Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

[bcbsr]

Apparently all Christians before Luther and Calvin were boneheaded idiots, right?

You said it.

 

[sculleywr]

You said it.

It's the inescapable conclusion. If Protestants got it right, everyone before them were too stupid to understand the Apostles, even those who sat at the very feet of the Apostles were too stupid to understand the Gospel.

 

[Shimokita]

Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

To support their unbelief in the gospel of grace salvation-by-works Christians misconstrue verses to justify their unbelief. The following are the fundamental principles they follow to misconstrue verses.

1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification. Namely confusing the performance based justification in which one gains eternal life by doing works. (i.e. "Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5) with trust based justification. (i.e. "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. .. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."" Rom 10:9,11)

In many cases they'll simply view "justification by law" as restricted to a composite of all the laws of Moses, and they'll come up with a new law, cherry picking certain laws from Moses or adding commands they find in the New Testament to create their own "law" and making salvation contingent upon complying with that law. Some will simply subtract from the law of Moses all regulations they classify as "ceremonial" and make salvation contingent upon complying with those subset of laws. In this they obviously miss the basic concept of what constitutes "justification by law" and the obvious contrast with justification by faith apart from law.

Examples:
Alleging that Rom 2:7 is talking about the gospel of grace whereas it's referring to justification by law. "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." The way Paul is constructing his argument in Romans is that from Rom 1:18-3:20 he's talking about justification by law, which includes Rom 2:7. Then he transitions in Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Likewise Jesus speaks of justification by law in verses like Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." Compare that last phrase with what Paul says in Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." The same thing. Jesus is talking about justification by law in that passage just had Paul did in the early chapters of Romans. To those who are not prepared to hear the gospel of grace Paul and Jesus challenge them with justification by the law till they realize that they are not good enough to be saved. In fact in one instance it is written Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Luke 18:18,19 The problem with this person, as it is with salvation-by-works Christians, is he thought he could be good enough to be saved. He didn't understand that his concept of "good" was not good enough. And so Jesus goes on to challenge him with the Law.

2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it. They think you can't get Christians to do good unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation because that's the way salvation-by-works Christians operate, which is also the case for all trying to be justified by law. "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3:10 This as opposed to the fact that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Rom 8:1 and the reason why is "because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2

Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5

3. Confusing Cause and Effect. When a person comes to faith in Christ he is given the Holy Spirit to live in him and is born of God. Such things have an inevitable effect on one's behavior. Salvation by works Christians confuse verses which describe such an effect as if they were speaking of the cause of one's salvation rather then describing the behavior of one who has been saved. One contributing factor to them misconstruing verses in such a fashion is the fact that given their unbelief, they are not qualified to be born of God nor receive the Spirit and so find that such verses don't agree with their personal experience, so they misconstrue them as talking about something else.

Examples:

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." They listen and follow because they are his sheep. This as opposed to the idea that listening and following him cause them to become his sheep. Likewise John says, "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. " 1John 4:6 They hear what the apostles are teaching because they are of God, which includes understanding the apostles teachings as 1Cor 2:12,14 says "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. .. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (Which is why salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture on the points)

1John 3:9,10 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

Note that those born of God have a characteristic behavior not due to fear of condemnation, but rather due to the fact that they have been born of God. And that such a characteristic behavior is so inevitable and clearly distinct from that of children of the devil that the two can be distinguished based upon observations of behavior. This as opposed to typical claims of salvation by works Christians that one has to behave a certain way in order to be born of God and thus saved by one's behavior.

Typically they will also point out verses speaking of the converse, namely that those who behaved wickedly end up in hell, like Rev 21:8 "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And then they'll make the hypothesis that this proves salvation by works, which of course it doesn't. People don't behave in such a manner because they have been saved and subsequently born of God. So that verse and like verses are simply describing the behavior of those who had not been born of God.

is there an abridged version of this post by any chance?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

To support their unbelief in the gospel of grace salvation-by-works Christians misconstrue verses to justify their unbelief. The following are the fundamental principles they follow to misconstrue verses.

