We are not saved by works?

ExTiff said:

As St Paul says. See my signature.

Never said God dismisses sin. I said God is no longer holding their sins against them, (the world, that is).

You speak as if nothing of importance happened at the cross and there is something left for us to do, before God will stop 'holding our sins against us'.

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If he is not holding their sins against them, why do they die if the wages of sin is death?

Dave L said:

If you consider people are born spiritually dead and cannot believe in the true Christ, but only in a false Christ or some other religious figure, then it makes sense that you must first be born again before you can discern and believe in the true Christ of the bible.

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I don't believe the new birth begins until after a person actually repents (or seeks forgiveness) with the Lord. I believe they are spiritually awakened or spiritually drawn whereby the free will choice is set before them. Without this spiritual awakening or drawing, they cannot come to God. God draws, and then it is up to the individual to then choose what they want to do. God does not force salvation upon people (nor does He regenerate people based upon know what they will do after they are regenerated).

Why?

Just look at all the free will statements in regards to us choosing God in the Bible (See the verses in Post #197 to check them out).

Dave L said:

The will is not free from birth. But only after the New Birth.

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Verses please.

Jason0047 said:

Verses please.

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“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved” (Ephesians 2:1–5)

Jason0047 said:

I don't believe the new birth begins until after a person actually repents (or seeks forgiveness) with the Lord. I believe they are spiritually awakened or spiritually drawn whereby the free will choice is set before them. Without this spiritual awakening or drawing, they cannot come to God. God draws, and then it is up to the individual to then choose what they want to do. God does not force salvation upon people (nor does He regenerate people based upon know what they will do after they are regenerated).

Why?

Just look at all the free will statements in regards to us choosing God in the Bible (See the verses in Post #197 to check them out).

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Unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God enough to repent.

Dave L said:

Unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God enough to repent.

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We don't have to see the Kingdom of God in order to repent. Nowhere does the Bible say so. We only have to see our own sins and our need for a Savior. Then after we believe and repent, we are born-again, and after this we can see the Kingdom after God opens our eyes to it. We could possibly see the Kingdom in others before we are saved, as they are Jesus to us, but we don't have to before we are saved.

This is a great topic. It’s important, very much so, and something that I’ve been learning about recently.

I would encourage you all to look at Romans. Really look at it; read it over and over. Chapter six is my main focus right now.

Starting at verse six: “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him....v.11: likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord....v.14:...For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law but under grace.”

Then skipping to verses sixteen-eighteen (read the whole chapter to get it all!!!) “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are...whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”

This is huge! This is bigger than anything we can humanly grasp. We are no longer slaves to sin—we are slaves to righteousness. This is a controversial thought because NO ONE CAN SEE THEMSELVES AS ANYTHING BUT SLAVES TO SIN. But God says no! Once He has saved us we are no longer slaves to sin. We’re not sinners anymore. We’re righteous and redeemed.

Yes, the wages of sin is death (verse 23). But you have been saved by the grace of God and you are no longer a sinner. You are righteous in His eyes because of what Christ did for you.

You are not required to keep the law, either.

ALARM BELLS

This makes a lot of people nervous. But read Romans 8!

“For there is now no condemnation to them which are in Christ, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could NOT do, in that (because) it was weak through the flesh, GOD sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, CONDEMNED SIN in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

To say that you still need to keep the law to be saved or to go to heaven, or that you’ll lose your salvation if you don’t, is seriously undermining what JESUS CHRIST did on the cross. If you have to keep the law to go to heaven, you are saying that Christ left something undone when He died on the cross. That His sacrifice wasn’t enough.

“But,” you say, “if we don’t have to keep the law, then people will take this grace thing to the extreme! They’ll say it doesn’t matter what they do since God made them righteous and they can’t sin!”

If you are in Christ, saved by His blood, a Child of the Most High God, a sinless, spotless heir to the Kingdom, you will be overwhelmed with the AMAZING GRACE and the gift you have received. You will DESIRE to serve Him. You will live for Him. The law is cast away for believers because Christ fulfilled it, yes!!! And we love Him for that. That will show in the way we live.

Dave L said:

Unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God enough to repent.

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In John 3:3, Jesus is referring to the entrance into God's physical Kingdom one day. Jesus is referring to how in order to one day see or enter God's Kingdom physically one day, we have to be born again spiritually. Jesus is not referring to the drawing of God.

Jesus did not say:


Source Used:
Examining Calvinism
(Note: This does not mean I believe everything the author is saying in the rest of his article; I am merely agreeing with the last paragraph I quoted here).

