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Water baptism

ByTheSpirit

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Water baptism is a precious thing given to us from the Lord. I firmly believe it has lost it's place in the Western Church by and large. The hopes of this discussion is to foster some type of dialogue on the issue WITHOUT any bickering or sneering from either side.

I would like to eventually go over baptism's importance as it pertains to the Christian life in regards to:

Our priesthood
Spiritual circumcision
Discipleship

Those three things are what I will cover. Since I can't fully delve into the topic as per the new forum rules (which I intend to abide by), these three topics can be discussed and still be presented in a way that highlights the utter importance of baptism.

*DISCLAIMER* I do believe we can enter heaven without being baptized. Example, if I were preaching and someone decided they wanted in on the Christian life and I told them to meet me at the nearest water point for baptism and they perished on the way, I do believe Jesus would take their faith. It is after all a person's FAITH that saves them. It's not grace that saves. It's faith. Ephesians 2:8 is one of the most misquoted verses I think in the history of ever. But that discussion is not for this thread, so I digress. Perhaps we can start another thread on that topic, this is about water baptism.
 
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DarylFawcett

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It is after all a person's FAITH that saves them. It's not grace that saves.
Based on the above quoted portion of your post, how does Ephesians 2:8 fit into your saying that grace doesn't save?

Oops! I should have read the rest.

You are also correct that this part should be for a separate thread.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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1 Peter 3:21 ESV

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Before you go reporting me for breaking the rules read what I am about to put down here.

Has it ever bothered you that in the book of Acts, in every single instance of conversion, those being converted were baptized immediately or as soon as possible (as the case in the Philippian jailer-Acts 16)? Probably not, as most here have somewhat violently resisted my position on baptism.

But why? Why did those men who walked physically with Jesus, who ate with him, slept in the same area as him, why did they do it? Jesus even taught them baptism (John 4). Surely, and hear me on this! Surely, if Jesus never intended baptism as an important part of the new birth process he would not have wasted his time.

Why is it that the very first time someone (or someones) in Acts asks the Apostles, "What must we do [to be saved]?" (Acts 2:37) the first thing that Peter said was what?

Acts 2:38 ESV
“Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Repent
Be baptized
Receive the Holy Spirit

No, let's pray a little prayer and ask Jesus into your heart...
No, God predestined some here for salvation so he has saved you by grace...
None of that modern church mumbo jumbo I'm so sick of hearing.

REPENT & BE BAPTIZED

Now Peter when later in life wanting to leave a written record of his teaching wrote 1 Peter he included baptism again in the new birth process.

This is where I'm going with this and I again plead with you to read with some discernment before you hit the report button.

Baptism was to the church of Acts what altar calls and the sinner's prayer are to the modern church.

When they preached, they told people get baptized! Much like today preachers tell people, come to the altar, you'll be met by someone that will lead you in a prayer. The modern church has just shifted the event from what scripture says to what is convenient and easier.

We fear someone may be embarrassed to be baptized.

Well if they are too embarrassed to stand and proclaim their faith in front of other believers, how will they ever stand in front of non-believers?!

Jesus did say, those who confess me before men I will confess before my Father, but those who deny me, I will also deny... right?

In a true gospel presentation, baptism was preached as the physical point at which a person's faith in Christ materialized.

In Acts chapter 8, Philip is told by the Holy Spirit... the HOLY SPIRIT to go and talk to the Ethiopian eunuch (horribly shortening the story but most here know it - Acts 8). As the eunuch reads from the scroll of Isaiah about the suffering servant (Isaiah 53) he asks Philip who is being talked about. Picking up in 8:35-40 of Acts:

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. 36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?”[a] 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

It is plain as day here. During the course of Philip preaching the gospel to this eunuch he mentions baptism (v36). How else would this eunuch know he needed to be baptized? This is probably one of the clearest accounts in the entire New Testament of the importance of baptism. If these men and women who were 1st generation believers, just removed from the ascension of Christ, preached baptism with the gospel how much more should we?