1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification. Namely confusing the performance based justification in which one gains eternal life by doing works. (i.e. "Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5) with trust based justification. (i.e. "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. .. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."" Rom 10:9,11)

In many cases they'll simply view "justification by law" as restricted to a composite of all the laws of Moses, and they'll come up with a new law, cherry picking certain laws from Moses or adding commands they find in the New Testament to create their own "law" and making salvation contingent upon complying with that law. Some will simply subtract from the law of Moses all regulations they classify as "ceremonial" and make salvation contingent upon complying with those subset of laws. In this they obviously miss the basic concept of what constitutes "justification by law" and the obvious contrast with justification by faith apart from law.

Examples:
Alleging that Rom 2:7 is talking about the gospel of grace whereas it's referring to justification by law. "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." The way Paul is constructing his argument in Romans is that from Rom 1:18-3:20 he's talking about justification by law, which includes Rom 2:7. Then he transitions in Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Likewise Jesus speaks of justification by law in verses like Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." Compare that last phrase with what Paul says in Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." The same thing. Jesus is talking about justification by law in that passage just had Paul did in the early chapters of Romans. To those who are not prepared to hear the gospel of grace Paul and Jesus challenge them with justification by the law till they realize that they are not good enough to be saved. In fact in one instance it is written Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Luke 18:18,19 The problem with this person, as it is with salvation-by-works Christians, is he thought he could be good enough to be saved. He didn't understand that his concept of "good" was not good enough. And so Jesus goes on to challenge him with the Law.

2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it. They think you can't get Christians to do good unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation because that's the way salvation-by-works Christians operate, which is also the case for all trying to be justified by law. "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3:10 This as opposed to the fact that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Rom 8:1 and the reason why is "because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2

Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5

3. Confusing Cause and Effect. When a person comes to faith in Christ he is given the Holy Spirit to live in him and is born of God. Such things have an inevitable effect on one's behavior. Salvation by works Christians confuse verses which describe such an effect as if they were speaking of the cause of one's salvation rather then describing the behavior of one who has been saved. One contributing factor to them misconstruing verses in such a fashion is the fact that given their unbelief, they are not qualified to be born of God nor receive the Spirit and so find that such verses don't agree with their personal experience, so they misconstrue them as talking about something else.

Examples:

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." They listen and follow because they are his sheep. This as opposed to the idea that listening and following him cause them to become his sheep. Likewise John says, "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. " 1John 4:6 They hear what the apostles are teaching because they are of God, which includes understanding the apostles teachings as 1Cor 2:12,14 says "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. .. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (Which is why salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture on the points)

1John 3:9,10 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

Note that those born of God have a characteristic behavior not due to fear of condemnation, but rather due to the fact that they have been born of God. And that such a characteristic behavior is so inevitable and clearly distinct from that of children of the devil that the two can be distinguished based upon observations of behavior. This as opposed to typical claims of salvation by works Christians that one has to behave a certain way in order to be born of God and thus saved by one's behavior.

Typically they will also point out verses speaking of the converse, namely that those who behaved wickedly end up in hell, like Rev 21:8 "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And then they'll make the hypothesis that this proves salvation by works, which of course it doesn't. People don't behave in such a manner because they have been saved and subsequently born of God. So that verse and like verses are simply describing the behavior of those who had not been born of God.

Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). But make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too. Check out my next post to you.

Anyways, there are five things (as a whole) in the Bible that people are not getting when they read Paul, and thus they easily misunderstand him in justifying a false "sin and still be saved" or "Belief Alone" type gospel (Which is no doubt appealing because it means that a person does not have to change their life all that much and they can live for themselves instead of the Lord). But Jesus says, "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? (Luke 6:46) (NHEB).

Here are the 5 things (as a whole) in Scripture that your average Christian does not understand when they read Paul:

#1. The Bible teaches that there is a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12); So when Paul talks about the "Law" (generically), he is referring to the Torah, i.e. the Old Law (or the many laws given to Moses and Israel) and not the commandments given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers (i.e. the New Law or New Testament Law).

#2. Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

#3. The Bible speaks against the "False Pharisee Religion" that Paul used to be part of (Which taught: "Law Alone Salvationism" or "Works Alone Salvationism" without God's grace, i.e. Jesus Christ) (See Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, Luke 18:9-14). Hence, why Paul said we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and that we are not saved by works of righteousness that we have done but we are saved by his mercy (Titus 3:5).

#4. The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

#5. The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

 

[GodsGrace101]

It's the inescapable conclusion. If Protestants got it right, everyone before them were too stupid to understand the Apostles, even those who sat at the very feet of the Apostles were too stupid to understand the Gospel.

