We all know the doctrine of 'free will' is not a biblical thing right?

[John tower]

This came up in a thread a day or two ago and was surprised by how many people were arguing for free will.

If you ever take this argument into a... 'collage level' discussion with someone without an ear for all things religious, they would quickly point out or just ask how can free will be a point discussed in the bible when it wasn't even a topic of contention till 600 years after Christ? In fact the bible never mentions this term. Rather the oppsite is true. in that the bible/Jesus and paul identifies us as slaves.

Furthermore the topic of Free will was the primary weapon used to disprove a omni-max God. In that we people can not have free will if God is Omni-max. (Omni-max meaning all-powerful loving strong, all knowing ect..) this argument is one of many, it is known as the epicurean paradox. Many of you have heard this before: Epicurus’s old questions are yet unanswered. Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?

The idea being if free will is choice then evil is the ultimate expression of free will, meaning if we had no choices other than what God has provided then everything we choose to do is God's will/without sin, if God is opposed to evil, then evil can not be God's will. However if God has given us free will then the evil i this world is also apart of God's will. hence free will is proved by the ability for us to commit evil acts yet God punishes us for working with in His will.

Now roll idea this into the what the paradox says.. These opposing ideas are what make the paradox of 'free will' impossible to the 6th century mind. in that on one hand God is powerless to stop evil, or as the paradox put's it melovent to evil, or He grants us the right to be evil no matter how you look at it the paradox has God breaking one of his omni-max attributes.

So according to this paradox, either God is not all powerful, can't stop evil.
Melovent won't stop evil.
or unjust/unrighteous, given us over to evil and then punishes us for being what he has created.

So how does a christian mind refute these ideas?
well one. we must recognise that Epurius' work was originally meant to describe his gods.. Not God/Christ. This paradox was written 300 years before Christ, and was a challenge to the greek God who do indeed claim to be omni max... Our God does not use those titles to describe himself. "we" attribute those titles to Him. He only ever called himself the alpha and omega and the beginning and the end. or "I am." More over, no where in the bible does God claim to be onmi-benolovent.

Yes God's love is endless, but it is not for everyone. Onmibenolvent God loves everyone to the max. John 3:16-18 explains this.. God so loved the world that he gave his only son that WHO SO EVER BELIEVES IN HIM... Shall not perish but have ever lasting life..17 God sent his Son into the world. He did not send him to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

There is a condition to God's boundless love. Which means His love is not extended to everyone. Just to those who 'believe.' That in of itself breaks the epicurean paradox. In that the God of the bible never claims to be 'all loving.' He only being the alpha and omega (meaning he can do whatever he wants) offers endless love to His people/Those who want freedom from sin. Which bring us to verse 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

In essence Jesus died to BUY those who believe from sin and evil. Why do i say buy? because the bible again never says we have free will, rather over and over and over again the bible even Christ describes us as slaves. We are slaves to sin or we elect to be slaves of God. and that is the only true choice we can 'freely' make.

"Oh but drich I choose what color car I have I choose where to eat lunch I choose who I married.. ect.. ect.." That is not free will. Those are examples of choices. true free will described 600 years ago is or was a thought experiment. it is not possible with or without God. for example let start by defining it now.
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1. 1.
   the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

(google dictionary)
So it is not about choosing what is available to you but the ability to obtain or act without restraint. eaning you can obtain what you will without obstruction.. Example:

Let's say you did choose what color car you got, but did you choose out of all the cars that ever was or ever will be? is the car you got the One car you always ever wanted? or was it the color you wanted in your price range? Did you even get all the options you wanted? did they make you get the undercoating you didn't want? did you choose THE car or A car that fit your life style/budget?
Did you eat lunch somewhere you could afford locally? or did you hope on a jet and flew to nyc because you wanted 2 slices of real pizza? Did you marry that rock start or movie star that you really really like?or did you marry some guy from the singles group over someone else in the singles group?

Life is a series of choices a or b all of which are determined by your lot/station in life. Like a slave even a chattel slave in colonial america they had choices they were given. some were even given a small salary that they could spend on whatever they wanted.. Some even saved up to buy their own wives.. but even from our collective perspective now we would not say those slaves where free just because they had a few choices they could make. So too are we to God. We are not free. We are all slaves to sin which is why John 3:18 says he need not judge us, as we are prejudged when we do not accept Christ. because atonement buys us from sin. If we don't elect to be bought then we are already on the path to destruction.

