We all know the doctrine of 'free will' is not a biblical thing right?

[drich0150]

Deu 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:



Jos 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]..
from the op:
"Oh but drich I choose what color car I have I choose where to eat lunch I choose who I married.. ect.. ect.." That is not free will. Those are examples of choices. true free will described 600 years ago is or was a thought experiment. it is not possible with or without God. for example let start by defining it now.
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1. 1.
   the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

(google dictionary)
So it is not about choosing what is available to you but the ability to obtain or act without restraint. eaning you can obtain what you will without obstruction.. Example:

Let's say you did choose what color car you got, but did you choose out of all the cars that ever was or ever will be? is the car you got the One car you always ever wanted? or was it the color you wanted in your price range? Did you even get all the options you wanted? did they make you get the undercoating you didn't want? did you choose THE car or A car that fit your life style/budget?
Did you eat lunch somewhere you could afford locally? or did you hope on a jet and flew to nyc because you wanted 2 slices of real pizza? Did you marry that rock start or movie star that you really really like?or did you marry some guy from the singles group over someone else in the singles group?

Life is a series of choices a or b all of which are determined by your lot/station in life. Like a slave even a chattel slave in colonial america they had choices they were given. some were even given a small salary that they could spend on whatever they wanted.. Some even saved up to buy their own wives.. but even from our collective perspective now we would not say those slaves where free just because they had a few choices they could make. So too are we to God. We are not free. We are all slaves to sin which is why John 3:18 says he need not judge us, as we are prejudged when we do not accept Christ. because atonement buys us from sin. If we don't elect to be bought then we are already on the path to destruction.

 

[drich0150]

You can quote scripture all day, but if you quote it out of context you can make it say anything you want with many words like you have. Pure ignorance, and Reformation twisting of scripture and blindness, resulting in a dead message.

Bwahahahaha!
You are accusing me of quoting out of context, the great one 1/2 sentence of one verse you've used to dispell what Christ himself says in John8

How do you reconcile what Christ says that all who sin are slaves to sin? Show me in one place not this scrap book theology you are so quick to cut and paste your own bible together with.

What is the point of having book chapter and verse if your intention is to just go from one verse fragment to another... my who point in my last post to you was the fact that i am using 1/2 a page in some cases to frame out my message, yet you pretend that is not enough and very hypocritically in the same breath leave me sentence fragments to disprove what 1/2 a page of text establishes!

Seriously how can 1/2 a chapter not frame out context while you 1/2 page efforts somehow are enough to cancel out what paul says in romans 7? and I did reference the WHOLE Chapter, but only posted 1/2 of it.

Before i address this mess you left please explain to me how the rules you apply to me do not apply to you.

Romans 7
Romans 7 needs to start at verse 7, NEVER 14, and end in the next chapter at verse 9. The way you present it has the Holy Spirit powerless. You even have 1 John 1:8 as a Christian, the same as you do Romans 7. ROFL Everyone who starts out of context, makes the mistake of only seeing: Sin rules me as if I were its slave. It is like they are looking for an excuse to be like the world. Romans 7 is the culmination of Paul's teaching on THE LAW. He ends the teaching with a question he then answers, who can save someone of being a slave to sin and being under the law? JESUS. 1 John 3:5 says "for He (Jesus) was manifested to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin." So if you are still a slave to sin, you don't have Jesus. 1 John 3:8-9 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Chapter 8 is part of the context of 7 and cannot be ignored. Pauls teaching on the LAW takes us to its contrast - the Spirit. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

1 John 1:8
Since Adam sinned, we have all inherited the fallen sin nature. Everyone. So no one can say they have never sinned. Even those before Christ who had the Ten Commandments sinned, because of the 10th commandment, the only commandment of the heart - coveting. All the rest of the commandments they could easily say they never committed just by never murdering anyone, etc. 1 John 1:8 is such a person. They don't have Christ, and have never repented. So they still have the sin nature that will be taken away only by Christ. So for them to say they don't sin makes them a liar, for God says of everyone who ever lived "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Verse 8 has to be in context with verse 9. "But if you confess your sin, he is faithful and just to forgive you your sin, and to cleanse you of ALL unrighteousness." This is how one comes to Christ in the first place! Repentance from sin. This is why John the Baptist had to come FIRST. He preached repentance, and making the road straight for coming to the Messiah. Acts 2:38 says to Repent...and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So now that you have had all your sins taken away, and have the Holy Spirit that prevents you from sinning willfully, are you a sinner any longer? NO! So just remember 1 John 1:8 is not speaking of a Christian, but one prior to becoming a Christian, because only through Christ are sins taken away. What I find hilarious, but disturbing of their ignorance, are pastors who use this verse regarding Spirit-filled Christians.Don't they know John is talking to his whole congregation? Some there will be new and are still searching. And there are other reasons I won't go into deeply except to mention the Semitic style of writing shows this verse is one representing those still in "darkness." As is 6 and 10. From verse 5, every other verse is a contrast between light and darkness.

