Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

GodsGrace101

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And for the reader... again... I will like what you have said... I want to say that The Work of Belief is "Initial Belief"... He responds and supplies all the rest (Romans 8:9)(John 16:13...)

He draws us from Faith to Faith. (Romans 1:17)

I again say... It is by HIM ALONE

Faith Alone
Jesus Alone
Grace Alone
Love Alone
Here's the problem I see GD.
I know you have a right relationship with God.
Are you aware that there are posters on these forums that state that they can live as they want to and still be saved because they're under the blood?

So, as much as I understand your love for God and know you're living for him...I fear for those that do not and I know they're living under a false sense of security and I truly believe their very soul is in danger.

Because your way sounds so simple...
JUST believe.

This is good because I know if we believe we will also obey...but to some it sounds like they believe and then just continue as they were when we're specifically told to transform our minds and that the Holy Spirit will transform us and guide us.

So if there is no transformation?
The Early Fathers spoke a lot about good works/deeds. Today we don't hear too much about this and this bothers me.

Not because I'm a legalist and believe following every commandment will save me, but because it would teach Christianity as it was back when Jesus had just ascended. It would teach Christianity as a true life-style.

And isn't this what Jesus came to do?
To establish the Kingdom of God on earth?
Mathew 3:17

All Jesus did was speak about the Kingdom of God and how to be members of it,,,here on earth and to be continued in heaven. He desired to change the world. The Great Commission...
 
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GodsGrace101

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We fail, He doesn't. When we are weak, He is strong. We don't "Help Him" Save us. We respond to His Salvation. I will not take one drop of Glory away from Him.

If obedience saves us, past Belief of the Gospel, Jesus died for nought and the Old Covenant is sufficient.
What do you mean by:
If obedience saves us, past Belief of the Gospel,
 
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Here's the problem I see GD.
Because your way sounds so simple...
JUST believe.

Sister... and I'm fairly certain I can say Sister, safely... Please forgive me if I'm wrong...

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.
4 My speech and my proclamation were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and power,
5 so that your faith might not be based on men's wisdom but on God's power.


 
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Grip Docility

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What do you mean by:
If obedience saves us, past Belief of the Gospel,

Isaiah 43:11 / Luke 2:11/Acts 16:30-31 and in respects to Acts 16:30-31 .... does it get any more "early church" than that?

Acts 16:30 Then he escorted them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household."

We are the Saved... He is the Savior.....

There is no other Name that Saves us. (Yeshua/Jesus/YeHoshua)
 
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GodsGrace101

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Sister... and I'm fairly certain I can say Sister, safely... Please forgive me if I'm wrong...

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.
4 My speech and my proclamation were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and power,
5 so that your faith might not be based on men's wisdom but on God's power.
Yes my brother...
If only all were like you.
 
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Yes my brother...
If only all were like you.

And as well, to you, Sister.

All Love in our Lord of lords, King of kings and Hope to the hopeless, Jesus Christ, the Son of God His Father and imparter of His Holy Spirit, to you, GodsGrace101
 
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GodsGrace101

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Isaiah 43:11 / Luke 2:11/Acts 16:30-31 and in respects to Acts 16:30-31 .... does it get any more "early church" than that?

Acts 16:30 Then he escorted them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household."

We are the Saved... He is the Savior.....

There is no other Name that Saves us. (Yeshua/Jesus/YeHoshua)
I post Acts 16 many times.
I agree....let me just say that we are to be good disciples of Jesus and follow His teachings.

That should be all that needs to be said...
But, alas, I do hear strange things on these forms.
 
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I post Acts 16 many times.
I agree....let me just say that we are to be good disciples of Jesus and follow His teachings.

That should be all that needs to be said...
But, alas, I do hear strange things on these forms.

He is my Idol, after all. :D
 
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BNR32FAN

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The very same Reason He never got to speak this to the one that was missing. 30 pieces of silver can kill a soul.

I'm becoming a broken record, but the parable of the Seed Sower is becoming more and more intimate to my understanding, now.