Now, some scriptures include a verse in that passage, verse 37. This is not a textual criticism thread so I'm not going to go into that but for the sake of clarity here, I would like to state that verse.

Acts 8:37 KJV
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Some may use this verse to prove that confession is needed before baptism is administered. Others may counteract with the irrelevence of the text for various reasons, textual basis or whatever. What is important to note about the verse is the eunuch professes his faith before his baptism. But that did not prompt Philip to say ok well you have the important part down, now join with a group of believers and when possible get baptized.

No, he preached the gospel to this eunuch. In the course of the presentation, he mentions baptism in some way. The eunuch upon believing is baptized.

This is what I believe Peter was getting at in both his Pentecost sermon and his epistle. That baptism should be the immediate event of the new convert to publicly profess their faith in Christ. That is why "baptism... now saves you... through the resurrection of Jesus Christ..." (as I bolded in the headlining text; 1 Peter 3:21) It is because baptism was the immediate event of the early church for new converts to show their faith, just like the altar call and sinner's prayer (and subsequent round of applause/hand shake) are for today's church.

Funny (well actually pretty sad)... I don't read about any altar calls/sinner's prayer in the book of Acts. None. That is after all the only Holy Spirit inspired document on church history to ever exist. Surely if baptism was just some thing that really isn't that important, perhaps not even necessary, it would have been mentioned seldom if ever. But it's not just mentioned once or twice, but at least 9 times (depending on how you read it).

What I'm getting at here is the church needs to return to the way scripture outlines things. Baptism was the way the church of Acts allowed new converts to demonstrate their faith. It was administered immediately, or as quickly as possible, after people professed their intention for salvation.

I plan on getting into the finer details of this topic. Hopefully the discussion can be had in a way that allows all people to discuss their point of view respectfully and not in a dominating manner. Again, I will re-emphasize for clarity sake as I'm sure some probably will want to report this thread, I do not believe baptism is an absolute necessity for salvation. It is a command though, commands are meant to be obeyed. It is a blessing, why should we wait? (Acts 22:16) I'm simply saying, the church in Acts administered baptisms in HUGE numbers immediately, the modern church should too.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Based on the above quoted portion of your post, how does Ephesians 2:8 fit into your saying that grace doesn't save?

Oops! I should have read the rest.

You are also correct that this part should be for a separate thread.

I will answer this once out of respect...

I believe Ephesians 2:8 should be read more like this:

By your faith God saves you as an act of grace, not because you deserve it, it's his gift [for your faith]...

I hope that clarifies it a bit :)

Now, back to water baptism :)
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Matthew 3:13-17 ESV
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. 14 John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented. 16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Okay so 2 things here I want to dissect within this passage. I'll deal first with the reason Jesus was baptized.

Now John baptized people to show they had repented of their sins. We know that Jesus had no sin (2 Cor 5:21; Heb 4:15), so why in the world did he submit to John's baptism? Obviously it wasn't to show he had repented. He also didn't just try to identify himself with those to come after (as some preach).

Allow me to take you back to the Old Testament in Exodus 29:4 & Numbers 8:6-7.

Exodus 29:4 ESV
You shall bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance of the tent of meeting and wash them with water.

God told Moses that Aaron and his sons (a reference to future high priests) were to be baptized. Now in context, which I won't post to shorten this, God was telling Moses that before the high priest could serve in his presence he had to be baptized "wash them with water" among other things.

Before we say, "But that was the Old Covenant..." didn't Jesus come to fulfill the Law, not to destroy it? (Matthew 5:17) Jesus obviously knew about this command. He was the one that gave it to Moses, how could he not know about it? He also knew his office was to become the high priest of the new covenant. A high priest after Melchezidek (Hebrews 4:14-5:10; Hebrews 7-8; Hebrews 10:19-22)

So before Jesus could assume his role as High Priest and all the responsibilities that came with it, he had to be baptized. This is why he made the statement he did, "Thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness."

Now what does that have to do with us?