Christ himself tells us we are slaves to sin and for those who can not except this are disavowing the words of HIS FATHER, in favor for the words of their own father.. We must accept the words of Christ because the doctrine of 'free will' is poison and will keep us from ever knowing or even understanding God's truth.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1928750323842313/permalink/1929281893789156/

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

?????

Show me one place in the bible where it is even mentioned.
....

Again if free will is a biblically sound doctrine show me where the bible teaches it and explain why Christ and paul more over the whole book of romans teaches the opposite?

"For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned incense in it to gods that neither they nor their ancestors nor the kings of Judah ever knew, and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind." Jer 19:4-5

1) The only way humans could willingly commit an evil that God never commanded or mentioned was if they came up with it themselves or if it entered God's mind to implant the idea in them subconsciously or to constrain events so they must choose the evil.

2) If God constrains events so they will definitely choose an action He has predetermined, then every action of man first 'enters God's mind.'

3) If God implants an idea in a human's mind it must first enter His own.

Conclusion: Jer 19:4-5 is incompatible with God constrain man via any method to only choose what He has determined, and is incompatible with God verbally commanding one thing while planting contrary ideas in man.

"
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” Jn 6:28-29

1) If man could do nothing to do the work God requires, then Jesus lied in Jn 6:29

2) If man could not believe, then Jesus lied in Jn 6:29

3) Jesus, being God, cannot lie (Tit 1:2)

Conclusion: Jesus was telling the truth in Jn 6:29 that the humans could believe and thus 'do the work' that God requires [Though it should be noted, faith is NOT a work of personal righteousness or of the law. While God requires it, it is not merit of itself. It is God's gracious choice to grant salvation to the believer.]

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." Josh 24:25

If the Israelites had no real ability to 'choose,' this would be a nonsensical statement to make.

God, by His sovereign will, gave man the ability to choose whether to obey or disobey. (Deut 30:19, Josh 24:19-28, etc.) For salvation, man can either respond to the gospel in belief or refuse to believe it. (Mk 16:16) Man can still follow the laws of God written on their hearts (Rom 2:14-15.) I'm not sure why you think Romans contradicts free will, when the book upholds it!

Let's look at three concepts that are prevalent throughout scripture - repentance, choice, and 'to receive':

Repent: metanoéō (from metá, "changed after being with" and noiéō, "think") – to "think differently afterwards"

Repentance is a concept that supports free will, as it is about the human himself changing his mode of thinking and experiencing life change accordingly.

Choose is a fairly obvious one. God asks people to choose, His prophets ask people to choose, Jesus asks people to choose, etc. If mankind doesn't really have any choice at all, then this again is a meaningless command.

"Receive" is to take something offered, such as a gift (I Cor 4:7.) But it isn't passively sitting there while something is done to you - it is actively taking a gift with personal volition.

lambánō - to "actively lay hold of to take or receive," literally "accept with initiative."

A last passage (though there are many more!)

"Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow’s cause. “Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be eaten by the sword; for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.” (Is. 1:16-20)

 

[dqhall]

"Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow’s cause. “Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be eaten by the sword; for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.” (Is. 1:16-20)

Have you ever heard the wind gusting over a ridge 11,000 feet up, sitting in the dark not knowing whether it would turn one way or the next? Ever waited for an incoming hurricane proving all the prediction models wrong?

John 3:8 (WEB) The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don't know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

If you do not know where Christians are going, how can you think they have no freedom?

John 8:36 (WEB) If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

This is too funny!
Who was jesus speaking to? the pharisees? what was their response? why do we need to be set free we are sons of abraham we were never slaves!!! What did Jesus then say??
34 Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.
did you intentionally quote the very same passage i used in the OP to make this whole argument possible? or were you just lucky and set your self up for some humble pie?

Not only that... You missed the point I was making in the section you quoted.
Primarily There is NO Koine Greek word for servant. the word is doulos and it literally means slave/bond servant. it was not till modern times that the 2nd definition of servant was added because of the distaste for the word slave modern westerners have for the word. Go into an older lexicon and the word slave is the only meaning.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1401&t=NKJV
Why because one's willingness or unwillingness to serve has no bearing on the matter. what makes a doulos a slave, meaning the crux of the definition means to have your will subject to the want and will of another. Meaning your master's will comes first. whether you elected this get paid don't get paid those are all modern western concerns/defination of slavery. in the OT and the NT one thing matter, who's will came first.

