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Featured Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by bcbsr, May 27, 2019.

  1. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Thanks for confirming the various things I've been saying that salvation-by-works Christians believe. The "initial" versus "final" salvation concept is an example of that which had not been well thought out. For what is a person saved from but from eternal condemnation. A person who was hypothetically "initally" saved from eternal condemnation cannot say that he has been saved, if in fact he ends up "finally" not being saved. (Note the rhetoric of Eph 2:8,9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.") This rhetoric does not match your theology as logically according to your theology a person can only say "I have the possibility of being saved, if I'm good enough in the end". That's the same mentality of the viewpoint Paul was opposing. The person is not putting his trust in God to save him, but rather trusting in himself to qualify himself to be saved.
    And this is also what I've been saying about salvation by works Christians, they confuse Old Covenant concepts with the New Covenant concepts. They essentially think it's still justification by law, but simply by a different law. And many of them simply construct their new law by cherry picking from the law of Moses.
    There you go misconstruing all kinds of verses. I already spoke of the Luke 10 passage (which is also the Mt 19 passage) as an example of confusing Old Covenant with New. As for 1John 1:7 you again confuse cause and effect. It's describing the behavior of those who are in Christ. You read it as a work to cause you to become saved. And you read 1John 3:23 which says And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. and simply append it with "in order to be saved", which isn't actually there. Again that was covered in the OP 2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Heb 5:9 "to all who obey him". As I pointed out, those who are in Christ characteristically do obey him. Jesus said, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me" John 10:27 That's simply a truism. They listen and follow because they are his sheep. Those who disguise themselves wearing sheep clothing find it's not natural to listen and follow him. But the real sheep do.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  2. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    If you're interested in my view of 1John I've developed two sets of study guides you can view, one more technical than the other.
    1John Bible Study Guides
    1John Sunday School Class Lessons
     
  3. Shimokita

    Shimokita Well-Known Member

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    Why is that? Because at the moment of his conversion God strips him of his free will and turns him into an automaton without a choice?

    Why does Sacred Scripture contain so many warnings about Christians falling away if falling away is in fact impossible for a Christian?

    Just for kicks?

    He sees you friend. There is not one verse in Sacred Scripture that teaches that our Lord’s own personal righteousness is imputed to a believer. That idea is a tradition of men found nowhere in the Bible.

    And such a thing defies logic. If God saw our Lord when you approached him, you would be entitled to all of the same rewards that our Lord is entitled to, and both you and I know that ain’t happening. There is only room for one person seated at the right hand of the Father, and it ain’t gonna be you.
     
  4. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    It's too bad 2 Corinthians 5 and Hebrews 4 isn't in the bible.

    I wonder why Jacob dressed up as Esau to obtain the birth right?

    :D

    What does John 10:28 mean? And, know, I do not believe in "individual" election... so... :p
     
  5. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi GD,
    I don't understand what a true believer is.
    One either believes or does not believe.

    If they believe, then they will obey and they're saved.

    If they do not believe, then they don't have to obey and they are not saved.

    There's no in-between. One is either saved or not.

    Aren't the Christians in the N.T. true believers?
    Why does Jesus and Paul and the others give them specific instructions as to how to live and behave?

    Jesus never said one time that I can think of....
    "If you are saved you'll go to be with God".
    OR the opposite.

    He always spoke about DOING things to get into heaven.

    What do you make of that?
     
  6. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How can anyone dare to state how any one of us feels toward God or to state what type of rapport we have with Him?

    It's like me calling the faith only persons lazy and not lovers of God...that would merit a reported post...
    shouldn't theirs?

    We can judge the actions of a person,,,
    but we cannot judge their soul...
    especially when I hear that it's those that want to please God that are going straight to hell.

    While the ones who do not want to "help" Jesus seem to feel they're the saved ones.

    The world is surely becoming the opposite of reality.
     
  7. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    The work of God, as answered by Jesus Christ is To Believe in the One He Sent.

    Is this not spoken by our Lord God, Jesus Christ?

    Didn't Jesus promise this to us? John 5:24

    Is the Parable of the Sower wrong?

    Can I buy a stairway to heaven?
     
  8. Shimokita

    Shimokita Well-Known Member

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    Nothing here teaches that our Lord’s own personal righteousness is imputed to a believer.

    It means that Jesus will give eternal life to people who believe in him and follow him. Keep doing that friend, and you’ll be good to go. Stop doing that and you have a problem.
     
  9. James Murphy

    James Murphy LCMS Lutheran

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    I'll ask the lady who knows all that glitters is gold :p
     
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  10. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Galatians 3:27 ; 1 Peter 3:18 ; Ephesians 6:10-18 ; 2 Corinthians 5:21

    How do you not know these promises!?!

