it, yes, the child inflicted the pain on
himself, but the parent is ultimately responsible for having handed the
child the knife in the first place, knowing that this would happen.

God made man with the freedom to obey and the freedom to rebel. Man had free will to obey God or disobey God. Man was created good, upright (Genesis 1:31 / Ephesians 7:29). Scripture makes this clear. If you think otherwise, your opinion must bend the knee to God's authoritative word.

That's just my point. I'm agreeing that God made man good and
upright. And this is what makes the standard mantra that we are
worthless and worthy of eternal hell so contradictory.

Please do, you'll be surprised.

I meant do I need to connect them for *you*, as you seem to be
struggling with what I would think would be the obvious implications of
divine foreknowledge.

You can blame Adam. God commanded Adam to refrain from eating the forbidden fruit.

And whose idea was Adam?

Didn't God already know that Adam would eat of the fruit anyway when
He commanded him not to?

Your angst towards God is unwarranted.

My angst isn't directed towards God, as I've already made clear.

God had to restrain men from sinning to show just how wicked man is.

What happened to man being good and upright?

I've only begun to realize that nothing you're saying here is backed by scripture. Can you show me in the bible where God says that He is responsible for sin?

Can you show me in Scripture where it says we must back everything
we say with Scripture?

Nevertheless, where simple logic doesn't suffice, the following should
help (and again, this is not to blame God, but simply to show that
He's in the driver's seat).

He turned their heart to hate His people, to plot against His
servants. (Psalm 105:25)

All abiding on the earth are reckoned as naught: According
to His will is He doing...with those abiding on the earth.
(Daniel 4:35)
​

Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of
him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful. (Romans 9:16)

Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet
whom He will, He is hardening. (Romans 9:18)

Has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same
kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for
dishonor? (Romans 9:21)

The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his
steps (Proverbs 16:9)

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the
Lord (Proverbs 16:33)

Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the
Lord will be established (Proverbs 19:21)

Man's steps are ordained by the Lord (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the
LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes. (Proverbs 21:1)

"For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to
work for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"all things through Him did happen, and without Him
happened not even one thing that hath happened." (John
1:3)

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in
Me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from Me you
can do nothing." (John 15:5)

"I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not
for man to direct his steps." (Jeremiah 10:23)

"But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that
it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done
through God." (John 3:21)

"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of
them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your
Father." (Matthew 10:29)

"In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined
according to the plan of Him who works out everything
in conformity with the purpose of His will," (Ephesians
1:11)

"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and
honor and power, for You created all things, and by Your
will they were created and have their being." (Revelation
4:11)

"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the
Father is in Me? The words I say to you are not just My
own. Rather, it is the Father, living in Me, who is doing
His work." (John 14:10)

"Jesus gave them this answer: 'I tell you the truth, the Son
can do nothing by Himself; He can do only what He sees His
Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son
also does.'" (John 5:19)

There are different kinds of working, but the same God
works all of them in all men. (1 Corinthians 12:6)

From one man He made every nation of men, that they
should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined the
times set for them and the exact places where they should
live. (Acts 17:26)

For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but
men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy
Spirit. (2 Peter 1:21)

For I have come down from heaven not to do My will but to
do the will of Him who sent Me. (John 6:38)

Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the
Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire
against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed. They
did what Your power and will had decided beforehand
should happen. (Acts 4:27-28)

And He made known to us the mystery of His will
according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in
Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have
reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and
on earth together under one head, even Christ. (Ephesians
1:9-10)

"Who has withstood His intention?" (Rom. 9:19)

"For the Lord of Hosts has planned it, who can frustrate
it?" (Is. 14:27)

"God gives them (Israel) a spirit of stupor" (Rom. 11:8)

"The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even
the wicked for the day of evil" (Pv. 16:4)

"God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He
should be merciful to all" (Rom. 11:32)

"We cannot arrange our case because of darkness" (Job
37:19)

"Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with
it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it?"
(Is. 10:15)

You will be given grass...until you recognize that the Most
High is ruler over the realm of mankind" (Dan. 4:32)

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and
create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.

Lamentations 3:38 – "Is it not from the mouth of the Most
High That
both good and ill go forth?"

Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech
and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt
treacherously with Abimelech:

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul,
and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now,
an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which
are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player
on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit
from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and
thou shalt be well.

1Sa 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from
God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played
with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the
evil spirit departed from him.