5 - light
6 - darkness
7 - light
8 - darkness
9 - light
10 - darkness

1 John 3:9
The Greek word for commit sin in this verse means one time, not "continuing in" or "practicing" as some would want you to believe. This type of sin is talked of next.

1 John 1:7
Here we have someone walking in the light or Holy Spirit, and they have fellowship with one another (with God), and the blood of Jesus cleanses them from all sin. So what type of sins does one commit while walking in the light? Seems a contradiction doesn't it? Especially when 1 John 3:9 says we cannot sin. Well, in God's eyes there are two types of sin. (Don't let anyone tell you "sin is sin," another statement born of ignorance of the Old Testament.) There are willful sins that you know are sins and you want to do them anyway - rebellion against God (which is the kind 3:9 is speaking of, and Hebrews 10:26) Sexual willful sin is the most powerful and the reason so much is spoken against it. The other type of sin is unintentional sins, that you don't even know about. God looks at the heart, and motives. These unintentional sins are called transgressions or trespasses. Leviticus 5:15 "If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally..." They have to do with maturity and the fruit of the Spirit, which the Lord prunes John 15:1-8. We even see in the same book in the last chapter that there are these two types of sins, "sins unto death," and "sins NOT unto death." 1 John 5:16-17 Willful sins are sins unto death. Transgressions are sins not unto death. In the Lord's Prayer we don't ask to be forgiven for our sins unto death, as we forgive others their sins unto death they commit against us. No, we won't be committing them in the first place, because of the Seed of the Father in us - 1 John 3:9. It says, "and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." These we will commit, but less and less as we grow in the Spirit. From glory to glory. Look at Numbers 15:22-36. There was a sacrifice for unintentional sins, but there was no sacrifice for willful/presumptuous sins - they killed them. So as far as sins not imputed - 1 John 1:7 says these unintentional sins we don't even know about are continually being cleansed even though they missed the mark and are called sins. And when we first come to Christ, all our WILLFUL sins of the past are forgiven and not imputed against us. Jesus then gives you His own Spirit that creates a new nature in us that doesn't want to sin. (Another false doctrine is that instead of only our past willful sins being forgiven, they say willful present and future sins are also forgiven {they commonly say, our "past, present and future sins are forgiven"}. That is not in the Bible.) How can we who are dead to sin, sin presently or in the future? Sin no longer has power over you to feed its lusts, and as such, as you walk in the Spirit you are no longer under the law. For through the law is the knowledge of sin. If you aren't committing sin, then you aren't under the law. In no way does it mean that Jesus died so we can commit sin with no punishment. Paul squashed that notion by saying the wages of sin is still death. So choose either righteousness, or sin. Which one will be your master. Romans 6.

I want to save this for a romans study

You have a lot of false pride, but don't let this post go right over your head too and be foolishness to you. Obviously, you know nothing of the power of the Holy Spirit, and can't relate to it. You really need the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It then will be very clear to you when you no longer have to struggle with the draw of sin like the unsaved who are still a slave to sin.

Wow all of that so you do not have to reconcile the words of Christ in John 8. Can't destroy the message, so destroy the messenger then salt the earth..

Out of everything I have said and done Have I ever called into question your intentions? the condition of your heart? your eterna status? no I saw you as simply holding an opposing view. That doesn't mean Christ sees you a different way, and outside of what was written about those who opposed his teaching here I made no personal judgments against any of you.

Truly look at how you responded.. I challenged what you believed and you are ready to send me to hell knowing nothing more of me. nice... So where exactly do you model this behavior from?

If you'd ask me that I'd point to Christ again asking questions and challenging the pharisees on the 'religious practices' they held to like if it were the law. Christ even goes so far as to show them where their rules over step the law and what do they do. they try and discredit him personally as they can not destroy the message, not only that they trivialize his pedigree and followers in an attempt to salt the earth beneath him. sounds vaguely familiar doesn't it?[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[drich0150]

Had you bothered to actually read my post you would have seen there was a paragraph at the beginning explaining the purpose of the scripture I posted and a sentence at the end summarizing.
.....Everything in my previous post was my own effort. I accidentally found that passage while I was looking for the context of of a proof text someone tossed at me.

don't be bottom sore just because I did not understand what looked to be just a collection of bible verses. I am not criticizing you. I just do not understand your methodology of trying to teach though verses without any or better explanation.

 

[drich0150]

If we weren't by nature free we wouldn't be able to call ourselves slaves

AGAIN YOU ARE ARGUING CHRIST'S WORDS

(ME31 So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

(You33 They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”

(me34 Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.35 A slave does not stay with a family forever. But a son belongs to the family forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you are really free. 37 I know you are Abraham’s descendants. But you want to kill me, because you don’t want to accept my teaching. 38 I am telling you what my Father has shown me. But you do what your father has told you.”

do you understand? My words are Christ's words... Your words MIRROR that of the pharisees.. Who do you think will win this argument?

