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Was the Protestant split from Rome ever justified?

sparow

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That's objectively false. The Greek katholikos means "according to the whole", it does not describe some kind of "universalism", but rather speaks of the Christian Church in its entirety, its wholeness. There was the Church in Rome, the Church in Corinth, the Church in Antioch; but these are local expressions of the Church, that is, the Church catholic.

If you're going to spread misinformation, at least try and do a more convincing job of it.

-CryptoLutheran


Words don't determine the matter; under Roman Government authority, Christian and pagan religions were blended into one. Apart from what God is doing, sorting sheep from Goats, no unblending has occurred.
 
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sparow

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You are asking the wrong question. The real question is of course was the RC split from Orthodoxy ever justified? The answer seems to be in the negative.

I don't know why that split occurred; I have heard that at the time there were three Pope coexisting and none of the three groups would accept the other Popes and split over the election of the Pope. Two split from the Papacy and the Papacy is primarily Roman Government; there were good reasons to split. But all of these are traditions of men Churches; the have the faith of men and not the Faith of Jesus.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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I don't know why that split occurred; I have heard that at the time there were three Pope coexisting and none of the three groups would accept the other Popes and split over the election of the Pope. Two split from the Papacy and the Papacy is primarily Roman Government; there were good reasons to split. But all of these are traditions of men Churches; the have the faith of men and not the Faith of Jesus.

Are you saying the Orthodox and Catholics are not authentically Christian?
 
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GreekOrthodox

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I don't know why that split occurred; I have heard that at the time there were three Pope coexisting and none of the three groups would accept the other Popes and split over the election of the Pope. Two split from the Papacy and the Papacy is primarily Roman Government; there were good reasons to split. But all of these are traditions of men Churches; the have the faith of men and not the Faith of Jesus.

Study some history on the Great Schism of 1054. The three Popes occurs in the 14th century and had nothing to do with the Eastern church
 
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sparow

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Catholicism and its derivations is a Neo-Circumcision sect which tinkers with the gospel as James did in Acts 15, imposing its own anti-scriptural regulations upon the Christian community making people slaves to Catholic Canon law which has evolved through the many Catholic Councils over the centuries. It mishandles Paul's writings and much of the rest of Scripture to justify its salvation by works soteriology. Paul writes that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Such is Catholicism

I see James more in line with Christ than Paul; James epistles oppose the views of Paul. I don't see James involved with a new circumcision, Paul yes. Circumcision would require maximum faith and conviction, James was allowing the matter to be postponed.

This may interest you, the author may not be Christion but he is a Professor and Theologian with a PHD: http://www.barriewilson.com/pdf/Taking-Paul-at-His-Word.pdf
 
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John Hyperspace

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But I do know which is right
The answer is very easy.

Jesus clearly gives the "keys of the kingdom" to Peter Alone - a role we know from the OT is a "prime minister" type role with succession. A role in a Davidic kingdom given to a single person not a group. Jesus makes him alone the rock on which he built his church, and asks him alone to "tend his sheep".

Okay but now you're interpreting the scripture, right? And you know your interpretation of those passages is correct, how? I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm not saying it's right: I'm simply saying, you're in no better position to anyone else at this point. You're interpreting scripture just like every Protestant. You're engaging in "sola versea" right now, are you not?

So wherever Peter and his successor is, there is the true church.

Yet I see nothing concerning Jesus saying to Peter, "To you and all your successors I give the keys" so...

Orthodox has a similar problem all others do - it is the name for a group of denominations, (not a single denomination ) of many both autocephalous and autonomous churches that do not accept a primary authority, so do not agree with each other on some issues. Some accept some councils, others accept others eg Chalcedonian/non chalcedonian. All have made their own "popes" Some are larger than others.

Yet the schism is there, isn't it? There are many such churches, the schism of tradition isn't soley Catholic and Orthodox; it's greater than those two. And their tradition and doctrine provides similar interpretation of scripture to show that they are the true church. In the end, there is no recourse in citing tradition as some "sure authority" to the "true church" and every tradition-based church suffers from the same schismatic problem as protestantism. It seems to me that God in His wisdom has pulled the rug out from under the "sure tradition" tradition long ago.

The point is when you lose the source of ultimate authority, there is bound to be drift. Because orthodox did not lose tradition, or lose the teaching of early councils, it has not become as wayward as Luther and all the reformers that followed. But it cannot be the true church for the first reason given.

The authority of the Orthodox Church interprets the scripture differently than the Catholic Church, and so your "it cannot be the true church for the first reason given" is just an appeal to interpretation of scripture which may or may not be correct. You only think it is correct because your church beleives it so; the same reason Protestant sects believe their interpretation is correct while other Protestant churches are not.

The exegetical cart wheels used to deny the rock of the church was Peter would be laughable, were they not so serious. All hermeneutic rules are broken by those seeking to pretend it was "peters confession" or such errant nonsense, to avoid the obvious truth. Peter was the Rock!. God has chosen a variety of others in different eras to lead and represent his church on earth: for example Abraham was made "father" of the church given that name by God! Moses led - indeed we see that "moses seat" referred in the NT was a source of truth.