Dave L said:

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved” (Ephesians 2:1–5)

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Nowhere does this passage say that God forces salvation (beyond their free will choice) upon the individual here. It does not say that. It merely says our old nature was disobedient, and we were children of wrath and then it skips to talking about how God was rich in his mercy toward us and then He quickened us. Other things can take place in-between:

(a) Being a child of wrath and,
(b) Being quickened.

Why would we think that way? Well, there are many other verses I showed to you before that talks about how God offers us a free will choice in accepting Him.

@Jason0047

But if you truly are appealing to Morality entirely, you cannot say that we can be disobedient and sin while under God's grace with us being saved, either. For that is the only alternative position of saying that we are not saved by obedience (after being saved by God's grace). The only other position of not being saved by obedience (involving God's saving grace) is being saved by God's grace in disobedience or sin.

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We can and do, sin while under God's grace. 1 Jn.1:10; Rom.7:21-25.

We are all sinners and remain so in reality. It is only in God's eyes that we are no longer treated as such, because we are in Christ.

You are confusing Justification, (The judicial pronouncement by God that our sins are no longer held against us), with Sanctification, (The holiness without which NO ONE can see God).

When we learn of God's judicial decision to "no longer hold the sins of the world against them", we have the option to believe that fact and become a Disciple of Christ on earth, OR reject that truth and remain a renegade at hostility with the God who has cancelled our debt, and expects us to do the same for others who are our debtors. Matt.6:12.

Once becoming a Disciple of Christ we may be severely disciplined if we seriously sin. Lk.12:46.

So works of the law do not secure our salvation. Respect for the Law of Christ however secures his approval, and works unfitting a Disciple of Christ can rob us of our inheritance of eternal life and incur punishments either light or severe, as the case may be. Lk.12:47-48.
.

Dave L said:

If he is not holding their sins against them, why do they die if the wages of sin is death?

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Are you suggesting that because they all die, God has not forgiven their sins?

I'm glad you won't be presiding at my funeral.

Jason0047 said:

God first draws us. Without this drawing, we cannot come to God. But it is God's desire that all should be saved. So God is knocking on the door of people's hearts. So at the moment God calls us, we have a choice to make. After God draws us or awakens us to His call, we have free will to choose Him. For the Bible teaches that we have Free will to choose God. Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.



Well, you make it sound like it is bad that works or obedience play a part in the salvation process after being saved by God's grace. Are you appealing to Morality? Yes? No doubt you believe it would be immoral for us to rob God of His glory in saving us vs. Us trying to save ourselves. Is this correct?

But if you truly are appealing to Morality entirely, you cannot say that we can be disobedient and sin while under God's grace with us being saved, either. For that is the only alternative position of saying that we are not saved by obedience (after being saved by God's grace). The only other position of not being saved by obedience (involving God's saving grace) is being saved by God's grace in disobedience or sin. Is that not even more wrong on a Moral level to say that we can trust in God's grace and yet also rebel against God by sinning with the thinking we are saved? Would not God have to agree with sin in order for Him to agree with a plan of salvation that says we can commit willful sin on some level with the thinking we are saved? Some will say that this sin is paid for at the cross. However, this does not work because God cannot agree with sin. Only man's wrong doing is paid for. God cannot agree with a sin and still be saved plan of salvation. If so, then He would have to agree with sin; And God cannot do that because He is holy, righteous, and good.

Also, no doubt you appeal to the regeneration as an excuse that a believer will not live an excessively sinful lifestyle. But this is just a tacked on excuse that basically is saying that works or holiness do need to be there in order for a person to be saved. Unless of course you believe that a saint can still be saved while doing horrible acts of evil (Which is saying that we are saved by God's grace with no obedience). For do you believe King David was saved during the time he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

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J
Add Philemon 14 to your list.
This is a very clear verse regarding free will.

ExTiff said:

We can and do, sin while under God's grace.

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First, it deeply saddens me that any believer would actually think this way. God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). God is good; And His people are good, too. For they are reflection of the character of God living in them.

Second, you know the good guys from the bad guys by what they do and not in them having a belief alone. For if an axe murderer had a family tied up and was about to kill them and said he believed in Jesus, I highly doubt that the family would believe he was a genuine Christian who was truly following the teachings of Jesus. Paul says if any man does not consent (i.e. does not agree) with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Three, in Matthew 7:23, we learn about certain believers who did wonderful works, but Jesus told them to depart from Him because they worked iniquity. Iniquity is a form of sinning. In fact, Jesus drives this point home even more and says that any man who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (See Matthew 12:26-27).

You said:

1 Jn.1:10;

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Okay. This verse does not help you in the least bit. Maybe you meant 1 John 1:8? For most Christians I talk with use 1 John 1:8 as their excuse that they will always be in some kind of sin of some kind.