Again not that we shall never be Free as we are bought by the blood of Christ but as Paul says This is what I am saying: When young children inherit all that their father owned, they are still no different from his slaves. It doesn’t matter that they own everything. 2 While they are children, they must obey those who are chosen to care for them. But when they reach the age the father set, they are free. 3 It is the same for us. We were once like children, slaves to the useless rules of this world.

So then we know if one can not accept what Christ says in John 8 he does not know Him or the Father who sent Him let alone the Spirit.

 

[drich0150]

I think you are argue the fact we are not “freemen” since we are all slaves to someone (God or satan).

Wow! you figured that out or did you just read the op because I say that very thing! eitherway you are ahead of the curb.

Yet, having a free will to make even one autonomous free will choice means God has gifted you with limited free will.

again not according to the dictionary definition of free will. again if A slave own gave a slave complete autonomy to choose a mate/wife, is this man any less of a slave? One choice makes you no less of a slave because that choice whatever you choose was still subject to the will of the owner first. And that is what the koine greek word doulos means when it is used to describe a slave! not if one is paid or want to be a servant or not. the word doulos means to have one's will subject to another first. meaning no matter what you want your master has final say. That friend, is not free will. like wise you can not make a decision or decide to do something God says no to. You cant decide you will live to 00 eat right and exercise and think you have any say on how long you will live. Fore if God says tonight is that night, then that is it no matter what your will is on the matter. Choice is not will, that is where slow minded people loose their lunch over. to make a choice is not freedom if the choice is permissible or allowed by your master. Will is to decide the things we can not on our own.

You said:

If 'free will' was a thing a biblical thing, why would paul say this? why is their a struggle with in him? why does he call himself a slave to sin? why is there conflict? should he be able to will himself free? if the man who wrote 2/3 of the NT and in full contact with God, can not free himself from this bondage how have you done it?

Choices can be struggles since it is not automatic and up to you with likely alternatives. If there were no likely alternatives (like the perceived pleasures of sin) it would not be a real choice.

which is kinda my whole point.. look at the passion and anger and frustration Paul has in sinning when he clearly want to do Good. If Paul the apostle had free will would he not will himself a sin free life? clearly he wants this more than anything but can't. so he separates the part of him he has given to God which hates sin and wants to sin no more fro the body/spirit that is still a slave to sin. While his body may sin, that is no longer him who sins but the sin that lives in him/the old slave. One this body is dead then... we are free to do our will and live without sin. but until then the best we can do is separate our souls who hate sin from our body spirit who satan owns.

Paul’s choice was never “free himself from this bondage” the choice Paul and all of us today can make is “Accept or reject God’s help”.

Clearly He wanted to be free but could ot will himself free which is WHY we need God's help is my point. If Paul had free will given the self loathing he writes about when he sins, don't you think he would choose freedom from sin if He had that option?

God frees us and not we ourselves. People do not like accepting God’s help, because it is very humbling to accept pure sacrificial charity and people have pride (even if it is a false pride).

which is why people here do not like the idea of being identified as a slave. they want to make it a work of their own personal will that they are saved and stay saved.. when in fact it is not us at all in any way.

 

[1stcenturylady]

@drich0150 Can you please correct the mish-mash you've posted #62. What a mess, and you just left it that way. Better to hide the fact you don't know how to answer my post, because you are just quoting other sources. Unfortunately those sources are from false doctrine and can easily be shown to be false as I've done through scripture.

And what verse in John 8 are you talking about?

 

[drich0150]

Gal. 4: 1What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces[a] of the world. 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,[c] Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

We clearly have different understandings for this same passage.

I look at verses 1-5 and it clearly says while young in the faith (you and everyone who can not accept the words of Christ when he says all who sin are slaves to sin) need to be treated and held under the very same rules as a slave would be. meaning those who do not understand the nature of the law should be working their christianity as a legalist should, meaning you should work to try and up hold the law the best you can... UNTIL verse 6 and 7 happens The young have not receive the Holy Spirit yet. until they do they should be regarded and work as slaves not sons yet. Once you receive the Spirit you are considered a son.

So the question to me from you should be why do you not think I have received the Holy Spirit? because of What Christ said in John 8

If you can not accept what Jesus says it is because you do not know me and you do not know the Father. You can not claim to know the Spirit and not know the words of Christ and the Father meaning if you can not admit your slave status to sin then according to Christ's own words it is because you listen to your father satan and not Him. I would then suggest you can not be filled with the spirit and be considered a 'son of God' if according to the measure of Christ Himself you belong to satan..

What do you think this passage means?

 

[A_Thinker]

This came up in a thread a day or two ago and was surprised by how many people were arguing for free will.

If you ever take this argument into a... 'collage level' discussion with someone without an ear for all things religious, they would quickly point out or just ask how can free will be a point discussed in the bible when it wasn't even a topic of contention till 600 years after Christ? In fact the bible never mentions this term. Rather the oppsite is true. in that the bible/Jesus and paul identifies us as slaves.