When Christ Identifies us as slaves to sin He is saying the will of sin comes first.

save the victory lap/closing statement till you establish something. Otherwise you are just talking at people... none of this means doodly squat unless you can explain how it ties in to your point... Jesus himself hated the pharisees for puffing themselves up with many words in their prayers and sermons... If you can't take the time to explain something leave it out.

Ever waited for an incoming hurricane that was proving all the weather forecasting models were wrong?

John 3:8 (WEB) The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don't know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

If you do not know where Christians are going, why would you think they have no freedom?

John 8:36 (WEB) If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

 

[Anto9us]

Deu 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:



Jos 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[SkyWriting]

"Voluntary" sinning will keep multitudes from ever seeing heaven, ever.

Like your post?

 

[SkyWriting]

define free will sport.

Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Joshua 24:15
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

John 7:17
If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

(Good thing Paul did not offer this ice bucket challenge.)

John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Genesis 2:16-17
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

James 1:13-16
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.

Romans 10:9-10
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Proverbs 16:1
The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.

2 Timothy 2:26
And they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.


What Does the Bible Say About Free Will? - OpenBible.info

 

[Ken Rank]

This came up in a thread a day or two ago and was surprised by how many people were arguing for free will.

If you ever take this argument into a... 'collage level' discussion with someone without an ear for all things religious, they would quickly point out or just ask how can free will be a point discussed in the bible when it wasn't even a topic of contention till 600 years after Christ? In fact the bible never mentions this term. Rather the oppsite is true. in that the bible/Jesus and paul identifies us as slaves.

Furthermore the topic of Free will was the primary weapon used to disprove a omni-max God. In that we people can not have free will if God is Omni-max. (Omni-max meaning all-powerful loving strong, all knowing ect..) this argument is one of many, it is known as the epicurean paradox. Many of you have heard this before: Epicurus’s old questions are yet unanswered. Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?

The idea being if free will is choice then evil is the ultimate expression of free will, meaning if we had no choices other than what God has provided then everything we choose to do is God's will/without sin, if God is opposed to evil, then evil can not be God's will. However if God has given us free will then the evil i this world is also apart of God's will. hence free will is proved by the ability for us to commit evil acts yet God punishes us for working with in His will.

Now roll idea this into the what the paradox says.. These opposing ideas are what make the paradox of 'free will' impossible to the 6th century mind. in that on one hand God is powerless to stop evil, or as the paradox put's it melovent to evil, or He grants us the right to be evil no matter how you look at it the paradox has God breaking one of his omni-max attributes.

So according to this paradox, either God is not all powerful, can't stop evil.
Melovent won't stop evil.
or unjust/unrighteous, given us over to evil and then punishes us for being what he has created.

So how does a christian mind refute these ideas?
well one. we must recognise that Epurius' work was originally meant to describe his gods.. Not God/Christ. This paradox was written 300 years before Christ, and was a challenge to the greek God who do indeed claim to be omni max... Our God does not use those titles to describe himself. "we" attribute those titles to Him. He only ever called himself the alpha and omega and the beginning and the end. or "I am." More over, no where in the bible does God claim to be onmi-benolovent.

Yes God's love is endless, but it is not for everyone. Onmibenolvent God loves everyone to the max. John 3:16-18 explains this.. God so loved the world that he gave his only son that WHO SO EVER BELIEVES IN HIM... Shall not perish but have ever lasting life..17 God sent his Son into the world. He did not send him to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

There is a condition to God's boundless love. Which means His love is not extended to everyone. Just to those who 'believe.' That in of itself breaks the epicurean paradox. In that the God of the bible never claims to be 'all loving.' He only being the alpha and omega (meaning he can do whatever he wants) offers endless love to His people/Those who want freedom from sin. Which bring us to verse 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

In essence Jesus died to BUY those who believe from sin and evil. Why do i say buy? because the bible again never says we have free will, rather over and over and over again the bible even Christ describes us as slaves. We are slaves to sin or we elect to be slaves of God. and that is the only true choice we can 'freely' make.