Well the first obvious point to make is if Jesus was baptized, shouldn't we want to be baptized too? I mean we preach, Jesus was love, so we should be love. We preach, Jesus had humility, so we should have humility. We preach, Jesus healed the sick, so we should heal the sick. Why not preach, Jesus was baptized, so we should be baptized?

The second point and more to what I'm trying to speak of is this:

If Jesus as High Priest had to be baptized before he could serve God in his high priestly calling (Exodus 29:4), then in like manner we should be baptized before we assume our purpose as priests unto God.

1 Peter 2:5, 9 ESV
you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Revelation 1:5-6 ESV
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Now both Peter and John, the only two of Jesus' inner circle that survived long enough to write scripture state that all believer's are priests. Before you say, "Well we are believer's before baptism..." I agree, baptism doesn't make a person believe or a believer. But in scripture days, it was an accepted fact that all who believed were baptized because they were. They were baptized immediately (read Acts).

So when Peter and John wrote those scriptures, they had assumed that those they were writing to (and subsequent generations) would be baptized immediately. So what does God say about the priesthood in the Old Covenant?

Numbers 8:6-7 ESV
6 Take the Levites from among the people of Israel and cleanse them. 7 Thus you shall do to them to cleanse them: sprinkle the water of purification upon them, and let them go with a razor over all their body, and wash their clothes and cleanse themselves.

The Levites were the priestly tribe of ancient Israel. God was telling them that before they could serve as priests unto himself, they had to be cleansed with the waters of purification, just as Aaron and the high priests were. Now we know the high priest was over the entire priesthood. He was the man in charge. This doesn't change in our times. Jesus is our high priest. As he was baptized before he began his ministry and took on his office, so should we. It's not just a matter of convenience, but a matter of obedience. God commanded all priests be baptized before they serve him as such.

Now to the last point I want to make from Matthew 3.

Jesus was baptized. The Holy Spirit came (Acts 2:38, 19:1-6 anyone???). The Father voiced his approval from heaven.

All three figures of the God-head had a manifestation at the baptism of Jesus. It is one of the few times in the entire Bible that happens. Such a tremendous event! That all three persons of the Triune God appear or manifest themselves at a singular event. That event is Jesus' baptism. I believe (and you can disagree here) that God was showing his blessing not only on Jesus which is normally accepted, but also on the practice of baptism.

Jesus could have chosen any method he wanted to inaugerate himself into his high priestly role and office, but he chose water baptism. He showed his acceptance of John's ministry which was mainly done through baptism, hence the name John the Baptist.

So not only should we be baptized in order to take on our role as priests unto God, but we should be baptized because God has blessed water baptism and made something pure out of it. Why in the world would we want to withhold water from those who believe? (Acts 10:47; Acts 22:16)
 
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Alithis

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Based on the above quoted portion of your post, how does Ephesians 2:8 fit into your saying that grace doesn't save?

Oops! I should have read the rest.

You are also correct that this part should be for a separate thread.

:wave:

without being all "set in stone about it " i guess conversationally we could phrase it as ... the grace of god awakens the seed of faith within us .. and all that results when we act accordingly in obedience .. by faith .

i have no idea how in the outer world getting dunked in water plays a part in saving me .. but the lord tells me to do so .. so BY FAITH (not by understanding )i do so .. without faith it is impossible to please God ..
So if he has graciously brought us to the realization that we must act om faith .. then we should do just that :)
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Now most here consider themselves Nicene Creed believers... a dear brother here recently mentioned this in a discussion on baptism, as did I in my now closed teaching thread on baptism, so I want to rehash this. What does the Nicene Creed say?

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. (As per https://www.ccel.org/creeds/nicene.creed.html)

Read that last paragraph again...

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Now what does the second sentence say of the last paragraph of the Nicene Creed? I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins

Now before we say, well there are many baptisms listed in scripture so which one are we talking about?

There is only one baptism in scripture that is linked with remission of sins...