Furthermore the topic of Free will was the primary weapon used to disprove a omni-max God. In that we people can not have free will if God is Omni-max. (Omni-max meaning all-powerful loving strong, all knowing ect..) this argument is one of many, it is known as the epicurean paradox. Many of you have heard this before: Epicurus’s old questions are yet unanswered. Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?

The idea being if free will is choice then evil is the ultimate expression of free will, meaning if we had no choices other than what God has provided then everything we choose to do is God's will/without sin, if God is opposed to evil, then evil can not be God's will. However if God has given us free will then the evil i this world is also apart of God's will. hence free will is proved by the ability for us to commit evil acts yet God punishes us for working with in His will.

Now roll idea this into the what the paradox says.. These opposing ideas are what make the paradox of 'free will' impossible to the 6th century mind. in that on one hand God is powerless to stop evil, or as the paradox put's it melovent to evil, or He grants us the right to be evil no matter how you look at it the paradox has God breaking one of his omni-max attributes.

So according to this paradox, either God is not all powerful, can't stop evil.
Melovent won't stop evil.
or unjust/unrighteous, given us over to evil and then punishes us for being what he has created.

So how does a christian mind refute these ideas?
well one. we must recognise that Epurius' work was originally meant to describe his gods.. Not God/Christ. This paradox was written 300 years before Christ, and was a challenge to the greek God who do indeed claim to be omni max... Our God does not use those titles to describe himself. "we" attribute those titles to Him. He only ever called himself the alpha and omega and the beginning and the end. or "I am." More over, no where in the bible does God claim to be onmi-benolovent.

Yes God's love is endless, but it is not for everyone. Onmibenolvent God loves everyone to the max. John 3:16-18 explains this.. God so loved the world that he gave his only son that WHO SO EVER BELIEVES IN HIM... Shall not perish but have ever lasting life..17 God sent his Son into the world. He did not send him to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

There is a condition to God's boundless love. Which means His love is not extended to everyone. Just to those who 'believe.' That in of itself breaks the epicurean paradox. In that the God of the bible never claims to be 'all loving.' He only being the alpha and omega (meaning he can do whatever he wants) offers endless love to His people/Those who want freedom from sin. Which bring us to verse 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

In essence Jesus died to BUY those who believe from sin and evil. Why do i say buy? because the bible again never says we have free will, rather over and over and over again the bible even Christ describes us as slaves. We are slaves to sin or we elect to be slaves of God. and that is the only true choice we can 'freely' make.

"Oh but drich I choose what color car I have I choose where to eat lunch I choose who I married.. ect.. ect.." That is not free will. Those are examples of choices. true free will described 600 years ago is or was a thought experiment. it is not possible with or without God. for example let start by defining it now.
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1. 1.
   the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

(google dictionary)
So it is not about choosing what is available to you but the ability to obtain or act without restraint. eaning you can obtain what you will without obstruction.. Example:

Let's say you did choose what color car you got, but did you choose out of all the cars that ever was or ever will be? is the car you got the One car you always ever wanted? or was it the color you wanted in your price range? Did you even get all the options you wanted? did they make you get the undercoating you didn't want? did you choose THE car or A car that fit your life style/budget?
Did you eat lunch somewhere you could afford locally? or did you hope on a jet and flew to nyc because you wanted 2 slices of real pizza? Did you marry that rock start or movie star that you really really like?or did you marry some guy from the singles group over someone else in the singles group?

Life is a series of choices a or b all of which are determined by your lot/station in life. Like a slave even a chattel slave in colonial america they had choices they were given. some were even given a small salary that they could spend on whatever they wanted.. Some even saved up to buy their own wives.. but even from our collective perspective now we would not say those slaves where free just because they had a few choices they could make. So too are we to God. We are not free. We are all slaves to sin which is why John 3:18 says he need not judge us, as we are prejudged when we do not accept Christ. because atonement buys us from sin. If we don't elect to be bought then we are already on the path to destruction.

Christ himself tells us we are slaves to sin and for those who can not except this are disavowing the words of HIS FATHER, in favor for the words of their own father.. We must accept the words of Christ because the doctrine of 'free will' is poison and will keep us from ever knowing or even understanding God's truth.

Psalm 119 - 108. Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.”

 

[drich0150]

You talk about a college level discussion but all you have done is the same thing you claim others are doing who don't take it to the college level.

awwwe cute. let's start with a personal insulte by taking my own words out of context..
Or let put them back in so you understand what 'collage level is'
Here is what I said:
'collage level' discussion with someone without an ear for all things religious, they would quickly point out or just ask how can free will be a point discussed in the bible when it wasn't even a topic of contention till 600 years after Christ?