"Oh but drich I choose what color car I have I choose where to eat lunch I choose who I married.. ect.. ect.." That is not free will. Those are examples of choices. true free will described 600 years ago is or was a thought experiment. it is not possible with or without God. for example let start by defining it now.
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1. 1.
   the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

(google dictionary)
So it is not about choosing what is available to you but the ability to obtain or act without restraint. eaning you can obtain what you will without obstruction.. Example:

Let's say you did choose what color car you got, but did you choose out of all the cars that ever was or ever will be? is the car you got the One car you always ever wanted? or was it the color you wanted in your price range? Did you even get all the options you wanted? did they make you get the undercoating you didn't want? did you choose THE car or A car that fit your life style/budget?
Did you eat lunch somewhere you could afford locally? or did you hope on a jet and flew to nyc because you wanted 2 slices of real pizza? Did you marry that rock start or movie star that you really really like?or did you marry some guy from the singles group over someone else in the singles group?

Life is a series of choices a or b all of which are determined by your lot/station in life. Like a slave even a chattel slave in colonial america they had choices they were given. some were even given a small salary that they could spend on whatever they wanted.. Some even saved up to buy their own wives.. but even from our collective perspective now we would not say those slaves where free just because they had a few choices they could make. So too are we to God. We are not free. We are all slaves to sin which is why John 3:18 says he need not judge us, as we are prejudged when we do not accept Christ. because atonement buys us from sin. If we don't elect to be bought then we are already on the path to destruction.

Christ himself tells us we are slaves to sin and for those who can not except this are disavowing the words of HIS FATHER, in favor for the words of their own father.. We must accept the words of Christ because the doctrine of 'free will' is poison and will keep us from ever knowing or even understanding God's truth.

You talk about a college level discussion but all you have done is the same thing you claim others are doing who don't take it to the college level. You have seen (I am assuming) all of the evidence and then chose one side over the other without exploring the possibility that both sides are correct. (GASP) You see, the bible uses words like predestination, foreordained, and so forth. We serve a God who exists outside of time and can see the end from the beginning and vice-versa. Yet we also serve a God who set before us life and death, blessing and cursing and then told us to CHOOSE LIFE. Choice.... the words are there just as predestination is there. So the "College level" thing to do, drich, isn't to pick one over the other... it is to wait on God to bring you to the point where you can reconcile the fact that BOTH do appear in Scripture. I firmly believe both exist in Scripture and have no issue with that... can you get to that place instead of drawing a line between you and other brothers in Christ who chose the other side of the coin that you did?

 

[drich0150]

The reason a mature Christian does not sin, so is not a slave to sin, is because of the Holy Spirit. 1 John 3:9 says Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

scrap book theology.. You know when I post a passage it usually contains several verses or paragraphs, why? because those verses are all contextualized with in a chapter or even book. meaning what I teach is an idea that one of the writers wanted to actually make. When ever on sees 1/2 a verse or maybe just one verse with no contextual lead in or lead out it usually means you are intentionally stripping context to add your own commentary. meaning you take one sentence out of the bible make it stand alone so you can add your own meaning to it.. For instance here is something else john said in 1 john:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 But if we confess our sins, God will forgive us. We can trust God to do this. He always does what is right. He will make us clean from all the wrong things we have done. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we are saying that God is a liar and that we don’t accept his true teaching. Now couple that with what Paul says in Romans 7 (really need to read the whole chapter but this will make the point)
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good.17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

So ten how do we reconcile 1john 1:8 and above romans passage? Paul tells us here in the rest of 7:
21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

This is the reason, even though Mary, a human being, was the mother of Jesus and had a sin nature, herself, Jesus did not sin. Why? Because from conception He had the Seed of the Father in Him. Those who have been baptized with the Holy Spirit have the same SEED in them. The Holy Spirit plants the fruit of the Spirit in us, and John 15 tells us of the pruning process Jesus takes us through. The mature Christian is a son or daughter of God.

Again... do you not see the difference in the way i make a biblical statement and the way you do? there literally is one stand alone verse taken out of context that is supposed to be holding everything you said together. I on the other hand just used 1/2 a chapter in romans and several verses in 1john to refute everything you said here. Why? because that way you and everyone else knows it is not me who is speaking. it is not me to whom you are arguing. these are well define articles laid out in scripture. again look at your biblical support. you found one line and had to take it out of context and I refuted that with 1/2 a chapter in romans and several contextually cohesive passages from the same 1 john you quoted from.

If you were represent the bible accurately would you be able to post more from the bible? as it sits your posts are 98% speculation and religious conjecture (what religion says about God) and everything I post is setting up around volumes of verses. or what the bible has to actualy say about God.