1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil
spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the
midst of the house:

1Sa 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul,
as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and
David played with his hand.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying
spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD
hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a
lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the
LORD hath spoken evil against thee.


(continued in next post)
​

 

[Rajni]

Continued from my previous post.

If Adam was a robot, you might be on to something.
Adam had free will. Adam made the conscious decision to rebel.

​

Who was responsible for giving Adam free will (a concept that the
above verses call into question, by the way), fully knowing, in His
Omniscience, what Adam would wind up doing with it?

So you agree that man is incapable of obeying God's law?
This is why everyone is condemned before God. Rightly so if I might add.
Man is guilty before God.
God's standard is holiness. Man has fallen short. Man is responsible for falling short because of the decision that man made while even being aware of the consequences.
Man is without excuse.

​

You completely missed my point.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If a fallible human is responsible for what *he* does, then don't you
think that a [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Perfect, All Powerful, All-Knowing God would be
responsible for what *He* does?
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]A simple yes or no will suffice. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Man was created good though (Genesis 1:31)
Do you deny original sin or something?[/FONT]

​

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]See -- there it is, right there. The disconnect. In the same breath you
agree that man was created good, and then follow it up with 'original
sin'. So, like, which is it? Is man good, or not?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] If man wants nothing to do with God, despises God and enjoys his sin more than Christ and ultimately dies in his sins, where will this man go? [/FONT]

​

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]It's the sick who need the physician, yes? So he will go to be healed, if
such is necessary. God is the Savior of *all* men, "especially" (not
"exclusively") of believers. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif](1 Timothy 2:4) For God to create man
knowing man would mess up and then send him to hell for it is like a
woman conceiving a child while already planning ahead of time to
abort her. If that's all He's going to do with someone, why bother
bringing them into the world at all to start with?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Do you believe the bible is the authoritative word of God? (God breathed 2 Tim. 3:16)[/FONT]

​

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You dodged my question: Are you *sure* you believe that God created
the world?
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]*Everything* is God-breathed, that's kind of been my point from
square one. He's the Creator, although you don't seem to think so.
So again, please clarify: do *you* believe that God created the world
as we know it? [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] You say you agree but accuse God of sin. God is Light and in Him there is no darkness (1 John 1:5)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]And I agree, though I don't accuse Him of anything. You're reading
accusation into it because this whole exercise is causing you to think
about this in a way that they probably don't cover in the standard bible
study. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Since God is Light and in Him there is no darkness, why all the
hand-wringing among the majority of Christians about evil and sin and
pitching God's "good and upright" creations into hell for eternity? [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Either God is Good and Christians are wrong about sin, or God isn't so
good and Christians are right about sin.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] The fall happened.[/FONT]

​

How can "good and upright" fall?

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Law-breakers must be punished. God is just also is He not?[/FONT]

​

He sure is. So exactly what would be just about Him creating someone
that He knew in advance He'd be pitching into hell in the end anyway?




-

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Whats so hard to understand that God cannot ever be wrong in what He does? That is what makes Him God. He is always right no matter what. Your idea of right is just confused because of that sin nature you were born with perverts your idea of fairness and justice. Submit to the will of of the Holy Spirit already and be thankful for your salvation of a loving graceful God.

Don't like the idea of your friends and family suffering in hell? Why aren't you witnessing to them in hope of them changing their mind? Don't forget about the great commission. That is a real christian duty that all christians are responsible for and we all fail to really work to do.

 

[blankCrossfire]

My question still stands as to why you would try to tell me that God did
not, at the very least, know in advance that Satan (and others) would
rebel. You haven't answered that one yet.

God can know full well that Adam will go out of his way to take an apple even having forbid him from taking that apple. That does not excuse the fact that he knew full well the consequences of disobeying His command. I did not tell him to go and steal the apple, in fact He told him the opposite!

For Adam or anyone to defend such such a heinous act is absurd wouldn't you agree? Adam blamed his wife. Adam could not shift the blame to God as you are doing for even he knew better than to do something like that...

How could a perfect and upright creation fall? You said (and I agree) that God made man good. How can good sin?

Man is subject to God. Made good, upright.
Man was deceived into thinking this no longer had to be the case.
Man as a result, fell.

You are looking at this a bit too simplistically.
You are ignoring the fact that man had free will to obey or rebel and in your responses later in your post, is a major flaw as a result of this kind of thinking.

If a parent hands a toddler a sharp knife to do with as he chooses, and
the child hurts himself with it, yes, the child inflicted the pain on
himself, but the parent is ultimately responsible for having handed the
child the knife in the first place, knowing that this would happen.