The parable of the seed sower is about those who heard the gospel. That is very different from a person actually being in Christ friend. Remember it was Jesus who said that the branches that are cut off are in Him. It wasn’t someone making a false claim of being in Christ. It was Jesus Himself that said it. I do not believe Jesus would say someone is in Him who is not truly in Him.
 
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How can anyone dare to state how any one of us feels toward God or to state what type of rapport we have with Him?

It's like me calling the faith only persons lazy and not lovers of God...that would merit a reported post...
shouldn't theirs?

We can judge the actions of a person,,,
but we cannot judge their soul...
especially when I hear that it's those that want to please God that are going straight to hell.

While the ones who do not want to "help" Jesus seem to feel they're the saved ones.

The world is surely becoming the opposite of reality.

Well let’s look at our examples. Which of the apostles didn’t do any works? None of them, they all did works. They didn’t just sit around idle, believing and doing nothing.
 
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The parable of the seed sower is about those who heard the gospel. That is very different from a person actually being in Christ friend. Remember it was Jesus who said that the branches that are cut off are in Him. It wasn’t someone making a false claim of being in Christ. It was Jesus Himself that said it. I do not believe Jesus would say someone is in Him who is not truly in Him.

Judas was with Christ... He only gave Jesus his flesh. He never gave Jesus his heart.

This is what I mean by True Belief. Jesus has the heart of True Believers.

All Love in Jesus to you.
 
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Those of us who believe the gospel of grace recognize that if works are required on our part to be saved, then salvation is not of grace, as Paul also says, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5 Thus one cannot both believe in Jesus and work for salvation to be saved.

Romans 4:4, and Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Muslims are wrong because they have no grace or rest ever. It is purely a works based system of salvation in the Muslim religion and no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if they mess up. Their good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.

You said:
As for your list, the ways you misconstrued the verses are pretty much covered in the OP.

I don't see a commentary on a list of my verses in your OP. It seems like you are simply wanting to avoid in explaining them. But you are free to believe as you wish.
 
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Thanks for confirming the various things I've been saying that salvation-by-works Christians believe. The "initial" versus "final" salvation concept is an example of that which had not been well thought out. For what is a person saved from but from eternal condemnation. A person who was hypothetically "initally" saved from eternal condemnation cannot say that he has been saved, if in fact he ends up "finally" not being saved. (Note the rhetoric of Eph 2:8,9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.") This rhetoric does not match your theology as logically according to your theology a person can only say "I have the possibility of being saved, if I'm good enough in the end". That's the same mentality of the viewpoint Paul was opposing. The person is not putting his trust in God to save him, but rather trusting in himself to qualify himself to be saved.

No. Ephesians 2:8 is teaching "Initial Salvation." For are not gifts received one time? Or do you keep receiving the same gift over, and over, and over again? Also, Ephesians 2:1 says, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" So how many times are you being quickened? Is it every five seconds or daily? Surely we are quickened one time when we first accept Jesus as our Savior. Ephesians 3:17 says, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,"

You said:
And this is also what I've been saying about salvation by works Christians, they confuse Old Covenant concepts with the New Covenant concepts. They essentially think it's still justification by law, but simply by a different law. And many of them simply construct their new law by cherry picking from the law of Moses.

Oh boy. This is simply not so. I look to the commands in the New Testament that come from Jesus and His followers and I do not look to the Law of Moses. Also, it is a FACT of the Bible that the law has changed. It says so.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).​

You said:
There you go misconstruing all kinds of verses. I already spoke of the Luke 10 passage (which is also the Mt 19 passage) as an example of confusing Old Covenant with New.

No. Why would Jesus give us new teachings just so that they can change quickly after the cross? That makes absolutely zero sense. Besides, Paul even says that if any man does not agree with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4). Besides, even the apostle John confirms the truth of Jesus's teaching in Luke 10:25-28. Jesus agrees with the lawyer on the truth that we have to love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life. After the cross: John confirms this truth by saying that if any man hates his brother, he is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). Hate is the opposite of love. After the cross: Paul says that if any man does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22) (Note: Jesus is God, and so if one does not love God, they are accursed; An accursed person does not sound like a saved person).