A collage level debate starts out with an underlining subject matter which was provided in the passage bove. Then for the next 4 paragraphs I outline both sides of the arguement provide evidence for both, ultimatly concluding that the time line for the philosiphical "free will debate post dates the bibe by 600 years leaving the question how can the bible teach a concept not invented for another 600 years? the answer clear is, that the bible doesn't the christian religion does, but that is apart from the bible. then I provided several verses that point the oppsite of free will to be true. and as a point of clarity so we do not approach the subject from 100 different personal definations I use the common english defination and from that compare what the bibles says to the actul defination.
IF you do not see this evidence it is because YOU HAVE NOT READ THE OP AND ARE POSTING BLIND! 100% chance on the next thing you say will be to the calvinist position.. because I can already tell you are setting yourself up for a revelation that this topic is not in need of.

You have seen (I am assuming) all of the evidence and then chose one side over the other without exploring the possibility that both sides are correct. (GASP) You see, the bible uses words like predestination, foreordained, and so forth.

bingo bango bongo!!!
You are arguing predestination being the opposite of free will.. Again if you read the OP you'd know that is not the subject matter being discussed in this thread. I am not saying predestination is the opposite of free will. I am saying that free will per the google dictionary: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. So what is the oppsite of this? Slavery. In that slaves are still given choice, but can not operate with the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. Everything a slave does or chooses must first be approved by their master.

So then as Christ puts it we are a slave to sin or we serve God. that is our only real choice.

We serve a God who exists outside of time and can see the end from the beginning and vice-versa. Yet we also serve a God who set before us life and death, blessing and cursing and then told us to CHOOSE LIFE. Choice.... the words are there just as predestination is there. So the "College level" thing to do, drich, isn't to pick one over the other...

Glob I dont care what collage people do I was using that to try and raise the bar from the ya'huh and nut huh arguments we tend to have here. which is why I made the effort in the Op (which you clearly did not take time to read (another collage level thing to do apparently) to completely flesh out both sides of the argument I was making which is a far sight from the mess you made here.

it is to wait on God to bring you to the point where you can reconcile the fact that BOTH do appear in Scripture.

my lost brother I can and did in the OP maybe you should read a little or and preach a little less at least before you yourself get taught a lesson.

I firmly believe both exist in Scripture and have no issue with that... can you get to that place instead of drawing a line between you and other brothers in Christ who chose the other side of the coin that you did?

Again sport... Christ words not mine:
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

33 They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”

34 Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.35 A slave does not stay with a family forever. But a son belongs to the family forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you are really free. 37 I know you are Abraham’s descendants. But you want to kill me, because you don’t want to accept my teaching. 38 I am telling you what my Father has shown me. But you do what your father has told you.”

 

[drich0150]

Psalm 119 - 108. Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.”

105 Your word is like a lamp that guides my steps,
a light that shows the path I should take.
106 Your laws are good and fair.
I have promised to obey them, and I will keep my promise.
107 Lord, I have suffered for a long time.
Say the word, and I will live again!
108 Lord, accept the praise I want to give you,
and teach me your laws.
109 My life is always in danger,
but I have not forgotten your teachings.
110 The wicked try to trap me,
but I have not disobeyed your instructions.
111 The rules you have given me to follow will be mine forever.
They give me great joy.
112 More than anything I want to obey your laws always,
until the end of my life.

??????

Can you point out you passage?

 

[drich0150]

@drich0150 Can you please correct the mish-mash you've posted #62. What a mess, and you just left it that way. Better to hide the fact you don't know how to answer my post, because you are just quoting other sources. Unfortunately those sources are from false doctrine and can easily be shown to be false as I've done through scripture.

And what verse in John 8 are you talking about?

Your profile doesn't give an age, but I would say around 20. You have a lot to learn, so you better get off your high horse, so you can learn something.

can you like the way i do point to a specific problem you are having?

 

[1stcenturylady]

can you like the way i do point to a specific problem you are having?

What in the world are you talking about. You haven't pointed out anything clearly. Your grammar is so bad it is like English is not your first language. Is it?

 

[Der Alte]

don't be bottom sore just because I did not understand what looked to be just a collection of bible verses. I am not criticizing you. I just do not understand your methodology of trying to teach though verses without any or better explanation.

Now that I have clarified that for you perhaps you could go back and actually read my post and respond to it. Here is a link to my [post #22]

 

[A_Thinker]

108 Lord, accept the praise I want to give you,
and teach me your laws.
109 My life is always in danger,
but I have not forgotten your teachings.
110 The wicked try to trap me,
but I have not disobeyed your instructions.
111 The rules you have given me to follow will be mine forever.
They give me great joy.
112 More than anything I want to obey your laws always,
until the end of my life.

??????

Can you point out you passage?

New International Version
Accept, LORD, the willing praise of my mouth, and teach me your laws.

New Living Translation
LORD, accept my offering of praise, and teach me your regulations.

English Standard Version
Accept my freewill offerings of praise, O LORD, and teach me your rules.

Berean Study Bible
Accept the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me Your judgments.

New American Standard Bible
O accept the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, And teach me Your ordinances.