For does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,


In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

Rom.7:21-25.

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In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

While I have a total of 8 reasons that Paul is talking as a Pharisee in Romans 7:14-24, I am only going to give you two reasons (to keep things brief).

Reason #1:


Reason #2:

You said:

We are all sinners and remain so in reality. It is only in God's eyes that we are no longer treated as such, because we are in Christ.

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The Bible teaches that a believer cannot be in fellowship with God and also still be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

ExTiff said:

We can and do, sin while under God's grace.

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No, they don't.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
(Hebrews 10:26).

GodsGrace101 said:

J
Add Philemon 14 to your list.
This is a very clear verse regarding free will.

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Awesome verse.


Thank you;
And may God bless you today.

ExTiff said:

Matt.6:12.

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Well, I will mention it again that Jesus says in Matthew 6:15 that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father. How can a person be unforgiven and yet saved? It makes no sense. In fact, in Matthew 5:28-30 Jesus warns us that to even look upon a woman in lust can cause one to be cast bodily into hell fire. Again, even after the cross: John warns us that if any man hates his brother he is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in Him (1 John 3:15).

You said:

Once becoming a Disciple of Christ we may be severely disciplined if we seriously sin. Lk.12:46.

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You obviously are not reading this verse correctly.


In other words, the servant who is not looking for their Lord will come in a day when He is not aware and the Lord will cut him off and appoint his portion with the unbelievers. Granted, I believe this is talking about those who miss out on the Rapture; And yes, they will have an opportunity to repent, but the Rapture does not happen in the course of the life of every believer.

You said:

So works of the law do not secure our salvation. Respect for the Law of Christ however secures his approval, and works unfitting a Disciple of Christ can rob us of our inheritance of eternal life and incur punishments either light or severe, as the case may be.
Lk.12:47-48.

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What is the purpose of chastening? Why does a master correct his dog for pooping on the carpet? It is to correct the animal's wrong behavior in order to get the animal to stop leaving hot steaming land mines in his living room to step upon? But what if the dog had an uncontrollable pooping problem because it was sick? Could the master still lightly smack the dog and yell it for pooping brownie goodness upon his beautiful white carpet? No. Correcting the animal would then be non-sensical. Correction is to get the animal to stop. But many who are in the Belief Alone camp would have me believe that a Christian always committ grievous sin while under God's grace their whole lives. Correction does not make any sense in this kind of belief because their is no point where they are ever corrected and stop in committing grievous sin.

But this is not what the Scriptures teach; The Bible says we can overcome grievous sin (See 1 Corinthians 10:13, 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, Romans 13:14, 2 Corinthians 7:1).

ExTiff said:

Are you suggesting that because they all die, God has not forgiven their sins?

I'm glad you won't be presiding at my funeral.

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If he forgave their sins, they wouldn't die and go to Hell.

Jason0047 said:

Nowhere does this passage say that God forces salvation (beyond their free will choice) upon the individual here. It does not say that. It merely says our old nature was disobedient, and we were children of wrath and then it skips to talking about how God was rich in his mercy toward us and then He quickened us. Other things can take place in-between:

(a) Being a child of wrath and,
(b) Being quickened.

Why would we think that way? Well, there are many other verses I showed to you before that talks about how God offers us a free will choice in accepting Him.

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How do you force resuscitation on a comatose victim? That's what we are spiritually when God saves us.

Jason0047 said:

In John 3:3, Jesus is referring to the entrance into God's physical Kingdom one day. Jesus is referring to how in order to one day see or enter God's Kingdom physically one day, we have to be born again spiritually. Jesus is not referring to the drawing of God.

Jesus did not say:

“I’m sorry Nicodemus. There is nothing that you can do. If you are not already Born Again, then no matter how I explain the Gospel to you, you are just not going to get it, being held captive to Total Inability. However, I have good news for you. Since you seem interested, it might mean that you were secretly born again, without realizing it, and are just now coming to the realization that you might just be one of the elect."​

Source Used:
Examining Calvinism
(Note: This does not mean I believe everything the author is saying in the rest of his article; I am merely agreeing with the last paragraph I quoted here).

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Jesus does not have a physical kingdom.

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:20–21)

Emli said:

We don't have to see the Kingdom of God in order to repent. Nowhere does the Bible say so. We only have to see our own sins and our need for a Savior. Then after we believe and repent, we are born-again, and after this we can see the Kingdom after God opens our eyes to it. We could possibly see the Kingdom in others before we are saved, as they are Jesus to us, but we don't have to before we are saved.

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You cannot believe and repent unless you are born again.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)