We all know the doctrine of 'free will' is not a biblical thing right?

[drich0150]

The point is spelled out in scripture: 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

This being a child and not a slave occurs when the Spirit comes into us and Paul is telling the Galatians: you are his sons and not you will be His sons.

You keep trying to push the idea we are all slaves and thus cannot have free will, but children of God are not slaves and just because you are a "slave" does not mean you still do not have limited free will.

So now that you have read the whole passage in john 8 and you think your self one of the saved (because who am I to tell you otherwise) let look at what Paul had to say about the new/babes in Christ.

4:1 This is what I am saying: When young children inherit all that their father owned, they are still no different from his slaves. It doesn’t matter that they own everything. 2 While they are children, they must obey those who are chosen to care for them. But when they reach the age the father set, they are free. 3 It is the same for us. We were once like children, slaves to the useless rules of this world. 4 But when the right time came, God sent his Son, who was born from a woman and lived under the law. 5 God did this so that he could buy the freedom of those who were under the law. God’s purpose was to make us his children.

6 Since you are now God’s children, he has sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts. The Spirit cries out, “ Abba, Father.” 7 Now you are not slaves like before. You are God’s children, and you will receive everything he promised his children.

So unless you receive the Holy SPirit, you are to be treated still as being under the law/as a slave. So How do I know you have not received the Spirit? because you will not/can not accept the words of the Father through Jesus in john 8 where Jesus Himself says you are a slave to sin, and if you can not accept this you do not accept me or the teaching of the Father. Rather you are listening to your own father the devil.

You can not have both ways. where you are specifically that is for you to decide. the only thin I can tell you is if you can not accept the words of Christ then you can not have His Spirit. hence you go back to the minimum of being a new born in the faith which makes you a slave or like a slave.

 

[Landon Caeli]

You can have free will I talk about it in the link below
http://master-elaine.blogspot.com/2018/08/predestined-and-freewill.html

Nice bracelet.

 

[Landon Caeli]

@drich0150, I don't understand a lot of what you said...

 

[drich0150]

<D150>... free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun 1.the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.(google dictionary)
So it is not about choosing what is available to you but the ability to obtain or act without restraint. [m]eaning you can obtain what you will without obstruction...<end>
I glanced thru your OP and immediately saw a glaring misrepresentation. The verb in the definition is "act/acting" repeated twice. But in your explanation you changed the verb to "obtain/obtaining." You do know the difference between "act[ing]" and "obtain[ing]" don't you?
Since you do not know the difference or deliberately misrepresented the definition of "free will." and blew off my post referring to it as a "verse dump" your posts will no longer appear on my radar.

the above.. fake news...

The power of acting without constraint is obtaining, which is at the core of the literal defination... lok at it it is literally the first sentence. to act without constraint means to seek and obtain without anyone or anything resisting you, You will this whatever to fit what you want it to be.

Then the idea is reinforced with: "the ability to act in one's own discretion." again show no barriers or limitation to act at one's own discretion.

Again the alternative to free will is not predestination. the alternative is slavery. Christ words not mine sport, you are literally arguing a Jesus Christ taught message with nearly the same words the pharisees used.. how does this not scare you?

free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1. 1.
   the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

 

[drich0150]

You can have free will I talk about it in the link below
http://master-elaine.blogspot.com/2018/08/predestined-and-freewill.html

book chapter and verse.. that is the only place it matters, however no book chapter or verse exist concerning this doctrine. in fact the opposite is true. the bible/Jesus Christ Himself calls us slaves. He also go on to say if you can not accept this fact it is because you do not know the words of the Father, and you are listening to your father the devil.

So yeah you can have free will, just not with God, as His will always comes first.

 

[drich0150]

@drich0150, I don't understand a lot of what you said...

where do you want to start?

How about with the OP as an outline.

Free will is not a biblical concept..

How can I say this? 1 free will hadn't been invented when the bible was written and or compiled. the idea of free will was not even an argument till sometime after 600AD. Even then it was used to disprove the idea of God. as the idea of free will put's man's will over that of God, which userps God's authority making him..not God.

Rather if we look at the bible the bible does not calls us robots either. it calls us saves or rather Jesus Christ Himself says to any man who sins is a slave to sin... To which the pharisees said nut-huh. we are free men. (which was not true because they were under roman rule) but they didn't seem themselves as rag wearing out in the field slaves. Then Jesus said if you do not believe yourself to be a slave it is because you do not know the words of the Father, you are listening to your own father the devil.