The scenario you've posed is in no way similar to the events that happened in the garden. No matter how you spin it, Adam (man) made the conscious decision to rebel just as you and I made/make conscious decisions to sin.

I meant do I need to connect them for *you*, as you seem to be
struggling with what I would think would be the obvious implications of
divine foreknowledge.

Connecting the dots would only prove one of 2 things.
Either God is a liar or you are.

Can you show me in Scripture where it says we must back everything
we say with Scripture?

Nevertheless, where simple logic doesn't suffice, the following should
help (and again, this is not to blame God, but simply to show that
He's in the driver's seat).

Are these verses in relation to fallen man or before man fell?
What is the context of these verses?

If a fallible human is responsible for what *he* does, then don't you
think that a Perfect,All Powerful, All-Knowing God would be responsible for what *He* does?

If I kill someone, can I say God made me do it?
Please read Romans 9. You quoted Romans 9 in that slew of texts, you shouldn't be asking this question since Romans 9 addresses this very question...

It's the sick who need the physician, yes? So he will go to be healed, if such is necessary. God is the Savior of *all* men, "especially" (not "exclusively") of believers.1 Timothy 2:4) For God to create man knowing man would mess up and then send him to hell for it is like a woman conceiving a child while already planning ahead of time to
abort her. If that's all He's going to do with someone, why bother
bringing them into the world at all to start with?

This is the problem with your theology.
You say that God will save people who have not even accepted Christ.
Your theology isn't even biblical.
How can you say that someone who dies in their sin rejecting Christ even to his last breath will be saved?

You put absolutely no accountability on man.
You shift all of the blame to God and in doing so, come to the conclusion that God must save all men.

The truth of the matter is, God is not obligated to save anyone.
After all, all have sinned and the wages of sin is death.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die.

Repentance is non-existent from all that I've seen you post.
After all, what does man have to repent of?
God will restore what went bad. After all, he must or what does that make him, right?

Where does that leave man?
What is man accountable of?

 

[Rajni]

Man is subject to God. Made good, upright.
Man was deceived into thinking this no longer had to be the case.
Man as a result, fell.

The idea that perfect people can fall puts the future of
heaven on very precarious footing. Because, if perfection
can fail, then not even heaven is secure. The whole thing
could happen again in the future.

Besides that, how perfect is a free will that chooses to do wrong?

You are looking at this a bit too simplistically.
You are ignoring the fact that man had free will to obey or rebel and in your responses later in your post, is a major flaw as a result of this kind of thinking.

I think I've already shown you what scripture has to say
about just how 'free' human wills are.

The scenario you've posed is in no way similar to the events that happened in the garden. No matter how you spin it, Adam (man) made the conscious decision to rebel just as you and I made/make conscious decisions to sin.

It's very similar. God gave Adam a will that, apparently,
Adam didn't have the maturity to handle. Injury followed.

Connecting the dots would only prove one of 2 things.
Either God is a liar or you are.

In what way? Are you saying it's a lie that God knew
beforehand how things would go down in the Garden?

Are these verses in relation to fallen man or before man fell?
What is the context of these verses?

The context of the verses is that God is God, to put it
simply. As the saying goes, "God is in control"!

If I kill someone, can I say God made me do it?
Please read Romans 9. You quoted Romans 9 in that slew of texts, you shouldn't be asking this question since Romans 9 addresses this very question...

I'm asking you if God is responsible for what He does
(this is a yes/no question, remember) and you don't seem
to like where that's going, even after I specified—right
there in that very question—that man is responsible for
what he does.

You say that God will save people who have not even accepted Christ.
Your theology isn't even biblical.

I just showed you scripture that says that very thing.

How can you say that someone who dies in their sin rejecting Christ even to his last breath will be saved?

Through Scripture, as I've just demonstrated (though I
realize that no two Christians necessarily view the
scriptures in the exact same way. Thank God for
30,000+ denominations, eh?).

You put absolutely no accountability on man.

Not exactly. Man can and should still be held
accountable for the crimes he commits, and misconduct
does carry it's own consequences built right in.

My issue is with the sadistic idea that *finite* wrongdoing
must receive *infinite* punishment. It glorifies the sin
by making it look like not even God Himself can totally
eradicate it, ever. It also diminishes all that Jesus went
through to save mankind from sin. To think that He went
through all that and won't get, in return, every last scrap
of what He paid for is rather pessimistic, not to mention
that it demonstrates little faith in the efficacy of Christ's
sacrifice.