King James Bible
Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

Christian Standard Bible
LORD, please accept my freewill offerings of praise, and teach me your judgments.

Contemporary English Version
Accept my offerings of praise and teach me your laws.

Good News Translation
Accept my prayer of thanks, O LORD, and teach me your commands.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
LORD, please accept my willing offerings of praise, and teach me Your judgments.

International Standard Version
LORD, please accept my voluntary offerings of praise, and teach me your judgments.

NET Bible
O LORD, please accept the freewill offerings of my praise! Teach me your regulations!

New Heart English Bible
Please accept the freewill offerings of my mouth, LORD, and teach me your ordinances.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Be pleased with the words of my mouth, Lord Jehovah, and teach me of your judgments.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Please accept the praise I gladly give you, O LORD, and teach me your regulations.

JPS Tanakh 1917
Accept, I beseech Thee, the freewill-offerings of my mouth, O LORD, And teach me Thine ordinances.

New American Standard 1977
O accept the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, And teach me Thine ordinances.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

King James 2000 Bible
Accept, I beseech you, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me your judgments.

American King James Version
Accept, I beseech you, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me your judgments.

American Standard Version
Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill-offerings of my mouth, O Jehovah, And teach me thine ordinances.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The free offerings of my mouth make acceptable, O Lord: and teach me thy judgments.

Darby Bible Translation
Accept, I beseech thee, Jehovah, the voluntary-offerings of my mouth, and teach me thy judgments.

English Revised Version
Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

Webster's Bible Translation
Accept, I beseech thee, the free-will-offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

World English Bible
Accept, I beg you, the willing offerings of my mouth. Yahweh, teach me your ordinances.

Young's Literal Translation
Free-will-offerings of my mouth, Accept, I pray Thee, O Jehovah, And Thy judgments teach Thou me.

 

[1213]

This is too funny!
Who was jesus speaking to? the pharisees?

The scripture says he told it to those who had believed him. Did the pharisees believe him?

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

Primarily There is NO Koine Greek word for servant. the word is doulos and it literally means slave/bond servant. it was not till modern times that the 2nd definition of servant was added because of the distaste for the word slave modern westerners have for the word. Go into an older lexicon and the word slave is the only meaning.

It can be problem that the meanings are not clear always, because words change and we may not always know the direct translation. That is why think best way to understand the correct meanings is the context. If you translate the word to means slave, but the text speaks about free servant, I think it is wrong to add the meaning of a forced labor, which is usually the modern idea of slave.

 

[Ken Rank]

awwwe cute. let's start with a personal insulte by taking my own words out of context..
Or let put them back in so you understand what 'collage level is'
Here is what I said:
'collage level' discussion with someone without an ear for all things religious, they would quickly point out or just ask how can free will be a point discussed in the bible when it wasn't even a topic of contention till 600 years after Christ?

A collage level debate starts out with an underlining subject matter which was provided in the passage bove. Then for the next 4 paragraphs I outline both sides of the arguement provide evidence for both, ultimatly concluding that the time line for the philosiphical "free will debate post dates the bibe by 600 years leaving the question how can the bible teach a concept not invented for another 600 years? the answer clear is, that the bible doesn't the christian religion does, but that is apart from the bible. then I provided several verses that point the oppsite of free will to be true. and as a point of clarity so we do not approach the subject from 100 different personal definations I use the common english defination and from that compare what the bibles says to the actul defination.
IF you do not see this evidence it is because YOU HAVE NOT READ THE OP AND ARE POSTING BLIND! 100% chance on the next thing you say will be to the calvinist position.. because I can already tell you are setting yourself up for a revelation that this topic is not in need of.
bingo bango bongo!!!
You are arguing predestination being the opposite of free will.. Again if you read the OP you'd know that is not the subject matter being discussed in this thread. I am not saying predestination is the opposite of free will. I am saying that free will per the google dictionary: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. So what is the oppsite of this? Slavery. In that slaves are still given choice, but can not operate with the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. Everything a slave does or chooses must first be approved by their master.

So then as Christ puts it we are a slave to sin or we serve God. that is our only real choice.

Glob I dont care what collage people do I was using that to try and raise the bar from the ya'huh and nut huh arguments we tend to have here. which is why I made the effort in the Op (which you clearly did not take time to read (another collage level thing to do apparently) to completely flesh out both sides of the argument I was making which is a far sight from the mess you made here.

my lost brother I can and did in the OP maybe you should read a little or and preach a little less at least before you yourself get taught a lesson.


Again sport... Christ words not mine:
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

33 They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”

34 Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.35 A slave does not stay with a family forever. But a son belongs to the family forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you are really free. 37 I know you are Abraham’s descendants. But you want to kill me, because you don’t want to accept my teaching. 38 I am telling you what my Father has shown me. But you do what your father has told you.”

Not a personal attack, an observation based on what you said... so be upset with yourself, not me. Second, it's college... not collage (a piece of art made by sticking various different materials such as photographs and pieces of paper or fabric onto a backing). I am not sure any collage level discussion happens... anywhere.