Acts 2:38
Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

This is the only baptism in scripture that is linked with that effect. So it is clear that the Nicene Creed is focusing this baptism on water baptism. They also undoubtedly pulled this statement from Paul's scriptural creed in Ephesians 4:4-6

4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

ONE BAPTISM

Now yes, there are many baptisms listed in the New Covenant. You have the baptism of death (Luke 12:50), the baptism of the Spirit (Acts 1:4-5), and water baptism (Matthew 28:19).

Now context is everything in scripture study. What baptism is Paul speaking of here in context? Only twice in Ephesians does Paul mention baptism, first here in Ephesians 4:5, and then again in Ephesians 5:26:

Eph 5:25-26 ESV

25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

Cleansed her (the church) by the washing of water with the word.

Clearly a reference to water baptism. You can't hash that any other way.

Those are the only two instances of baptism in Ephesians. So within the immediate context, Paul is speaking in Ephesians 4:4-6 of one baptism in water.

The Nicene Creed clearly supports the idea of water baptism for the remission of sins as Peter and the early church preached. So do you really agree with and hold to the Nicene Creed?

I understand it is just a document made by man to help explain the common faith. It is subject to error and not binding in any way. But if you say you agree with it, then do you really or just the parts that you accept and line up with YOUR UNDERSTANDING of scripture?
 
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ByTheSpirit

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310 times in the Bible the word covenant is recorded. 310! (as per BibleGateway specific search of the entire bible: covenant)

The first is spoken and enforced with Noah with the sign of the rainbow.

The next major covenant is the Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 17) with the sign of circumcision.

The last covenant of God in scripture is the "eternal covenant" (Jeremiah 32:40; Ezekial 37:26; Hebrews 13:20). This covenant is enforced by the blood of Jesus with the sign of spiritual circumcision, otherwise known as baptism (Colossians 2:11-13).

Hebrews 9:16-22 NIV
16 In the case of a will,[d-alternative interpretation for "will" is covenant, also v17] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

This passage lays out the basics of all God's covenantal dealings. When a covenant is made, blood must be shed for the covenant to be enforced.

Noah made a sacrifice upon God sharing his covenant.
Abraham made a sacrifice upon God sharing his covenant.
Jesus was sacrificed to enforce God's eternal covenant.

Even in modern times, if I have a will (and I should ;) ) that will only takes effect when I die. Death is required to enact the covenant of God. What does this have to do with baptism?

I hinted at this earlier and will do so now. Abraham is the father of all who have faith in God. (Galatians 3:7; Romans 4:16) Actually Paul says in that chapter of Galatians 3, that the promise God made to Abraham in enacting his covenant "that all nations would be blessed through Abraham" would come to us who have faith. (Galatians 3:7-9)

Now what was the sign of the covenant of Abraham? It was circumcision. Now this is important to get before I go any further with this. Abraham believed God and hoped in God before he was circumcised. Scripture also clearly states that God credited Abraham as righteous before the sign of circumcision was given.

What is circumcision to us in the New Covenant? Clearly we don't need to be physically circumcised to be acceptable to God. Well in Colossians 2, Paul writes about this topic:

Colossians 2:11-13 NIV
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

The flesh as written above is in reference to the old nature, the body of flesh, what we are told and commanded to put to death (Galatians 5:16-25).

What does this passage say actually? Allow me to start in verse 13.

You were dead in sin and the uncircumcision of your flesh.

DEAD, as in not alive. You can not be alive in Christ if you are uncircumcised in your flesh.

Philippians 3:3
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—

We as believers are referred to as the circumcision, not a physical circumcision (Paul denounced that just the previous verse), but a Spiritual circumcision (Romans 2:29). The circumcision of Christ! (Colossians 2:11)

Now circumcision itself (talking the physical act) is the process where the flesh of the foreskin is cut away. This is important to understand in that circumcision represents a cutting away of the flesh, even the physical act. Now God, when he enacted the 2nd and eternal covenant, switched this process from being a physical one to a spiritual one.