So let me ask again what is more important to you? what the bible says? or what religion says? who do you worship The God of the bible of the god of religion?

 

[drich0150]

If God is all-powerful loving strong, all knowing ect.., then He can do anything, including allowing us the gift of free will. If He is unable to do that, then He is not all-powerful.

Yes he could.. but why would he want that if he were looking for slaves/servants?

 

[1stcenturylady]

scrap book theology.. You know when I post a passage it usually contains several verses or paragraphs, why? because those verses are all contextualized with in a chapter or even book. meaning what I teach is an idea that one of the writers wanted to actually make. When ever on sees 1/2 a verse or maybe just one verse with no contextual lead in or lead out it usually means you are intentionally stripping context to add your own commentary. meaning you take one sentence out of the bible make it stand alone so you can add your own meaning to it.. For instance here is something else john said in 1 john:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 But if we confess our sins, God will forgive us. We can trust God to do this. He always does what is right. He will make us clean from all the wrong things we have done. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we are saying that God is a liar and that we don’t accept his true teaching. Now couple that with what Paul says in Romans 7 (really need to read the whole chapter but this will make the point)
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good.17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

So ten how do we reconcile 1john 1:8 and above romans passage? Paul tells us here in the rest of 7:
21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.


Again... do you not see the difference in the way i make a biblical statement and the way you do? there literally is one stand alone verse taken out of context that is supposed to be holding everything you said together. I on the other hand just used 1/2 a chapter in romans and several verses in 1john to refute everything you said here. Why? because that way you and everyone else knows it is not me who is speaking. it is not me to whom you are arguing. these are well define articles laid out in scripture. again look at your biblical support. you found one line and had to take it out of context and I refuted that with 1/2 a chapter in romans and several contextually cohesive passages from the same 1 john you quoted from.

If you were represent the bible accurately would you be able to post more from the bible? as it sits your posts are 98% speculation and religious conjecture (what religion says about God) and everything I post is setting up around volumes of verses. or what the bible has to actualy say about God.

So let me ask again what is more important to you? what the bible says? or what religion says? who do you worship The God of the bible of the god of religion?

You can quote scripture all day, but if you quote it out of context you can make it say anything you want with many words like you have. Pure ignorance, and Reformation twisting of scripture and blindness, resulting in a dead message.

Romans 7
Romans 7 needs to start at verse 7, NEVER 14, and end in the next chapter at verse 9. The way you present it has the Holy Spirit powerless. You even have 1 John 1:8 as a Christian, the same as you do Romans 7. ROFL Everyone who starts out of context, makes the mistake of only seeing: Sin rules me as if I were its slave. It is like they are looking for an excuse to be like the world. Romans 7 is the culmination of Paul's teaching on THE LAW. He ends the teaching with a question he then answers, who can save someone of being a slave to sin and being under the law? JESUS. 1 John 3:5 says "for He (Jesus) was manifested to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin." So if you are still a slave to sin, you don't have Jesus. 1 John 3:8-9 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Chapter 8 is part of the context of 7 and cannot be ignored. Pauls teaching on the LAW takes us to its contrast - the Spirit. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

1 John 1:8
Since Adam sinned, we have all inherited the fallen sin nature. Everyone. So no one can say they have never sinned. Even those before Christ who had the Ten Commandments sinned, because of the 10th commandment, the only commandment of the heart - coveting. All the rest of the commandments they could easily say they never committed just by never murdering anyone, etc. 1 John 1:8 is such a person. They don't have Christ, and have never repented. So they still have the sin nature that will be taken away only by Christ. So for them to say they don't sin makes them a liar, for God says of everyone who ever lived "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Verse 8 has to be in context with verse 9. "But if you confess your sin, he is faithful and just to forgive you your sin, and to cleanse you of ALL unrighteousness." This is how one comes to Christ in the first place! Repentance from sin. This is why John the Baptist had to come FIRST. He preached repentance, and making the road straight for coming to the Messiah. Acts 2:38 says to Repent...and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So now that you have had all your sins taken away, and have the Holy Spirit that prevents you from sinning willfully, are you a sinner any longer? NO! So just remember 1 John 1:8 is not speaking of a Christian, but one prior to becoming a Christian, because only through Christ are sins taken away. What I find hilarious, but disturbing of their ignorance, are pastors who use this verse regarding Spirit-filled Christians.Don't they know John is talking to his whole congregation? Some there will be new and are still searching. And there are other reasons I won't go into deeply except to mention the Semitic style of writing shows this verse is one representing those still in "darkness." As is 6 and 10. From verse 5, every other verse is a contrast between light and darkness.