Agreed.
What did those nutty Early Church Fathers think they knew anyway?

Just because they knew Peter, or John and studied at their feet, that makes them experts?

1,500 years wasted...waiting for the Reformation.

Which, seriously, was needed too; even though it caused God knows how many deaths in Europe.

These days people watch YouTube and trust their favorite pastor instead of those that learned directly from the Apostles or those that knew them.

We're in a sad situation.

 

[GodsGrace101]

is there an abridged version of this post by any chance?

Yes there is.
Here is the abridged version:
Jesus did it all on the cross.
HIS part and OUR part.
We need do nothing at all.
We just have to sit around and wait for heaven.

 

[Shimokita]

Yes there is.
Here is the abridged version:
Jesus did it all on the cross.
HIS part and OUR part.
We need do nothing at all.
We just have to sit around and wait for heaven.

Thanks

 

[GodsGrace101]

Thanks

You're welcome.

I seem to understand these days that the good news is that NOTHING is required of us.

We've become very lazy Christians indeed.

 

[Grip Docility]

It's the inescapable conclusion. If Protestants got it right, everyone before them were too stupid to understand the Apostles, even those who sat at the very feet of the Apostles were too stupid to understand the Gospel.

is there an abridged version of this post by any chance?

Agreed.
What did those nutty Early Church Fathers think they knew anyway?

Just because they knew Peter, or John and studied at their feet, that makes them experts?

1,500 years wasted...waiting for the Reformation.

Which, seriously, was needed too; even though it caused God knows how many deaths in Europe.

These days people watch YouTube and trust their favorite pastor instead of those that learned directly from the Apostles or those that knew them.

We're in a sad situation.

Yes there is.
Here is the abridged version:
Jesus did it all on the cross.
HIS part and OUR part.
We need do nothing at all.
We just have to sit around and wait for heaven.

Exodus 14:14 ; Genesis 16:2

I'm neither Catholic nor Protestant... But I believe in the Universal, Invisible BOC found within many brick and mortar establishments... and many far without.

Being still in faith and waiting for God to fight for us, is far from "Doing Nothing". Faith is a Work (John 6:28-29)

Can anyone guess why I posted Genesis 16:2

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

To support their unbelief in the gospel of grace salvation-by-works Christians misconstrue verses to justify their unbelief. The following are the fundamental principles they follow to misconstrue verses.

1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification. Namely confusing the performance based justification in which one gains eternal life by doing works. (i.e. "Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5) with trust based justification. (i.e. "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. .. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."" Rom 10:9,11)

In many cases they'll simply view "justification by law" as restricted to a composite of all the laws of Moses, and they'll come up with a new law, cherry picking certain laws from Moses or adding commands they find in the New Testament to create their own "law" and making salvation contingent upon complying with that law. Some will simply subtract from the law of Moses all regulations they classify as "ceremonial" and make salvation contingent upon complying with those subset of laws. In this they obviously miss the basic concept of what constitutes "justification by law" and the obvious contrast with justification by faith apart from law.

Examples:
Alleging that Rom 2:7 is talking about the gospel of grace whereas it's referring to justification by law. "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." The way Paul is constructing his argument in Romans is that from Rom 1:18-3:20 he's talking about justification by law, which includes Rom 2:7. Then he transitions in Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Likewise Jesus speaks of justification by law in verses like Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." Compare that last phrase with what Paul says in Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." The same thing. Jesus is talking about justification by law in that passage just had Paul did in the early chapters of Romans. To those who are not prepared to hear the gospel of grace Paul and Jesus challenge them with justification by the law till they realize that they are not good enough to be saved. In fact in one instance it is written Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Luke 18:18,19 The problem with this person, as it is with salvation-by-works Christians, is he thought he could be good enough to be saved. He didn't understand that his concept of "good" was not good enough. And so Jesus goes on to challenge him with the Law.

2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it. They think you can't get Christians to do good unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation because that's the way salvation-by-works Christians operate, which is also the case for all trying to be justified by law. "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3:10 This as opposed to the fact that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Rom 8:1 and the reason why is "because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2

Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5

3. Confusing Cause and Effect. When a person comes to faith in Christ he is given the Holy Spirit to live in him and is born of God. Such things have an inevitable effect on one's behavior. Salvation by works Christians confuse verses which describe such an effect as if they were speaking of the cause of one's salvation rather then describing the behavior of one who has been saved. One contributing factor to them misconstruing verses in such a fashion is the fact that given their unbelief, they are not qualified to be born of God nor receive the Spirit and so find that such verses don't agree with their personal experience, so they misconstrue them as talking about something else.