Romans 2:28-29
28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

Philippians 3:3
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—

It is not against God's nature to do such a thing. To switch a physical manifestation for a spiritual one.

The Temple, the most holy building of the Old Covenant, was translated from a physical building into a spiritual one, the Church (1 Peter 2:5-9; 1 Cor 3:16-17, 6:19-20)

Acts 7:48-51
48 “However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:

49 “‘Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me?
says the Lord.
Or where will my resting place be?
50 Has not my hand made all these things?’
51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Now in that scripture, Stephen is speaking to the Sanhedrin (Paul was there on that day). He makes a statement that sends the audience into a murderous frenzy, God does not reside in the Temple any longer! Then he goes one step further and read what Stephen said. The Sanhedrin were uncircumcised!

Now that's a ridiculous idea. Of course they were circumcised, they were the Jewish leaders that were model citizens of the Law. But what does Stephen say about that? They were uncircumcised in their hearts and ears. Circumcision of the heart, inner circumcision, the circumcision that enables us to love the Lord God as He desires (Deuteronomy 30:6) is what God wants now.

After all, God is spirit and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth! (John 4:24)

God requires spiritual circumcision, the cutting away of the body of the flesh, "the circumcision of Christ" (Colossians 2:11) now. But as with all things, even this circumcision only has power if it is backed by faith. Because this circumcision is done when we are baptized! Read Colossians 2:11-12 again...

Colossians 2:11-12
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Having been buried... To be continued in next post!
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Continued from Post #8

Romans 6:3-4
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Baptized into Christ. Into his death & burial IN ORDER THAT (circle those words in your bible) as Christ was raised... we too may live a new life.

Now where in the Bible does it talk about new life?

2 Corinthians 5:17 - If anyone is in Christ they are a new creation!

This is the power of baptism, the beginning point of the new birth and regeneration. Baptism.

Again, allow me to explain. Many of you point to the thief on the cross as proof one doesn't need baptism to be saved, and while I may disagree with the reason, I have already stated and believe baptism isn't absolutely required for salvation.

I do believe though that one must be baptized in obedience to Christ if they ever want to walk in the fullness of his blessing. What blessing is that? Deliverance from sin!

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery

John 8:36
So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Paul in Romans 6-7 (even 8 to an extent) teaches about this. Now for brevity sake I won't post all of that, but allow me to touch on it exactly. Paul started that portion of Romans with the reference to entering into Christ's death and burial in baptism. He pointed out that as Christ died to sin and it's power so he could live for God, we too should reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God because (back to verse 3-4) we have been baptized into Christ's death.

Even in chapter 7 of Romans Paul writes in verses 4-6:

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

We died to the law through the body of Christ (being baptized into Him - Romans 6:3-4; Gal 3:27) so we could bear fruit for God serving him in the new way of the Spirit! (John 4:24) Remember, God is Spirit and those who worship him (and serve him as priests) must do so in spirit and in truth!

This is all accomplished in baptism!

Why do you think so many in America profess Christ (latest figures put the number at around 80%) and yet there is so much wickedness and sin? And there is a LOT of sin that grieves God in this godless nation, and perhaps even around the world.

I'm not going to say definitively that just by baptizing people that would change, but I will say from scripture, the moment a person is crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20) and sin's power over them is rendered null and void is when they are baptized. Because in baptism we join with Christ and clothe ourselves with Him (Romans 6:3-4; Gal 3:27; Col 2:11-13).

Modern evangelism negates baptism and most probably never are baptized for whatever reason.

Now sure, God can see the heart of an individual and see if their faith is genuine or not. I already stated and again affirm that people can in circumstances enter heaven I believe without being baptized. So I'm not saying baptism is necessary for salvation. Rather, I do believe baptism is a necessary element of being freed from sin and it's destructive power (Romans 6:3-14, 7:4-6; Gal 3:27, 5:1), so that we can serve God in the Spirit as he desires (Deut 30:6; John 4:24; Col 2:11-12; Phil 3:3).