5 - light
6 - darkness
7 - light
8 - darkness
9 - light
10 - darkness

1 John 3:9
The Greek word for commit sin in this verse means one time, not "continuing in" or "practicing" as some would want you to believe. This type of sin is talked of next.

1 John 1:7
Here we have someone walking in the light or Holy Spirit, and they have fellowship with one another (with God), and the blood of Jesus cleanses them from all sin. So what type of sins does one commit while walking in the light? Seems a contradiction doesn't it? Especially when 1 John 3:9 says we cannot sin. Well, in God's eyes there are two types of sin. (Don't let anyone tell you "sin is sin," another statement born of ignorance of the Old Testament.) There are willful sins that you know are sins and you want to do them anyway - rebellion against God (which is the kind 3:9 is speaking of, and Hebrews 10:26) Sexual willful sin is the most powerful and the reason so much is spoken against it. The other type of sin is unintentional sins, that you don't even know about. God looks at the heart, and motives. These unintentional sins are called transgressions or trespasses. Leviticus 5:15 "If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally..." They have to do with maturity and the fruit of the Spirit, which the Lord prunes John 15:1-8. We even see in the same book in the last chapter that there are these two types of sins, "sins unto death," and "sins NOT unto death." 1 John 5:16-17 Willful sins are sins unto death. Transgressions are sins not unto death. In the Lord's Prayer we don't ask to be forgiven for our sins unto death, as we forgive others their sins unto death they commit against us. No, we won't be committing them in the first place, because of the Seed of the Father in us - 1 John 3:9. It says, "and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." These we will commit, but less and less as we grow in the Spirit. From glory to glory. Look at Numbers 15:22-36. There was a sacrifice for unintentional sins, but there was no sacrifice for willful/presumptuous sins - they killed them. So as far as sins not imputed - 1 John 1:7 says these unintentional sins we don't even know about are continually being cleansed even though they missed the mark and are called sins. And when we first come to Christ, all our WILLFUL sins of the past are forgiven and not imputed against us. Jesus then gives you His own Spirit that creates a new nature in us that doesn't want to sin. (Another false doctrine is that instead of only our past willful sins being forgiven, they say willful present and future sins are also forgiven {they commonly say, our "past, present and future sins are forgiven"}. That is not in the Bible.) How can we who are dead to sin, sin presently or in the future? Sin no longer has power over you to feed its lusts, and as such, as you walk in the Spirit you are no longer under the law. For through the law is the knowledge of sin. If you aren't committing sin, then you aren't under the law. In no way does it mean that Jesus died so we can commit sin with no punishment. Paul squashed that notion by saying the wages of sin is still death. So choose either righteousness, or sin. Which one will be your master. Romans 6.

You have a lot of false pride, but don't let this post go right over your head too and be foolishness to you. Obviously, you know nothing of the power of the Holy Spirit, and can't relate to it. You really need the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It then will be very clear to you when you no longer have to struggle with the draw of sin like the unsaved who are still a slave to sin.

 

[drich0150]

<dr01>Is this one of those chat bots? you know you enter a paragraph and it spits out jibberish that somewhat kind ties in just enough to sucker you ito going back and forth with it?
If not can you take a page or two and explain what any of this has to do with Christianity, then another page on how it applies to what I said then another page if you need it to explain away what Jesus said?<end>
"Gibberish" is spelled with a "g." What does this have to do with Christianity? When Paul wrote his second epistle to Timothy the only scriptures which existed at that time was the Old Testament.

2 Timothy 3:16
(16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
Romans 15:4
(4) For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.​

My post addresses man's free will and agency. I even highlighted the words "will" so the reader cannot miss them. Perhaps if I made the font size larger that would help you.

I've seen it both ways..

That said I was asking for a correlation between the 'jibberish' and the subject matter.. the post look like a verse dump. where someone google or did a bible search on the subject and just cut and pasted everything that came up... With nothing connecting the information provided with how it relates to the topic.

 

[drich0150]

You do not have to agree.
People without free will may never agree.
They also will not get to heaven.

what the math are you talking about? i asked for a definition of free will because you don't seem to be caught up with how the discussion is framed out. what does what you said have to do with anything?