Now Jesus did die to set us free, but as Paul points out, while we are young in the faith we have so much freedom we can bind ourselves to the law and still act and live as slaves. it is not until we are freed by the Holy Spirit that we become as free men. However The issue becomes if you can not accept the words of the Father you can not have the Holy Spirit.

Being filled with the Spirit is what life is after salvation.

if you are still confused cut and paste the section (even if it is all of it start with the first and work your way down)

 

[Landon Caeli]

where do you want to start?

How about with the OP as an outline.

Free will is not a biblical concept..

How can I say this? 1 free will hadn't been invented when the bible was written and or compiled. the idea of free will was not even an argument till sometime after 600AD. Even then it was used to disprove the idea of God. as the idea of free will put's man's will over that of God, which userps God's authority making him..not God.

Rather if we look at the bible the bible does not calls us robots either. it calls us saves or rather Jesus Christ Himself says to any man who sins is a slave to sin... To which the pharisees said nut-huh. we are free men. (which was not true because they were under roman rule) but they didn't seem themselves as rag wearing out in the field slaves. Then Jesus said if you do not believe yourself to be a slave it is because you do not know the words of the Father, you are listening to your own father the devil.

Now Jesus did die to set us free, but as Paul points out, while we are young in the faith we have so much freedom we can bind ourselves to the law and still act and live as slaves. it is not until we are freed by the Holy Spirit that we become as free men. However The issue becomes if you can not accept the words of the Father you can not have the Holy Spirit.

Being filled with the Spirit is what life is after salvation.

if you are still confused cut and paste the section (even if it is all of it start with the first and work your way down)

It almost seems like you're blending the stain of concupiscence (Original sin), with the completely seperate topic of free will.

Yes, we are slaves to sin because of Adam. But since Pentecost, we've been given the Spirit, with all it's graces. God offers us opportunities in the form of many graces to accept the Holy Spirit, but ultimately, that is our choice.

 

[Landon Caeli]

But some people want to be a slave to sin. They prefer to satisfy the flesh and the senses.

...They've been given the free will to do so.

 

[drich0150]

It almost seems like you're blending the stain of concupiscence (Original sin), with the completely seperate topic of free will.

Yes, we are slaves to sin because of Adam. But since Pentecost, we've been given the Spirit, with all it's graces. God offers us opportunities in the form of many graces to accept the Holy Spirit, but ultimately, that is our choice.

But not everyone who is saved receives the Holy Spirit. in Acts 19 we see that it is not enought to just be saved. in this instance it was not till paul laid hands of these brothers did they receive the Holy Spirit.
While Apollos was in the city of Corinth, Paul was visiting some places on his way to Ephesus. In Ephesus he found some other followers of the Lord. 2 He asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

These followers said to him, “We have never even heard of a Holy Spirit!”

3 Paul asked them, “So what kind of baptism did you have?”

They said, “It was the baptism that John taught.”

4 Paul said, “John told people to be baptized to show they wanted to change their lives. He told people to believe in the one who would come after him, and that one is Jesus.”

5 When these followers heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 Then Paul laid his hands on them, and the Holy Spirit came on them. They began speaking different languages and prophesying.7 There were about twelve men in this group.

What I am saying here is if you can not accept the words of Christ in John 8 you according to Christ's own words in that passgae have not accepted the words of the Father but listen to your own Father the Devil. As such if you have the devil guiding you then you can not have the Holy Spirit. if this is the case even if you still consider yourself saved Paul per Gal 4 :
This is what I am saying: When young children inherit all that their father owned, they are still no different from his slaves. It doesn’t matter that they own everything. 2 While they are children, they must obey those who are chosen to care for them. But when they reach the age the father set, they are free. 3 It is the same for us. We were once like children, slaves to the useless rules of this world. 4 But when the right time came, God sent his Son, who was born from a woman and lived under the law. 5 God did this so that he could buy the freedom of those who were under the law. God’s purpose was to make us his children.

6 Since you are now God’s children, he has sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts. The Spirit cries out, “ Abba, Father.” 7 Now you are not slaves like before. You are God’s children, and you will receive everything he promised his children.