You said:
As for 1John 1:7 you again confuse cause and effect. It's describing the behavior of those who are in Christ. You read it as a work to cause you to become saved.

Because 1 John 1:7 is written with an IF statement and not as a description of those who are already saved. It says IF we walk in the light. It does not say, "the saints who walk in the light, etc., etc." I am sure that is what you wish it would say, but that is not the reality of this verse.

You said:
And you read 1John 3:23 which says And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. and simply append it with "in order to be saved", which isn't actually there. Again that was covered in the OP 2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Heb 5:9 "to all who obey him". As I pointed out, those who are in Christ characteristically do obey him. Jesus said, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me" John 10:27 That's simply a truism. They listen and follow because they are his sheep. Those who disguise themselves wearing sheep clothing find it's not natural to listen and follow him. But the real sheep do.

Then 1 John 3:23 should not be a command. In fact, if all born again believers are just going to all automatically obey like a plane on autopilot, then why the command? It seems like overkill that we should be commanded to do anything if we will just automatically do it. They should be in the form of suggestions or friendly instructions and not in command form. Commands are something we MUST do. It makes no sense to command us if we are going to just do that thing anyways. We know from the rest of the Bible that men are perfectly capable of breaking God's commands; Even God's people. Even Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command.

Oh, and why is God's Word filled with threats or warnings if we are going to just automatically obey?
Why would Jesus warn us of the dire consequences of sin in the after life? Jesus taught us that if we look upon a woman in lust, our whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus said that if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Paul says that we we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Again, why say this? Sheep are sheep and goats are goats. Why tell us about something that we have no control over? This is why I see your support of Belief Alone-ism as being nonsensical. It just doesn't make any sense in reading the Bible plainly.

Anyways, I say this not to wound you dear sir, but I say this all in love.

May God's good ways be upon you;
And may you be at peace today in the Lord.
 
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In many cases they'll simply view "justification by law" as restricted to a composite of all the laws of Moses, and they'll come up with a new law, cherry picking certain laws from Moses or adding commands they find in the New Testament to create their own "law" and making salvation contingent upon complying with that law. Some will simply subtract from the law of Moses all regulations they classify as "ceremonial" and make salvation contingent upon complying with those subset of laws. In this they obviously miss the basic concept of what constitutes "justification by law" and the obvious contrast with justification by faith apart from law.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So you have to look at the 613 Laws of Moses as being one contract given to Israel, and the laws (or commands) given to us by Jesus and His followers (in the New Covenant) is another contract. For Romans 7:6 says, "we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Think of a covenant like when a person may buy a house. They are offered a contract for buying that house. But if that person does not like the contract in certain places, they may request to have the contract changed. If the seller and real estate agent agree to the changes, they will draw up a new contract (with the new changes) so as sell the house to him. For this guy who is buying the house, his idea of the purchase (according to the new contract) is more fulfilled and complete to his liking. So what do they do with the old contract? They discard it. Entirely? No. The new contract may have repeated many things in the old contract, but the new contract has changes in it that fulfill a better purpose or desire for the buyer.

We know that the New Covenant (New Contract) began officially with Christ's death (See Hebrews 9:16-17, Luke 22:20, Matthew 27:51). With the exception of a few instances like Christ endorsing animal sacrifices in Matthew 5:24, Jesus primarily was taught New Covenant teachings before the cross and not OT teachings. Jesus was preparing others for the way of the upcoming New Covenant or New Testament that would go into effect when he died upon the cross.

When Jesus says I come not to destroy the Law, he is referring to God’s Laws in general. Jesus did not come to destroy ALL forms of Law. Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. This means Jesus came to fulfill the Law into it's true intended purpose with the giving of the commands from Himself and His followers. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17). Jesus brought us commands in the New Covenant that were FAR superior to the Old Covenant Laws (contractually speaking - like contracts in buying a house).

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):

The Old Way says:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).​

The New Way (by Jesus) says:

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).​

The Old Way says:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).​

The New Way (by Jesus) says:

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).​

The Old Way says:

"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).​

The New Way (by Jesus) says:

34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).​

The Old Way says:

"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).​

The New Way (by Jesus) says:

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).​

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.