Finally, God said, "therefore choose life." So, if you want to pretend that God didn't use the word bâchar in Deut. 30:19 (to choose, elect, decide for) then that's between you and God, not you and me. Because the Hebrew is bâchar and out of the 70 bible versions I have, ALL but 1 have "choose life," and the one that doesn't (Young's Literal) still puts it in the hand of man by saying, "if you are fixed on life." Even the Septuagint, the Greek OT from 300BC, has choose.

So ignore the fact that choice is in Scripture... I don't, I won't... instead, I just waited until I was grown enough to be able to reconcile the fact that both exist. And like I said, I don't have an issue now... both do exist. I would share how I reconciled it, but you very clearly don't want help. So, take care... no sense in either of us wasting time.

 

[bling]

again not according to the dictionary definition of free will. again if A slave own gave a slave complete autonomy to choose a mate/wife, is this man any less of a slave? One choice makes you no less of a slave because that choice whatever you choose was still subject to the will of the owner first. And that is what the koine greek word doulos means when it is used to describe a slave! not if one is paid or want to be a servant or not. the word doulos means to have one's will subject to another first. meaning no matter what you want your master has final say. That friend, is not free will. like wise you can not make a decision or decide to do something God says no to. You cant decide you will live to 00 eat right and exercise and think you have any say on how long you will live. Fore if God says tonight is that night, then that is it no matter what your will is on the matter. Choice is not will, that is where slow minded people loose their lunch over. to make a choice is not freedom if the choice is permissible or allowed by your master. Will is to decide the things we can not on our own.

Doulos does not mean all your will must be subject to the owner to be his slave. Lots of times doulos is better translated servant.

Dictionaries can provide lots of definitions, what we as Christians want to know is how God would define the free will. There were freewill offerings in the Old Testament which should help in us define a Biblical definition. Whatever we do it is because God allowed or helps us to do it, so are we always “slaves” to God or can we be slaves of satan? The father in the prodigal son story allowed his son to take his money and go off into a foreign land, so is the son being a slave of the father?

which is kinda my whole point.. look at the passion and anger and frustration Paul has in sinning when he clearly want to do Good. If Paul the apostle had free will would he not will himself a sin free life? clearly he wants this more than anything but can't. so he separates the part of him he has given to God which hates sin and wants to sin no more fro the body/spirit that is still a slave to sin. While his body may sin, that is no longer him who sins but the sin that lives in him/the old slave. One this body is dead then... we are free to do our will and live without sin. but until then the best we can do is separate our souls who hate sin from our body spirit who satan owns.

You asked: “If Paul the apostle had free will would he not will himself a sin free life?” Again, just because you cannot will yourself to fly like a bird does not mean you do not have a degree of free will.

Paul can choose to allow the indwelling Holy Spirit to participate in what he is doing and thus not sin since the Spirit will not participate in sinning, but that is not Paul personally keeping himself from sinning, but allowing the Spirit to do good stuff through him and thus not sin.

Clearly He wanted to be free but could ot will himself free which is WHY we need God's help is my point. If Paul had free will given the self loathing he writes about when he sins, don't you think he would choose freedom from sin if He had that option?

Again, there are thing you cannot will into happening like flying.

which is why people here do not like the idea of being identified as a slave. they want to make it a work of their own personal will that they are saved and stay saved.. when in fact it is not us at all in any way.

Ro. 6:16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Since God is a “slave” to the compelling force of perfect Love (perfection) and can only do the one thing (the very best thing that can be done) does God have “free will”?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

False Premise >>> (i.e. this is not truth) >>>

Since God is a “slave” to the compelling force of perfect Love (perfection) and can only do the one thing (the very best thing that can be done)

does God have “free will”?

Yahweh does whatever He pleases. (it is written)

 

[bling]

We clearly have different understandings for this same passage.

I look at verses 1-5 and it clearly says while young in the faith (you and everyone who can not accept the words of Christ when he says all who sin are slaves to sin) need to be treated and held under the very same rules as a slave would be. meaning those who do not understand the nature of the law should be working their christianity as a legalist should, meaning you should work to try and up hold the law the best you can... UNTIL verse 6 and 7 happens The young have not receive the Holy Spirit yet. until they do they should be regarded and work as slaves not sons yet. Once you receive the Spirit you are considered a son.

So the question to me from you should be why do you not think I have received the Holy Spirit? because of What Christ said in John 8

If you can not accept what Jesus says it is because you do not know me and you do not know the Father. You can not claim to know the Spirit and not know the words of Christ and the Father meaning if you can not admit your slave status to sin then according to Christ's own words it is because you listen to your father satan and not Him. I would then suggest you can not be filled with the spirit and be considered a 'son of God' if according to the measure of Christ Himself you belong to satan..

What do you think this passage means?