I think the reason you are confused is because you are trying to plug in what I've said here with some other doctrine and you want to argue your typical denominational response.

I am not speaking about original sin nor calvinism nor any other tired argument. I simply point out that the doctrine of free will is horrible flawed if you seek to worship the God of the bible. In that it conflicts with what Jesus Himself says.

 

[drich0150]

Some people want to be a slave to sin. They prefer to satisfy the flesh and the senses.

...They've been given the free will to do so.

I think I've said this 1/2 a dozen times now.. in that we have so much freedom we can bind ourselves as slaves under God. or I point out that as being young in the faith we are slaves under the law..

What I'm wanting to do is share the Holy Spirit in such a way as to free us from this young in the faith slavery. As it is apart of what is offered to us.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<DR>the above.. fake news...
The power of acting without constraint is obtaining, which is at the core of the literal defination... lok at it it is literally the first sentence. to act without constraint means to seek and obtain without anyone or anything resisting you, You will this whatever to fit what you want it to be.
Then the idea is reinforced with: "the ability to act in one's own discretion." again show no barriers or limitation to act at one's own discretion.
Again the alternative to free will is not predestination. the alternative is slavery. Christ words not mine sport, you are literally arguing a Jesus Christ taught message with nearly the same words the pharisees used.. how does this not scare you?
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.<end>

end

When one posts a definition then twists the words of that definition to fit their assumptions/presuppositions there is no point in continuing the discussion.

 

[Landon Caeli]

But not everyone who is saved receives the Holy Spirit. in Acts 19 we see that it is not enought to just be saved. in this instance it was not till paul laid hands of these brothers did they receive the Holy Spirit.
While Apollos was in the city of Corinth, Paul was visiting some places on his way to Ephesus. In Ephesus he found some other followers of the Lord. 2 He asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

These followers said to him, “We have never even heard of a Holy Spirit!”

3 Paul asked them, “So what kind of baptism did you have?”

They said, “It was the baptism that John taught.”

4 Paul said, “John told people to be baptized to show they wanted to change their lives. He told people to believe in the one who would come after him, and that one is Jesus.”

5 When these followers heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 Then Paul laid his hands on them, and the Holy Spirit came on them. They began speaking different languages and prophesying.7 There were about twelve men in this group.

What I am saying here is if you can not accept the words of Christ in John 8 you according to Christ's own words in that passgae have not accepted the words of the Father but listen to your own Father the Devil. As such if you have the devil guiding you then you can not have the Holy Spirit. if this is the case even if you still consider yourself saved Paul per Gal 4 :
This is what I am saying: When young children inherit all that their father owned, they are still no different from his slaves. It doesn’t matter that they own everything. 2 While they are children, they must obey those who are chosen to care for them. But when they reach the age the father set, they are free. 3 It is the same for us. We were once like children, slaves to the useless rules of this world. 4 But when the right time came, God sent his Son, who was born from a woman and lived under the law. 5 God did this so that he could buy the freedom of those who were under the law. God’s purpose was to make us his children.

6 Since you are now God’s children, he has sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts. The Spirit cries out, “ Abba, Father.” 7 Now you are not slaves like before. You are God’s children, and you will receive everything he promised his children.

I think the reason you are confused is because you are trying to plug in what I've said here with some other doctrine and you want to argue your typical denominational response.

I am not speaking about original sin nor calvinism nor any other tired argument. I simply point out that the doctrine of free will is horrible flawed if you seek to worship the God of the bible. In that it conflicts with what Jesus Himself says.

I can see you're on fire right now. Possibly we're at two different places on the same path. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[John tower]

This is too funny!
Who was jesus speaking to? the pharisees? what was their response? why do we need to be set free we are sons of abraham we were never slaves!!! What did Jesus then say??
34 Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.
did you intentionally quote the very same passage i used in the OP to make this whole argument possible? or were you just lucky and set your self up for some humble pie?

Not only that... You missed the point I was making in the section you quoted.
Primarily There is NO Koine Greek word for servant. the word is doulos and it literally means slave/bond servant. it was not till modern times that the 2nd definition of servant was added because of the distaste for the word slave modern westerners have for the word. Go into an older lexicon and the word slave is the only meaning.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1401&t=NKJV
Why because one's willingness or unwillingness to serve has no bearing on the matter. what makes a doulos a slave, meaning the crux of the definition means to have your will subject to the want and will of another. Meaning your master's will comes first. whether you elected this get paid don't get paid those are all modern western concerns/defination of slavery. in the OT and the NT one thing matter, who's will came first.