    Why would the most trustworthy Friend I've ever had not be Believed in/Trusted by me? There will never be a reason.
     
  11. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Job 13:13-21
    13 Hold your peace, let me alone, that Ani (I) may speak, and let come on me what will.
    14 Why do I take my basar in my teeth, and take my nefesh in mine yad?
    15Though He slay me, yet will I wait for and trust in Him; but I will maintain my derech before Him.
    16 He also shall be my Yeshuah (salvation); for a chanef (irreligious man, hypocrite) shall not come before Him.
    17 Hear diligently my confession, and my declaration with your oznayim.
    18 Hinei now, I have prepared my mishpat (cause, case); I know that I shall be acquitted.
    19 Who is he that can contend against me? For atah (now), if I hold my tongue, I shall expire.
    20 Only do not shtayim (two things) unto me; then will I not hide myself from Thee.
    21 Withdraw Thine hand far from me, and let not Thy eimah (dread, terror) make me afraid.
     
  12. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes. I have one in my record collection...but it's not for sale!

    John 5:24
    What is there to believe?
    What does believing in Christ mean to you?
    We are certainly to believe in Christ,,,but not with our mind...in every way.

    Jesus spent over 3 years preaching and teaching...what did He teach?
    John 8:31 We are to abide in HIS word. What was His word?

    John 14:21, 23, 24
    21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
    22Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?”
    23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
    24“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.


    Apparently Jesus did leave us commands.
    Some are in Mathew 5, some are in Mathew 25....I could list many, many of them.
    Here are just a few:

    1. Do not say you have fellowship with God but walk in the dark...you will be lying.
    2. Walk in the light as He is in the light.
    3. Confess your sins.
    4. Do not think you have no sin.
    5. Keep His commandments.
    6. If you do not keep His commandments, you are a liar.
    7. Be perfected.
    8. Walk in the same manner as Jesus walked.
    9. The one who says he is in the light but hates his brother is in the darkness.
    10. Love your brother and abide in the light.
    11. Do not let the darkness blind your eyes.
    12. Overcome the evil one.
    13. Come to know God.
    14. Do not love the world.
    15. Do the will of the Father so you can live forever.

    The above covers 1 John 1:1 to 2:16
    and there are still 3 1/2 chapters.





     
  13. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24
     
  14. Shimokita

    Shimokita Well-Known Member

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    Friend, I have read the entire New Testament many times. That is why I know there is not a single verse that teaches that our Lord’s own personal righteousness is imputed to a believer. You still have not provided one verse that teaches that, try as you may.

    Friend, you still sin, do you not? Every time you sin it shows your lack of belief and trust. If you want to know the reasons why you could fall away, find the reasons why you sin.
     
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  15. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Brother I've read the Scripture of the WORD, myself and John 5:39-40 is the summation.

    Only ONE (1 John 2:27) can show you the "Foolishness" (1 Corinthians 1:18) I speak of. (Matthew 23:8-10)
     
  16. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not one word in the bible about our salvation is untrue.

    I've been through this before with you, but for the benefit of those reading along.

    BELIEVE. What does BELIEVE mean?
    Even the devil believes and yet he is not saved.

    It says believed....not saved, as I asked for.
    The reason for this is that Jesus did not talk about BEING SAVED. He talked about what we believers in God are TO DO.
    James 1:22

    BELIEF is an action.
    If we believe, we move into action based on that belief. We follow Jesus, we are His disciples, we do as HE taught us to do and to be.

    Here, once again, is what believe means:

    Commitment of the Will
    The will of a person needs to be engaged to follow through and implement their belief into action. Belief needs to go from the mind through the heart and activate the will to take hold of what has been understood and responded to, and make it part of one's life. This then in its outworking, becomes obedience to the 'Word'. The scriptures speak of "obedience to the faith" (Romans 1: 5), this is where faith has had its complete outworking.

    "The revelation of the mystery..... .... is made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" Romans 16:25,26

    source: Hebrew Roots/The original foundation/Faith - Wikibooks, open books for an open world
     
  17. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    And for the reader... again... I will like what you have said... I want to say that The Work of Belief is "Initial Belief"... He responds and supplies all the rest (Romans 8:9)(John 16:13...)

    He draws us from Faith to Faith. (Romans 1:17)

    I again say... It is by HIM ALONE

    Faith Alone
    Jesus Alone
    Grace Alone
    Love Alone
     
  18. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    We fail, He doesn't. When we are weak, He is strong. We don't "Help Him" Save us. We respond to His Salvation. I will not take one drop of Glory away from Him.

    If obedience saves us, past Belief of the Gospel, Jesus died for nought and the Old Covenant is sufficient.
     
  19. Shimokita

    Shimokita Well-Known Member

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  20. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Good Evening Sibling in Him. All blessings in Christ to you.
     
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