The Old Way says:

20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?"
(John 8:4-5).​

The New Way (by Jesus) says:

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).​

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).​

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).​

So it appears things have changed.
There is no cherry picking involved.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).
 
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sculleywr

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Exodus 14:14 ; Genesis 16:2

I'm neither Catholic nor Protestant... But I believe in the Universal, Invisible BOC found within many brick and mortar establishments... and many far without.

Being still in faith and waiting for God to fight for us, is far from "Doing Nothing". Faith is a Work (John 6:28-29)

Can anyone guess why I posted Genesis 16:2
You're Protestant. Just because you say you aren't doesn't mean you aren't. The invisible Church? A Protestant doctrine that came out of the Radical Reformation practice of Pietism. Sola Fide? A Protestant Dogma.

You hold to the central tenets of the Protestant Reformation. Ergo, you are Protestant.
 
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Yes there is.
Here is the abridged version:
Jesus did it all on the cross.
HIS part and OUR part.
We need do nothing at all.
We just have to sit around and wait for heaven.
For forgiveness we need do nothing. For glorification and justification we must have a LIVING faith. Without works, faith is dead. Ergo, works are needed
 
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If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.
And did he lose his ownership of the car which was allegedly a "free gift"? Your idea is that eternal life is a "free gift" which you have to work for "afterwards", both of which are contradictory. It's not eternal life if you end up hell. So the time frame you're talking about when a person receives the "free gift" of salvation from hell fire is not until after a person dies. Consequently the "works" you're talking about under your soteriology are works you do before you allegedly receive the "free gift", which isn't actually free since you had to work for it.

Furthermore even if one is allegedly given a "free gift" but there are stipulations in which he must live up to a certain standard or the "free gift" is taken away, then it's not really free as it's contingent upon how well you comply to a set of regulations.

And finally what about yourself. Have you perfectly lived a sinless "Christian" life? If you sinned then by your own soteriology you lost your "free gift".

I don't see a commentary on a list of my verses in your OP. It seems like you are simply wanting to avoid in explaining them. But you are free to believe as you wish.
Anyone can see that the manner in which you're misconstruing those verses are covered by the concepts in the OP.
 
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sculleywr

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Those of us who believe the gospel of grace recognize that if works are required on our part to be saved, then salvation is not of grace, as Paul also says, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5 Thus one cannot both believe in Jesus and work for salvation to be saved.

As for your list, the ways you misconstrued the verses are pretty much covered in the OP.
And yet, that is a non sequitur. Salvation is by grace. But God commanded us to follow Him. There isn't a single promise God has made that did not make requirements of those who it was given to. The issue here is that you are interpreting Romans 4 as if Romans 2 does not exist.

Protestants want to obligate God into doing something that goes against what He said He would do, which is to judge ALL men according to their actions.
 
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sculleywr

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And did he lose his ownership of the car which was allegedly a "free gift"? Your idea is that eternal life is a "free gift" which you have to work for "afterwards", both of which are contradictory. It's not eternal life if you end up hell. So the time frame you're talking about when a person receives the "free gift" of salvation from hell fire is not until after a person dies. Consequently the "works" you're talking about under your soteriology are works you do before you allegedly receive the "free gift", which isn't actually free since you had to work for it.

Furthermore even if one is allegedly given a "free gift" but there are stipulations in which he must live up to a certain standard or the "free gift" is taken away, then it's not really free as it's contingent upon how well you comply to a set of regulations.

And finally what about yourself. Have you perfectly lived a sinless "Christian" life? If you sinned then by your own soteriology you lost your "free gift".

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.


Anyone can see that the manner in which you're misconstruing those verses are covered by the concepts in the OP.
Actually, yes, he can lose the car altogether.

Scripture says plainly that we must obey Christ. If there is not an eternal consequence of disobedience, then those commands are nothing more than suggestions. Go ahead and live the life of Hitler. Your magic words did everything you need.
 
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