When Christ Identifies us as slaves to sin He is saying the will of sin comes first.

save the victory lap/closing statement till you establish something. Otherwise you are just talking at people... none of this means doodly squat unless you can explain how it ties in to your point... Jesus himself hated the pharisees for puffing themselves up with many words in their prayers and sermons... If you can't take the time to explain something leave it out.

Rom 9(16), Phil 2(13), Jer 10(23)

 

[drich0150]

<DR>the above.. fake news...
The power of acting without constraint is obtaining, which is at the core of the literal defination... lok at it it is literally the first sentence. to act without constraint means to seek and obtain without anyone or anything resisting you, You will this whatever to fit what you want it to be.
Then the idea is reinforced with: "the ability to act in one's own discretion." again show no barriers or limitation to act at one's own discretion.
Again the alternative to free will is not predestination. the alternative is slavery. Christ words not mine sport, you are literally arguing a Jesus Christ taught message with nearly the same words the pharisees used.. how does this not scare you?
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.<end>
When one posts a definition then twists the words of that definition to fit their assumptions/presuppositions there is no point in continuing the discussion.

Not true.

all you have to do is show me in my/Christ's line of thought where we are wrong. because again this is his argument not mine. I am simply bring it to your attention.

 

[drich0150]

I can see you're on fire right now. Possibly we're at two different places on the same path. I'll just leave it at that.

IDK what that means.

If it is a bad thing then why let me burn? If it is a good thing why let me burn too long?

 

[drich0150]

Rom 9(16), Phil 2(13), Jer 10(23)

19 So one of you will ask me, “If God controls what we do, why does he blame us for our sins?”

13 Yes, it is God who is working in you. He helps you want to do what pleases him, and he gives you the power to do it.

23 Lord, I know that our lives do not belong to us.
We have no control over what happens.


???????

The first fragment comes from paul telling us not to question God about being made to sin/we would not understand.

verse 13 contextual verses all point to being who God wants you to be.

the last describes the destruction of judah.

when you frame out each verse and put them in their historical contexts, they mean nothing together. So then what are you trying to say cut and pasting the bible together?

 

[bling]

S
So unless you receive the Holy SPirit, you are to be treated still as being under the law/as a slave. So How do I know you have not received the Spirit? because you will not/can not accept the words of the Father through Jesus in john 8 where Jesus Himself says you are a slave to sin, and if you can not accept this you do not accept me or the teaching of the Father. Rather you are listening to your own father the devil.

You can not have both ways. where you are specifically that is for you to decide. the only thin I can tell you is if you can not accept the words of Christ then you can not have His Spirit. hence you go back to the minimum of being a new born in the faith which makes you a slave or like a slave.

I know I have the indwelling Holy Spirit, but I do quench the Spirit (way too much) and do stuff on my own. Ro. 8: 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. And really all of Ro. 8, tells us we have to have the Spirit to be a true Christian.

A child should “work” harder than slave as an example if nothing else, but the motivation is Love so it is not really work.

 

[Ron Gurley]

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-true-doctrine-of-free-will-biblical-examples.8011505/

 

[drich0150]

I know I have the indwelling Holy Spirit, but I do quench the Spirit (way too much) and do stuff on my own. Ro. 8: 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. And really all of Ro. 8, tells us we have to have the Spirit to be a true Christian.

A child should “work” harder than slave as an example if nothing else, but the motivation is Love so it is not really work.

Your right true christians have the Holy Spirit. however not all have the same spiritual allotment/gifts. While we all may share a common set of fruit, the SPirit's works/ability to work with in a person highly depends on their faithfulness to the measure they first receive. God gives us the Spirit and fruit of the SPirit. if we are faith to that it will manifest into gift. and if we are faith to them greater gifts more spiritual involvement. If however we are working against the spirit and or not faithful/put the fruit/gifts to work then God does not bless us with more. rather what we have is taken away and given to the ne who has shown to be faithful. (parable of the talents.)

 

[John tower]

We all know that "free will" is a Bibilcal doctrine. It's just that some pretend not to.

Rom 9(16), Phil 2(13), James 1(18), Jer 10(23), John 1(13)