The truth of the matter is, God is not obligated to save anyone.

He's also not obligated to send anyone to hell, either, a
solution that would be far beneath Him anyway (pardon
the pun ).

After all, all have sinned and the wages of sin is death.

Hmmm... I could have sworn Jesus took that on Himself
at the cross.

Besides, if by 'death' you mean 'an eternity in hell', then
the death Jesus died in our place would have had to have
been 'an eternity in hell'. But Scripture has Him rising
again in 3 days. So death can't mean 'an eternity in hell'.

Repentance is non-existent from all that I've seen you post.

That would depend on what you mean by the word.
I've done quite a bit of repenting, just not in the ways that would
satisfy you personally. But repentance was never about satisfying
the other guy, right?

After all, what does man have to repent of?
God will restore what went bad. After all, he must or what does that make him, right?

You mean "Behold, I make *all things* new"?

Where does that leave man?
What is man accountable of?

One can still have accountability without sadism.

Of course, if I accept the partialist soteriology of
mainstream Christianity and there really is an eternal hell,
and if perfect, upright beings can, indeed, fall, then who
knows how long heaven will really last? Hell might well
wind up with everyone, sooner or later.

Thank God for the scriptures that suggest otherwise.

 

[christ disciple]

I agree, if God didn't see it coming, seems he had to come up with a plan B. If he didn't see that coming, then how can heaven ever be secure?

Better yet, if there had to be a plan "B" then God would not be God would He?

There is no plan "B" if you are Omniscient, is there?

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I think that our understanding on what omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence is... limits our understanding of God's reasoning.

People always ask me these questions:

God knows everything God can do anything. What was stopping God from just forgiving Adam right then and there for Adam's transgression towards God? Why does He need to sacrifice Himself to Himself to fix the problem?

I still think long and hard to figure out a good answer. There is something we're missing in the Bible that explains God's nature. Quite frankly, its more of a human problem of our limited nature than God's problem. or maybe I am missing something in my neglect of reading the OT until recently.

 

[blankCrossfire]

The idea that perfect people can fall puts the future of
heaven on very precarious footing. Because, if perfection
can fail, then not even heaven is secure. The whole thing
could happen again in the future.

Besides that, how perfect is a free will that chooses to do wrong?

You've quoted a slew of texts but ask questions that are already answered in the texts you've provided. I'm starting to believe you haven't even read the texts you posted or the context.

Romans 8
This idea of heaven not being secure is another rabbit trail you've gone down as a result of your unorthodox theology.

It's very similar. God gave Adam a will that, apparently,
Adam didn't have the maturity to handle. Injury followed.

Once again, you continue to throw the blame of man fully towards God.

I'm asking you if God is responsible for what He does
(this is a yes/no question, remember) and you don't seem
to like where that's going, even after I specified—right
there in that very question—that man is responsible for
what he does.

Romans 9, scripture you've quoted answers your question. My answer is the same. Have you read Romans 9?

Not exactly. Man can and should still be held
accountable for the crimes he commits, and misconduct
does carry it's own consequences built right in.

As you've demonstrated throughout your posts, man is not accountable because man does not get what he deserves.

You refuse to accept what the bible says regarding men who sin and die in their sins. I don't think you know what accountable means when you reject hell and God's abhorrent view of sin.

My issue is with the sadistic idea that *finite* wrongdoing
must receive *infinite* punishment. It glorifies the sin
by making it look like not even God Himself can totally
eradicate it, ever. It also diminishes all that Jesus went
through to save mankind from sin. To think that He went
through all that and won't get, in return, every last scrap
of what He paid for is rather pessimistic, not to mention
that it demonstrates little faith in the efficacy of Christ's
sacrifice.

Romans 1
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

I would encourage you to read the book of Romans.
When God gives up men to the desires of their sin, because they reject the truth, what is the end result?

If God will save all men as you propose, why are many on the broad road that leads to destruction? You say there is one road. The bible says there's two. Who's right? You or God?

He's also not obligated to send anyone to hell, either, a
solution that would be far beneath Him anyway (pardon
the pun ).

You said God is just. A just God will punish law breakers.
I provided scripture that proves that and scripture that demonstrates man's sinfulness.