Okay but again you're engaging in the same interpretive exercise as any Protestant. I'm not saying, you can't interpret scripture; but that your practice is the same practice of every Protestant which causes "schisms", so you're in the exact same boat as they. You can't fall back to an appeal to tradition as some "final authority" when tradition itself is "schismatic": if the Catholic church was the one-and-only traditional church, then your argument would be reasonable; but it isn't and so it isn't.

And in taking "the book alone" you are taking the path that launched 10000 schisms.

I would reply that by taking "the book with tradition" you are taking the path that launched 1000 schisms out of the trailhead that launched 100 schisms. I'd also note that there's no support that "sola scriptura" is the actual cause of the schisms. By way of analogue, I talk to many Protestants and many times their interpretation will be schismatic to mine, and the cause of the schism isn't "sola scriptura" at all. The cause of the schism is that they haven't even read the scripture in depth; they haven't studied it in depth. They have a cursory knowledge of a smattering of books and passages, based on what they have been taught listening to some "authority" in a pulpit who likewise has not studied the scripture in-depth but went to some cursory college based on tradition and so forth.

So when you blame "sola scriptura" for the schisms in the church, I dispute that and say, your proposition needs supporting evidence to be considered reasonable. It's reasonable to claim that schisms are being caused by plain, old-fashioned, lack of study or "ignora scriptura"

Sola scriptura, is neither logical, biblical, historical or evidential. In short it is a reformation falsehood.

Things are easy to say; but support for claims is what makes a claim reasonable, instead of baseless opinion. I see no support for the above claim.
 
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DingDing

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Are you saying the Orthodox and Catholics are not authentically Christian?
I think there is a legitimate question as to whether either the Orthodox or the Catholics represented the original 1st century church.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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I think there is a legitimate question as to whether either the Orthodox or the Catholics represented the original 1st century church.

They certainly have continuity with the 4th century church and thus with the majority of Christian martyrs.
 
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sparow

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Sparow, "Was Protestantism ever Justified"

Sparow, the answer is No. Protestantism was never justified.

Here is how you know it was not Justified by Christ, look at the chaos it has brought since Martin Luther, until today and counting, how many Protestant churchesss, we now have, all disagreeing with one another, However, YET ALL agreeing with one another, against the Catholic Church.

Jesus Christ, is not a God of Chaos, but of Order.

The matter is subjective; for the Roman Church the Reformation was a dose of Epson Salts: for the Lutherans it was helpful but they didn't come far enough out of Rome; overall the split assisted the eventual fall of the Papacy when Napoleon put the Pope in prison. Have you heard of Ecumenicalism, most of Protestantism are coming back. Did you watch the you tube in the first post?
 
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sparow

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Are you saying the Orthodox and Catholics are not authentically Christian?

The word Christian is always a problem; Christian is not authentically defined. The Catholic Church is fundamentally Pagan; is the composite of the Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman pagan religions. Where are God's people; find Jezebel riding on the back of the beast; to the direction of this lady God says come out of her my people.

It is not for me to judge people but the ones who have the faith of Jesus are few indeed.
 
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pdudgeon

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There are impending changes to Lutheran and some other Protestant denominations doctrine during 2017 that could lead to the end of Protestantism as we know it. This you tube speaks for two hours on the changes to Lutheran doctrine to bring Lutherans back to Catholicism:

Was Protestantism ever justified?
if they could come back home to Rome, repentant sons and daughters,
it would be wonderful.
 
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samir

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nahh .they protested romes church and the errors of men -i mean come on lol your "church " was teaching people they could BUY$$ their ancestors salvation long after they had died in their unrepentant sin and 98 other atrocities for $funds $ - .. not the church of Jesus . his ones not based in any one place -he dwells by his spirit in the hearts of all those who have his spirit in them

Your pastor lied to you if that's what he told you. The RCC never taught people they could BUY$$ their ancestors salvation long after they had died in their unrepentant sin. I find it interesting that anti-Catholics have to make up stuff about what the RCC taught centuries ago because they're unable to refute Catholic teaching. Such slander only affirms the reputation of the Catholic church.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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4th century? So not 1st century? Kind of a gap there.

There is ample evidence to suggest continuity wiht the 1st century. For example, the epistles of St. Ignatius the Martyr or St. Clement, or the Didache.

The word Christian is always a problem; Christian is not authentically defined. The Catholic Church is fundamentally Pagan; is the composite of the Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman pagan religions. Where are God's people; find Jezebel riding on the back of the beast; to the direction of this lady God says come out of her my people.

It is not for me to judge people but the ones who have the faith of Jesus are few indeed.

This is of course categorically untrue and also conveys a lack of knowledge regarding the Hellenic and Semitic pagan religions and the dualist Zoroastrian religion of ancient Persia, which is in many respects very similiar to Judaism and Christianity.
 
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JellyQuest

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Your pastor lied to you if that's what he told you. The RCC never taught people they could BUY$$ their ancestors salvation long after they had died in their unrepentant sin. I find it interesting that anti-Catholics have to make up stuff about what the RCC taught centuries ago because they're unable to refute Catholic teaching. Such slander only affirms the reputation of the Catholic church.
haha its in the history books . it didn't come from a pastor .. geuss someone lied tro you huh
 
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