Christians have personally each been given the indwelling Holy Spirit, so we are no longer slaves but children and heirs in the kingdom. Our obedience to God (the master) is not out of "ownership' of us by God as a slave, but out of Love for God who has given His children up front everything except dwelling in heaven right now, since that is given as only a birthright while on earth.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This came up in a thread a day or two ago and was surprised by how many people were arguing for free will.

If you ever take this argument into a... 'collage level' discussion with someone without an ear for all things religious, they would quickly point out or just ask how can free will be a point discussed in the bible when it wasn't even a topic of contention till 600 years after Christ? In fact the bible never mentions this term. Rather the oppsite is true. in that the bible/Jesus and paul identifies us as slaves.

Furthermore the topic of Free will was the primary weapon used to disprove a omni-max God. In that we people can not have free will if God is Omni-max. (Omni-max meaning all-powerful loving strong, all knowing ect..) this argument is one of many, it is known as the epicurean paradox. Many of you have heard this before: Epicurus’s old questions are yet unanswered. Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?

The idea being if free will is choice then evil is the ultimate expression of free will, meaning if we had no choices other than what God has provided then everything we choose to do is God's will/without sin, if God is opposed to evil, then evil can not be God's will. However if God has given us free will then the evil i this world is also apart of God's will. hence free will is proved by the ability for us to commit evil acts yet God punishes us for working with in His will.

Now roll idea this into the what the paradox says.. These opposing ideas are what make the paradox of 'free will' impossible to the 6th century mind. in that on one hand God is powerless to stop evil, or as the paradox put's it melovent to evil, or He grants us the right to be evil no matter how you look at it the paradox has God breaking one of his omni-max attributes.

So according to this paradox, either God is not all powerful, can't stop evil.
Melovent won't stop evil.
or unjust/unrighteous, given us over to evil and then punishes us for being what he has created.

So how does a christian mind refute these ideas?
well one. we must recognise that Epurius' work was originally meant to describe his gods.. Not God/Christ. This paradox was written 300 years before Christ, and was a challenge to the greek God who do indeed claim to be omni max... Our God does not use those titles to describe himself. "we" attribute those titles to Him. He only ever called himself the alpha and omega and the beginning and the end. or "I am." More over, no where in the bible does God claim to be onmi-benolovent.

Yes God's love is endless, but it is not for everyone. Onmibenolvent God loves everyone to the max. John 3:16-18 explains this.. God so loved the world that he gave his only son that WHO SO EVER BELIEVES IN HIM... Shall not perish but have ever lasting life..17 God sent his Son into the world. He did not send him to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

There is a condition to God's boundless love. Which means His love is not extended to everyone. Just to those who 'believe.' That in of itself breaks the epicurean paradox. In that the God of the bible never claims to be 'all loving.' He only being the alpha and omega (meaning he can do whatever he wants) offers endless love to His people/Those who want freedom from sin. Which bring us to verse 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

In essence Jesus died to BUY those who believe from sin and evil. Why do i say buy? because the bible again never says we have free will, rather over and over and over again the bible even Christ describes us as slaves. We are slaves to sin or we elect to be slaves of God. and that is the only true choice we can 'freely' make.

"Oh but drich I choose what color car I have I choose where to eat lunch I choose who I married.. ect.. ect.." That is not free will. Those are examples of choices. true free will described 600 years ago is or was a thought experiment. it is not possible with or without God. for example let start by defining it now.
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1. 1.
   the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

(google dictionary)
So it is not about choosing what is available to you but the ability to obtain or act without restraint. eaning you can obtain what you will without obstruction.. Example:

Let's say you did choose what color car you got, but did you choose out of all the cars that ever was or ever will be? is the car you got the One car you always ever wanted? or was it the color you wanted in your price range? Did you even get all the options you wanted? did they make you get the undercoating you didn't want? did you choose THE car or A car that fit your life style/budget?
Did you eat lunch somewhere you could afford locally? or did you hope on a jet and flew to nyc because you wanted 2 slices of real pizza? Did you marry that rock start or movie star that you really really like?or did you marry some guy from the singles group over someone else in the singles group?

Life is a series of choices a or b all of which are determined by your lot/station in life. Like a slave even a chattel slave in colonial america they had choices they were given. some were even given a small salary that they could spend on whatever they wanted.. Some even saved up to buy their own wives.. but even from our collective perspective now we would not say those slaves where free just because they had a few choices they could make. So too are we to God. We are not free. We are all slaves to sin which is why John 3:18 says he need not judge us, as we are prejudged when we do not accept Christ. because atonement buys us from sin. If we don't elect to be bought then we are already on the path to destruction.

Christ himself tells us we are slaves to sin and for those who can not except this are disavowing the words of HIS FATHER, in favor for the words of their own father.. We must accept the words of Christ because the doctrine of 'free will' is poison and will keep us from ever knowing or even understanding God's truth.

In John 3:16 the condition is put on receiving salvation not on God’s love for everyone. Just because everyone must believe to in order to “never parish” doesn’t mean that God does not love those who don’t believe.