But as I mentioned earlier, you put no accountability upon man so the just thing to do is to redeem everyone. We both know that atheists do not believe in Jesus Christ. To say that people who willfully reject the gospel and will be saved is to reject Jesus Christ's own words. (John 3:16-18)

Hmmm... I could have sworn Jesus took that on Himself
at the cross.

According to you, man does not even have to believe in God.
It's God's fault, God will pick up the pieces. This kind of rationalization is absurd when placed next to God's word.

Besides, if by 'death' you mean 'an eternity in hell', then
the death Jesus died in our place would have had to have
been 'an eternity in hell'. But Scripture has Him rising
again in 3 days. So death can't mean 'an eternity in hell'.

You don't even subscribe to biblical definitions.
You've concocted your own. It's evident that your opinion is greater than God's word.

You mean "Behold, I make *all things* new"?

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt

Of course, if I accept the partialist soteriology of
mainstream Christianity and there really is an eternal hell,
and if perfect, upright beings can, indeed, fall, then who
knows how long heaven will really last? Hell might well
wind up with everyone, sooner or later.

John 10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish

Once again, either Jesus Christ is a liar, or you are.
Who's lying?
When you come to such conclusions, you put Jesus Christ's own affirmations on trial. You make Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, someone who cannot be trusted.

Your reasoning contradicts scripture.
The conclusions you've come up with question God's authoritative word.
Selective reading has shipwrecked the faith of many when they don't bend their knee to the full account of God's word. I would encourage you to read all of John 10 to get the full context.

1 John 3:8-10
He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

You can continue to reject the clear distinctions between God's children (Sheep) and those who are not of God, children of the devil (Goats). Doing so will breed more and more error, like rejecting the doctrine of hell, sin, penalty of sin, even the gospel.

Repentance and Faith in Christ is not even necessary in the gospel you preach.
You preach a false gospel.

 

[Rajni]

Blank, I'm seriously starting to wonder if there's a language-barrier
thing going on here, as you don't seem to understand the most basic
aspects of what I'm trying to convey to you.

There's nothing more I can say to you that I haven't said already, and
either English is not your first language, or you're being deliberately
evasive.

It's apparent that you desperately need there to be a hell for those you
don't like. I get that.

Therefore, "be it unto *you* according to *your* faith."

-

 

[christ disciple]

I think that our understanding on what omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence is... limits our understanding of God's reasoning.

People always ask me these questions:

God knows everything God can do anything. What was stopping God from just forgiving Adam right then and there for Adam's transgression towards God? Why does He need to sacrifice Himself to Himself to fix the problem?

I still think long and hard to figure out a good answer. There is something we're missing in the Bible that explains God's nature. Quite frankly, its more of a human problem of our limited nature than God's problem. or maybe I am missing something in my neglect of reading the OT until recently.

There are two things God cannot do.

1) God cannot lie.

2) God cannot change.

As for God's reasoning in doing it the way He did. He wanted to display His Glory by displaying Himself and His nature.

He could have done as you suggested, but then how would we know the extent of His Love. He wants to display Himself and His Glory, does He not?

 

[Radagast]

Why create a species that is flawed, then punish us for being flawed as if it is our fault?

How is the whole "telling God He's doing it wrong" thing working for you?

And why are you posting in a forum marked "orthodox Christians only"?

 

[Radagast]

It's apparent that you desperately need there to be a hell for those you don't like.

Possibly his opinion is based on what he reads in the Bible.

And why do you have a Catholic icon when you deny basic Catholic teachings?

 

[Rajni]

Possibly his opinion is based on what he reads in the Bible.

More accurately, his opinion is based on his preferred interpretation of
what he reads in the bible.

And why do you have a Catholic icon when you deny basic Catholic teachings?

Because I'm a Catholic by baptism. It would be naive to think that
every Catholic out there agrees with every single thing taught therein.
We're Catholics, not robots.

In the same way, not everyone with a Christian icon actually believes
that God is God. For some strange reason. They're the ones I usually
end up disagreeing with.

Anyway... given what popes have had to say about the subject at hand,
what part of "basic Catholic teaching" have I been denying in this
thread?

“Christ, Redeemer of man, now for ever “clad in a robe dipped in
blood” (Apoc, 19,13), the everlasting, invincible guarantee of
universal salvation.” ~ Pope John Paul II (and there's
more where that came from)

“For the whole of mankind was freed from the slavery of sin by the
shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ as their ransom, and there is no
one who is excluded from the benefit of this Redemption …” ~ Pope
Benedict XV, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum, #1, 1914.
​

-