Examples:

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." They listen and follow because they are his sheep. This as opposed to the idea that listening and following him cause them to become his sheep. Likewise John says, "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. " 1John 4:6 They hear what the apostles are teaching because they are of God, which includes understanding the apostles teachings as 1Cor 2:12,14 says "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. .. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (Which is why salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture on the points)

1John 3:9,10 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

Note that those born of God have a characteristic behavior not due to fear of condemnation, but rather due to the fact that they have been born of God. And that such a characteristic behavior is so inevitable and clearly distinct from that of children of the devil that the two can be distinguished based upon observations of behavior. This as opposed to typical claims of salvation by works Christians that one has to behave a certain way in order to be born of God and thus saved by one's behavior.

Typically they will also point out verses speaking of the converse, namely that those who behaved wickedly end up in hell, like Rev 21:8 "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And then they'll make the hypothesis that this proves salvation by works, which of course it doesn't. People don't behave in such a manner because they have been saved and subsequently born of God. So that verse and like verses are simply describing the behavior of those who had not been born of God.

And yet you run from John 15 every time.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why do you continue to propagate a non-truth?

I haven't read your entire O.P. because it's the same as all your other O.P.'s...

But this caught my eye, and you repeat this constantly and it is not true.

How could YOU know how every other Christian feels?

You cannot.

Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5

Since you believe that one's DOCTRINE could cause him to be disqualified, I certainly hope YOU have your doctrine 100% correct.

It’s called intentional misrepresentation. It’s actually a despicable tactic of deception intended to discredit certain groups by distorting the truth of their true intentions or beliefs. I would also add that such tactics are not very indicative of Christian behavior.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

To support their unbelief in the gospel of grace salvation-by-works Christians misconstrue verses to justify their unbelief. The following are the fundamental principles they follow to misconstrue verses.

1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification. Namely confusing the performance based justification in which one gains eternal life by doing works. (i.e. "Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5) with trust based justification. (i.e. "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. .. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."" Rom 10:9,11)

In many cases they'll simply view "justification by law" as restricted to a composite of all the laws of Moses, and they'll come up with a new law, cherry picking certain laws from Moses or adding commands they find in the New Testament to create their own "law" and making salvation contingent upon complying with that law. Some will simply subtract from the law of Moses all regulations they classify as "ceremonial" and make salvation contingent upon complying with those subset of laws. In this they obviously miss the basic concept of what constitutes "justification by law" and the obvious contrast with justification by faith apart from law.

Examples:
Alleging that Rom 2:7 is talking about the gospel of grace whereas it's referring to justification by law. "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." The way Paul is constructing his argument in Romans is that from Rom 1:18-3:20 he's talking about justification by law, which includes Rom 2:7. Then he transitions in Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Likewise Jesus speaks of justification by law in verses like Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." Compare that last phrase with what Paul says in Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." The same thing. Jesus is talking about justification by law in that passage just had Paul did in the early chapters of Romans. To those who are not prepared to hear the gospel of grace Paul and Jesus challenge them with justification by the law till they realize that they are not good enough to be saved. In fact in one instance it is written Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Luke 18:18,19 The problem with this person, as it is with salvation-by-works Christians, is he thought he could be good enough to be saved. He didn't understand that his concept of "good" was not good enough. And so Jesus goes on to challenge him with the Law.

2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it. They think you can't get Christians to do good unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation because that's the way salvation-by-works Christians operate, which is also the case for all trying to be justified by law. "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3:10 This as opposed to the fact that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Rom 8:1 and the reason why is "because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2

Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5

3. Confusing Cause and Effect. When a person comes to faith in Christ he is given the Holy Spirit to live in him and is born of God. Such things have an inevitable effect on one's behavior. Salvation by works Christians confuse verses which describe such an effect as if they were speaking of the cause of one's salvation rather then describing the behavior of one who has been saved. One contributing factor to them misconstruing verses in such a fashion is the fact that given their unbelief, they are not qualified to be born of God nor receive the Spirit and so find that such verses don't agree with their personal experience, so they misconstrue them as talking about something else.