 

[drich0150]

Some slaves of a master may freely choose to be free, while other slaves freely choose to remain slaves. Being a slave, therefore, does not hinder their voluntary choice (libertarian free will) to be free or not free.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-free-will/

http://reknew.org/2014/08/where-is-human-free-will-in-the-bible/

are you trolling me???

I have no idea what your comment and links have to do with the portion you quoted. can you take some time and explain what you are arguing and how it relates to the topic?

 

[Der Alte]

I've seen it both ways..
That said I was asking for a correlation between the 'jibberish' and the subject matter.. the post look like a verse dump. where someone google or did a bible search on the subject and just cut and pasted everything that came up... With nothing connecting the information provided with how it relates to the topic.

Had you bothered to actually read my post you would have seen there was a paragraph at the beginning explaining the purpose of the scripture I posted and a sentence at the end summarizing.
.....Everything in my previous post was my own effort. I accidentally found that passage while I was looking for the context of of a proof text someone tossed at me.

 

[Eloy Craft]

14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good.17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

If we weren't by nature free we wouldn't be able to call ourselves slaves

 

[bling]

Everyone agrees that we do not have the free will to fly around the room by our own power, so we are limited in our choices. We can be extremely limited by our physical and environmental condition, but could every mature adult mentally make just one free will choice outside of these limitations and thus be a choice of his own discretion? AGAIN... Would this be true if a literal 1820's georgia slave could only make ONE choice outside of his limitations would he truly have free will?
Would He be any less of a slave?

We like a slave have been given ONE choice to make. Again John 8 Jesus' own words on the subject tell us No we are slaves, and if you can not accept this then you do not know the words of the Father/God, that you listen to your own father satan.

Again why do you argue with what Christ Himself has to say here? do you not trust your own eyes when I post the passage?
Again I purposely did not personally define the word but sourced an official source. Lest you have sway at google your input has little meaning in this conversation. Why? because you are defaulting to a strawman fallacy. you are changing the terms of the argument so as to be able to argue something you feel you can win.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Not only that you are describing a completely different concept of free thought. one can be a slave and have free thought. Daniel was a good example of this. Literally held as a slave but worshiped God apart from what he was commanded to do.

Do you mean God is limited to what He will do with a slave of satan? YES!!! That is the point Jesus making in John 8! which is why it is important for us to know and accept our roles.
otherwise we could live a whole life and never once hear from God... Why do you think so many of us are unsure in our eternal status? Because God has never assured them of it. YES God will literally reach out in one form or another.. IF you are his... which you can not be if you do not first accept who you are. which is why so many are limited by what they know of God.

Can a slave not like emptying the chamber pots yet still do it and still be a slave? Can a slave hate shoveling out the stables and do it and still remain a slave.. again you are arguing God's precept not mine!

Paul in romans 7 answers you question for you!!!
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good.17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

Do you see your answer staring at you from the passage you quoted me? If 'free will' was a thing a biblical thing, why would paul say this? why is their a struggle with in him? why does he call himself a slave to sin? why is there conflict? should he be able to will himself free? if the man who wrote 2/3 of the NT and in full contact with God, can not free himself from this bondage how have you done it?

did you even read the op?

God granted them one real choice as He did with us. (even though Adam's lot was about choosing names for everything) but only one real choice that matters.

again already spelled out in the OP


Is this just a general closing statement? I don't understand where you are going or wha you are asking as it does not seem to relate to anything said here topically.. with the prodigal it was his choice to leave and spend the money, but it was the father's choice to give it to him in advance of his death. It was the son's choice to return to work as a slave for his father. it was his father's choice to invite him back as a son. the rest of what you said... lost me.

I've said like 100 times we've been given a singular choice to make. but a singular choice does not equal free will. again slaves are given true singular choices, but it makes them o less a slave.

I think you are argue the fact we are not “freemen” since we are all slaves to someone (God or satan).

Yet, having a free will to make even one autonomous free will choice means God has gifted you with limited free will.

You said:

If 'free will' was a thing a biblical thing, why would paul say this? why is their a struggle with in him? why does he call himself a slave to sin? why is there conflict? should he be able to will himself free? if the man who wrote 2/3 of the NT and in full contact with God, can not free himself from this bondage how have you done it?

Choices can be struggles since it is not automatic and up to you with likely alternatives. If there were no likely alternatives (like the perceived pleasures of sin) it would not be a real choice.