This is all done when we receive "the circumcision of Christ" as recorded in Colossians 2:11, when we are baptized into his death and burial so we can walk in new life as he did. Remember, according to scripture you can not be alive to God while uncircumcised in the flesh. This circumcision is accomplished (rather is started) in water baptism and is a continual process after that of being sanctified by the Spirit.
 
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LinkH

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The Bible never says that baptism is 'an outward sign of an inward work'. It never says anything about baptism being a public confession of faith either. How many people saw the Ethiopian eunuch get baptized? Two?

The Bible does talk about washing away sins through baptism
Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'
(NIV)

We are also buried and raised with Christ in baptism:
Colossians 2:12
having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead
(NIV)
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Now I've already commented AT LENGTH on the discipleship aspect of water baptism. Instead of copying and pasting that stuff here (which is a bit redundant), I will just copy the link to the thread here so you can click over and read that information.

To summarize what I said in case you haven't read it, and hopefully will. The "Great Commission" of Matthew 28:18-20 is the basis for most Christian missions. In that Jesus tells his followers to go and make disciples. The command, the only command of that passage is "Make disciples", I outline my view of this in the thread found at the link below. Then in order to make disciples, Jesus gives us two things the need be done; baptize and teach. It is in that context I present water baptism as it pertains to Christian discipleship.

Link to the Great Commission thread (Water Baptism portion is post #4, but please read it if you can)
http://www.christianforums.com/t7858037/
 
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AndrewStrobel

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I love the discussion, and from my personal experience, I was saved and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit during conversion, and 5 months later, I was convicted by Him to get water baptized. I know I was saved before this. I am saved by GRACE through FAITH, which is a gift from God. His blood shed and His resurrection given to me as revelation is what saves me. Thank you Jesus!

Now, I did get water baptized, and wanted to be baptized so that I could "fulfill all righteousness" like He says. If Jesus did it, I want to do it but the baptism itself didn't save me, and my sins were forgoten by Him long before I took that dunk in water.

People can get religious and try to "understand" all these things and tell me I am wrong, but the changes He made in me and my love for Him after He showed me how much He loved me, even while I was a sinner is what makes me know that I was a new man, long before I got in the water.

I didn't get saved in a church, I was saved by myself in my house and spent a whole month face to face with Jesus Christ the righteous.

Like I said, I support water baptism, but that is not what saves a person, we are saved by faith, which again... is a gift from God. His blood is the propitiation for my sins, my obedience is just a sign that I belong to Him, and that He has made me new.

So yes, get water baptized and encourage people to do it, but my belief and conviction is that we are saved when we believe that Jesus Christ died for us to save us from our sins. This is a supernatural act that Jesus gives us, it is impossible to believe in Jesus and His resurrection unless He reveals that to us. It is against "everything human" in us to believe the gospel.

I hope you all have a very blessed week, Praise the Lord for my brothers and sisters in Christ! Hallelujah!
 
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Alithis

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I love the discussion, and from my personal experience, I was saved and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit during conversion, and 5 months later, I was convicted by Him to get water baptized. I know I was saved before this. I am saved by GRACE through FAITH, which is a gift from God. His blood shed and His resurrection given to me as revelation is what saves me. Thank you Jesus!

Now, I did get water baptized, and wanted to be baptized so that I could "fulfill all righteousness" like He says. If Jesus did it, I want to do it but the baptism itself didn't save me, and my sins were forgoten by Him long before I took that dunk in water.

People can get religious and try to "understand" all these things and tell me I am wrong, but the changes He made in me and my love for Him after He showed me how much He loved me, even while I was a sinner is what makes me know that I was a new man, long before I got in the water.

I didn't get saved in a church, I was saved by myself in my house and spent a whole month face to face with Jesus Christ the righteous.

Like I said, I support water baptism, but that is not what saves a person, we are saved by faith, which again... is a gift from God. His blood is the propitiation for my sins, my obedience is just a sign that I belong to Him, and that He has made me new.