Examples:

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." They listen and follow because they are his sheep. This as opposed to the idea that listening and following him cause them to become his sheep. Likewise John says, "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. " 1John 4:6 They hear what the apostles are teaching because they are of God, which includes understanding the apostles teachings as 1Cor 2:12,14 says "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. .. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (Which is why salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture on the points)

1John 3:9,10 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

Note that those born of God have a characteristic behavior not due to fear of condemnation, but rather due to the fact that they have been born of God. And that such a characteristic behavior is so inevitable and clearly distinct from that of children of the devil that the two can be distinguished based upon observations of behavior. This as opposed to typical claims of salvation by works Christians that one has to behave a certain way in order to be born of God and thus saved by one's behavior.

Typically they will also point out verses speaking of the converse, namely that those who behaved wickedly end up in hell, like Rev 21:8 "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And then they'll make the hypothesis that this proves salvation by works, which of course it doesn't. People don't behave in such a manner because they have been saved and subsequently born of God. So that verse and like verses are simply describing the behavior of those who had not been born of God.

First, in your OP, you also falsely imply that Christians who believe as you do will automatically do good works and live holy (even though you really do not believe that according to the statements made at your own website). For you essentially stated that we have to recognize our own sinfulness (implying that we are not living holy) and that we are in a constant state of paying lip service to the Lord (confessing sin) our whole lives.

For you said, I quote:

"There are those, particularly in the holiness movement, that claim to no longer sin. They deny their inherent sinful nature. They deceive themselves, overlooking their own sinfulness. ...they lack the conviction of sin... ...believers are honest about themselves. We recognize and confess our sinfulness. Such confession is part of our lifestyle. Once again, we are both justified from sin and in the process of being sanctified."​

Source:
1John 1:1-2:2

Now, while the Lord can forgive us if we confess our sin when we honestly stumble (1 John 1:9), we are not slaves to grievous sin. John also said, to "sin not" (1 John 2:1). Jesus also said to two people to "sin no more." (John 5:14, and John 8:11). Romans 6:14 says that sin shall not have dominion over you. Just like the alcoholic can overcome his sin of drunkenness, and addiction to alcohol, the believer in Jesus can also overcome grievous sin in their life. The Bible actually teaches this if you were to look for the verses (See Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2).

Second, you also imply that true believers will all live holy as a matter of fact. But this does not even work in light of what Scripture says. We are told to endure, overcome, resist temptation, be faithful unto death, and keep ourselves in the love of God (Which is all a part of salvation).

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).​

Why are we told to do this as a part of eternal life if it is all just automatic for those Christians who just believe in Jesus? So the Bible is saying something entirely different than what you are saying here, friend.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I will be candid. Love is a work of the Holy Spirit. Frustrating Grace is accomplished by attempting to accomplish the Works Of God in the Flesh.

I will hold fast that my only work is Belief. True Belief, comes from the Father, recognizing my belief in the Son.

If a person becomes unloving that is a sibling... I extend grace... and trust the Holy Spirit to impart that Fruit.

As for patience... Being someone that prayed for it... I warn all that true patience is to suffer physical and emotional pain, for an extended amount of time, and maintain composure. It is truly LongSuffering.

I appreciate how you have worded this.

I will simply say this. If a sinful man like me can be equipped by God, Alone, to produce fruit and seed the Gospel... Anyone can do it!

If that is true friend how can anyone fail to abide in Christ?

 

[Grip Docility]

If that is true friend how can anyone fail to abide in Christ?

Those who have believed, but have not been drawn into true belief yet are subject to the terrible fates that are brought on within the Parable of the Seed Sower.... though one fate is positive.

A True Believer will not fall away. Allow me to ask you this. Who does God see when we approach Him as true believers? His son, or us?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

To support their unbelief in the gospel of grace salvation-by-works Christians misconstrue verses to justify their unbelief. The following are the fundamental principles they follow to misconstrue verses.