Paul’s choice was never “free himself from this bondage” the choice Paul and all of us today can make is “Accept or reject God’s help”. God frees us and not we ourselves. People do not like accepting God’s help, because it is very humbling to accept pure sacrificial charity and people have pride (even if it is a false pride).

 

[bling]

Yes he could.. but why would he want that if he were looking for slaves/servants?

Gal. 4: 1What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces[a] of the world. 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,[c] Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

 

[drich0150]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1928750323842313/permalink/1929281893789156/

??? I dont understand

 

[drich0150]

"For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned incense in it to gods that neither they nor their ancestors nor the kings of Judah ever knew, and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind." Jer 19:4-5

I asked you to show me the doctrine of free will in the bible... you cant. However I have shown you Christ's own words that tells us we are slaves to sin or we are slaves to Him... YOU ARE FIGHTING A TEACHING OF CHRIST. He Even goes so far to say if you can not except this (what my father/God has revealed to me) it is because you listen to your Father Satan...

Before you explain anything else please explain how your mind ignores this. what in you makes you want to say.. hmm that drich must be lying about what Jesus said so it is well with me to go literally against a teaching of Jesus who was given this info by God the Father...

Do you need me to post the passage in John 8 again?

1) The only way humans could willingly commit an evil that God never commanded or mentioned was if they came up with it themselves or if it entered God's mind to implant the idea in them subconsciously or to constrain events so they must choose the evil.

Define free will.. Now define it as I have for the purpose of this discussion in the OP... why doesn't your defination fit mine/The dictionary?

This is a straw man fallacy. You can't legitimately argue what is on page so you make changes to the definition of certain words, and now you argue that.

2) If God constrains events so they will definitely choose an action He has predetermined, then every action of man first 'enters God's mind.'

3) If God implants an idea in a human's mind it must first enter His own.

Conclusion: Jer 19:4-5 is incompatible with God constrain man via any method to only choose what He has determined, and is incompatible with God verbally commanding one thing while planting contrary ideas in man.

Again none of this fits the dictionary definition of free will. This whole line of thought is flawed. why? because you assume the opposite of free will is predestination. Only a close mind would simply start arguing something he does not understand. You are dredging up old anti calvinist argument thinking we are coming from the same pov..

Again my work here has nothing to do with calvin or predestination.

It is a lot simpler than that. The opposite of free will according to the dictionary definition and Christ Himself is not predestination but slavery. in that you will is secondary to the one you serve.. Now please read this next bit and try and understand it. Now, just because a slave is given one or two real choices to make in his or her life... does it mean they are free? does it mean they have free will? no they are still slaves. they've just been given the ablity to choose certain things.

That is what is going on in your OT passage, and what you are struggling to describe in the rest of your post. How can I say this? because again as the op outlines God told Christ, Christ told the pharisees this very thing! Again you are not arguing me here.

 

[drich0150]

Have you ever heard the wind gusting over a ridge 11,000 feet up, sitting in the dark not knowing whether it would turn one way or the next? Ever waited for an incoming hurricane proving all the prediction models wrong?

I have.. been through 9 matter of fact including katrina. I lived in the state they said it would not hit but did (4 times in one year) and several times in a state it was supposed to hit but did not.

Do you want to know the secret of making it though? simply do what you are supposed to do, and don't prepare based on what other say.

John 3:8 (WEB) The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don't know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

You assume wrongly. I am no nicodemus. for I have been born of the Spirit and am apart of that wind, which is why so many of you don't know where I am going.

If you do not know where Christians are going, how can you think they have no freedom?

You can't even quote me properly.

I literally cut and pasted the words of Christ which says:
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

33 They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”

34 Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.35 A slave does not stay with a family forever. But a son belongs to the family forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you are really free. 37 I know you are Abraham’s descendants. But you want to kill me, because you don’t want to accept my teaching. 38 I am telling you what my Father has shown me. But you do what your father has told you.”

John 8:36 (WEB) If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

sorry sport that one is working for me.
see above.

The problem you guys are having is you are trying to corn hole this topic into something you've done before. none of you are speaking to point I've actually made. you all are assigning me a position I am supposed to take in a stereotypical calvinist argument. That is not what is going on here. this is something new. It's great that we have those who are gifted to think they can answers in sagely tone and words, but none of this help if it does not speak topically.

maybe cut and paste a quote then drop your sagely wisdom then explain it otherwise you have me butchering it trying to figure out what it is you are trying to say.