So yes, get water baptized and encourage people to do it, but my belief and conviction is that we are saved when we believe that Jesus Christ died for us to save us from our sins. This is a supernatural act that Jesus gives us, it is impossible to believe in Jesus and His resurrection unless He reveals that to us. It is against "everything human" in us to believe the gospel.

I hope you all have a very blessed week, Praise the Lord for my brothers and sisters in Christ! Hallelujah!

great post .
conversationally - how saved would you feel if once you came to a knowledge of the call to be water baptized ..and .. came under the conviction to do so ..
IF -you had from that day forth refused to do so .. (i cant imagine any one actually wanting to refuse once they had truly known his love ( :clap: ) )

id say it would be an awful burden of conviction to bear .
But as iv said before of water baptism ..a true sign that the grace of God is at work in us is the activation of our faith displayed in obedience :)
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Thought you said the last thread you did on this topic was the last one on baptism ??

They closed it for various reasons. So I opened one to rehash things... It's simple math 1 closed (rather all were closed) + 1 added (after a review with mods) now there is just this one... :)

Did you actually read any of it?
 
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geetrue

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Baptism is just an unction of the Lord ...

Unction is the moment the Holy Spirit comes upon you like for instance the pastor says something wrong and you get up and walk out of the church. A little too far out to believe that this could be a demon too, uh?

But for the moment of truth God gives us unction's all day long for example to pick up this keyboard and add to this thread was an unction of the Lord.

If baptism is available in a new church you just started going to and you heed the call to go forward for Baptism in the new church doesn't mean that you were unsaved in the church you were in that didn't believe in Baptism.

Saved is saved ... the speed bump I see in all of this is thinking that it is by faith conjured up all by yourselves,

Nope it's in the unction the moment of God's grace on your poor miserable soul to do the right thing.

Romans 4:16
"So people receive God’s promise by having faith.
This happens so the promise can be a free gift".


You know very well that faith is a gift as all of the gifts of God they are given to each one has God decides.

First the gift from God and it is by grace, okay.

If you argue this point then you did not heed the unction to receive the truth.

Come on ByTheSpirit your to smart to be stubborn :cool:
 
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ByTheSpirit

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No... saving faith does not come from God. If it did then all people would be saved because God wants all to be saved (2 Peter 3:9). Each one must decide for themselves if they are going to believe or not.

Salvation is not by grace, it is by faith. God in his grace saves those who have faith.

But faith is NEVER acceptable without some outward demonstration. Most accept the alter call/sinner's prayer as that demonstration. I don't, I believe baptism is the scriptural pattern. Why does Acts not record one single instance of a sinner's prayer.

For instance, in Acts 2, the Holy Spirit had just fallen. Peter was freshly filled with the Spirit and preaches one of the best sermons ever. 3,000 people respond. They ask him, "What shall we do [to be saved]?" What was his response?

Not, you don't need to do anything because God has already saved you.
Not, pray Jesus into your heart.
Not, God has predestined some of you for faith so tough luck to those he has condemned already...

Peter told them to repent and be baptized so they could receive the Holy Spirit. The SAME DAY he receives the Holy Spirit, a large crowd asks him what is necessary for salvation, and through the Holy Spirit (read that again: Through the Holy Spirit) Peter says; Repent & be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit.

That is scripture, I'm not making that up.
 
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LinkH

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No... saving faith does not come from God. If it did then all people would be saved because God wants all to be saved (2 Peter 3:9).

Even for a non-Calvinist, your conclusion doesn't seem to make sense. All we have was given us by God. All of our abilities, even our decision making abilities. And faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. And we don't create that. The ability to believe comes from God.

Salvation is not by grace, it is by faith.

Paul says it is by grace through faith.
 
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FoundInGrace

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They closed it for various reasons. So I opened one to rehash things... It's simple math 1 closed (rather all were closed) + 1 added (after a review with mods) now there is just this one... :)

Did you actually read any of it?

Ok ... but somehow I think you will probably post another one then another one ;-)

I didnt actually read any of it because you said the last one was the last one...
 
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