1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification. Namely confusing the performance based justification in which one gains eternal life by doing works. (i.e. "Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5) with trust based justification. (i.e. "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. .. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."" Rom 10:9,11)

In many cases they'll simply view "justification by law" as restricted to a composite of all the laws of Moses, and they'll come up with a new law, cherry picking certain laws from Moses or adding commands they find in the New Testament to create their own "law" and making salvation contingent upon complying with that law. Some will simply subtract from the law of Moses all regulations they classify as "ceremonial" and make salvation contingent upon complying with those subset of laws. In this they obviously miss the basic concept of what constitutes "justification by law" and the obvious contrast with justification by faith apart from law.

Examples:
Alleging that Rom 2:7 is talking about the gospel of grace whereas it's referring to justification by law. "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." The way Paul is constructing his argument in Romans is that from Rom 1:18-3:20 he's talking about justification by law, which includes Rom 2:7. Then he transitions in Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Likewise Jesus speaks of justification by law in verses like Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." Compare that last phrase with what Paul says in Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." The same thing. Jesus is talking about justification by law in that passage just had Paul did in the early chapters of Romans. To those who are not prepared to hear the gospel of grace Paul and Jesus challenge them with justification by the law till they realize that they are not good enough to be saved. In fact in one instance it is written Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Luke 18:18,19 The problem with this person, as it is with salvation-by-works Christians, is he thought he could be good enough to be saved. He didn't understand that his concept of "good" was not good enough. And so Jesus goes on to challenge him with the Law.

2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it. They think you can't get Christians to do good unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation because that's the way salvation-by-works Christians operate, which is also the case for all trying to be justified by law. "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3:10 This as opposed to the fact that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Rom 8:1 and the reason why is "because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2

Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5

3. Confusing Cause and Effect. When a person comes to faith in Christ he is given the Holy Spirit to live in him and is born of God. Such things have an inevitable effect on one's behavior. Salvation by works Christians confuse verses which describe such an effect as if they were speaking of the cause of one's salvation rather then describing the behavior of one who has been saved. One contributing factor to them misconstruing verses in such a fashion is the fact that given their unbelief, they are not qualified to be born of God nor receive the Spirit and so find that such verses don't agree with their personal experience, so they misconstrue them as talking about something else.

Examples:

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." They listen and follow because they are his sheep. This as opposed to the idea that listening and following him cause them to become his sheep. Likewise John says, "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. " 1John 4:6 They hear what the apostles are teaching because they are of God, which includes understanding the apostles teachings as 1Cor 2:12,14 says "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. .. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (Which is why salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture on the points)

1John 3:9,10 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

Note that those born of God have a characteristic behavior not due to fear of condemnation, but rather due to the fact that they have been born of God. And that such a characteristic behavior is so inevitable and clearly distinct from that of children of the devil that the two can be distinguished based upon observations of behavior. This as opposed to typical claims of salvation by works Christians that one has to behave a certain way in order to be born of God and thus saved by one's behavior.

Typically they will also point out verses speaking of the converse, namely that those who behaved wickedly end up in hell, like Rev 21:8 "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And then they'll make the hypothesis that this proves salvation by works, which of course it doesn't. People don't behave in such a manner because they have been saved and subsequently born of God. So that verse and like verses are simply describing the behavior of those who had not been born of God.

As for your claim that us "Works Type Salvation Christians" confuse "Cause and Effect:"

Well, you think that "Salvation" is the "Cause," and "Not Continuing in Sin" (1 John 3) is the "Effect." But as I pointed out before, you said that the problem you have with holiness types is that they claim to no longer sin. Granted, I believe this "sin" to be "grievous sin" that the Bible explicitly condemns (and not minor transgressions, faults of character, or the sin that does not lead unto death). For Christians who are faithful will meet a basic standard of holy living by overcoming grievous sin. Yet, you quote 1 John 3 about "no one who is born of God will continue in sin." How does that work in your view? How can you say that you do not continue in sin if you take issue with Christians who claim to do so? Also, the "Effect" is never separate from the "Cause."

You want to cut out salvation from works (of which the Bible teaches after we are saved by God's grace). But if Salvation leads to works or holy living, then Salvation is tied to works and holy living. An example: When the rain came (the Cause), it flooded the house (the Effect). The rain water is the flood. You want to say that the rain is not related to the flood because you are saying that works (or holy living) is not related to Salvation (Which is the Cause).

Side Note:

Granted, there are examples where the Effect is not so closely related to the Cause. For example: A lightning bolt struck a tree and it split the tree in half. The Effect is a broken up tree. A lightning bolt is not a tree. But the tree would not have gotten that way without the lightning bolt. A man with an axe can also split a tree. The man swinging the axe can be the Cause, and the Effect can be chopped wood or a split tree. A man wielding an axe is not a tree cut in half, but the tree would not have gotten that way without the man cutting it with an axe. So even in cases like these, they have a close relationship to each other. So while it is possible that there are scenarios where the Cause is not exactly like the Effect, there are scenarios like Rain Water From a Storm causing a Flood (Pooled up Rain Water) to be almost the same thing as one another. Anyways, the point here is that the Cause and Effect illustration is not a good one for either side of this debate. Scripture and other more fitting real world examples has to be the determination of truth here.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Those who have believed, but have not been drawn into true belief yet are subject to the terrible fates that are brought on within the Parable of the Seed Sower.... though one fate is positive.

A True Believer will not fall away. Allow me to ask you this. Who does God see when we approach Him as true believers? His son, or us?

Then untrue believers can be in Christ and attached to the vine? We’re Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles true believers? If so why did Jesus tell them to remain in Him if they are incapable of failing to remain?

 

[bcbsr]

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:
(Here are a List of Verses):

Those of us who believe the gospel of grace recognize that if works are required on our part to be saved, then salvation is not of grace, as Paul also says, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5 Thus one cannot both believe in Jesus and work for salvation to be saved.

As for your list, the ways you misconstrued the verses are pretty much covered in the OP.

 

[BNR32FAN]

As for your claim that us "Works Type Salvation Christians" confuse "Cause and Effect:"

Well, you think that "Salvation" is the "Cause," and "Not Continuing in Sin" (1 John 3) is the "Effect." But as I pointed out before, you said that the problem you have with holiness types is that they claim to no longer sin. Granted, I believe this "sin" to be "grievous sin" that the Bible explicitly condemns (and not minor transgressions, faults of character, or the sin that does not lead unto death). For Christians who are faithful will meet a basic standard of holy living by overcoming grievous sin. Yet, you quote 1 John 3 about "no one who is born of God will continue in sin." How does that work in your view? How can you say that you do not continue in sin if you take issue with Christians who claim to do so? Also, the "Effect" is never separate from the "Cause."

You want to cut out salvation from works (of which the Bible teaches after we are saved by God's grace). But if Salvation leads to works or holy living, then Salvation is tied to works and holy living. An example: When the rain came (the Cause), it flooded the house (the Effect). The rain water is the flood. You want to say that the rain is not related to the flood because you are saying that works (or holy living) is not related to Salvation (Which is the Cause).

Side Note:

Granted, there are examples where the Effect is not so closely related to the Cause. For example: A lightning bolt struck a tree and it split the tree in half. The Effect is a broken up tree. A lightning bolt is not a tree. But the tree would not have gotten that way without the lightning bolt. A man with an axe can also split a tree. The man swinging the axe can be the Cause, and the Effect can be chopped wood or a split tree. A man wielding an axe is not a tree cut in half, but the tree would not have gotten that way without the man cutting it with an axe. So even in cases like these, they have a close relationship to each other. So while it is possible that there are scenarios where the Cause is not exactly like the Effect, there are scenarios like Rain Water From a Storm causing a Flood (Pooled up Rain Water) to be almost the same thing as one another. Anyways, the point here is that the Cause and Effect illustration is not a good one for either side of this debate. Scripture and other more fitting real world examples has to be the determination of truth here.

Cause and effect doesn’t even apply to salvation because more than one requirement is necessary to receive it. Just like you can’t use cause and effect to explain the requirements for attaining a driver’s license. Just because the driver’s license handbook says you can get your driver’s license at the age of 16 doesn’t mean as soon as you turn 16 you automatically receive a driver’s license. If a person continues reading they will find there are many more requirements necessary to attain a driver’s license. The same applies for salvation and reading the scriptures to ascertain what is necessary for salvation.

 

[Grip Docility]

Then untrue believers can be in Christ and attached to the vine? We’re Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles true believers? If so why did Jesus tell them to remain in Him if they are incapable of failing to remain?

The very same Reason He never got to speak this to the one that was missing. 30 pieces of silver can kill a soul.

I'm becoming a broken record, but the parable of the Seed Sower is becoming more and more intimate to my understanding, now.