Was the Protestant split from Rome ever justified?

[jimmyjimmy]

Thats why they left.

A reading of the entire chapter reveals why they left.

But why do you put limits on God? If that is what Jesus wants to do...who are you to rationalise in your far lower intelligence than his, why he cannot? He made the universe. He can do anything. He never banned anyone drinking HIS blood, indeed he asks you to!

God cannot do several things. He cannot be inconsistent. He can't command cannibalism and condemn it simultaneously.

It is fascinating that catholics always take a more literal view of scripture than others.

I never said they did. I said that they are irrational inconsistent in that regard. If we must believe Jesus is literally a loaf of bread and jug of wine, then we must also believe that He is a gate, and a vine, and a light, and a shepherd.

Jesus said: "I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture."

This surely means that Jesus is a literal and physical door, so we must find this door and walk through it/him. Then we MUST eat grass. If we do not eat grass we WILL NOT be saved, for Jesus said, that we will "find pasture". . .

Lastly, when faith in Christ's work is replaced or added to with superstition, sacraments, penance, and other "good" works, one has become self-reliant, which is not a unique idea. Adam had it long ago, and Cain succeeded him.

There are two types of people in the world, those who trust in the righteousness of Christ, and those who trust in their own righteousness. This is the message of the Bible from cover to cover. Only the former will be spared judgment.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Catholicism means Universalism or mixing faiths up into a mess;

That's objectively false. The Greek katholikos means "according to the whole", it does not describe some kind of "universalism", but rather speaks of the Christian Church in its entirety, its wholeness. There was the Church in Rome, the Church in Corinth, the Church in Antioch; but these are local expressions of the Church, that is, the Church catholic.

If you're going to spread misinformation, at least try and do a more convincing job of it.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Paul Yohannan]

There are impending changes to Lutheran and some other Protestant denominations doctrine during 2017 that could lead to the end of Protestantism as we know it. This you tube speaks for two hours on the changes to Lutheran doctrine to bring Lutherans back to Catholicism:

Was Protestantism ever justified?

You are asking the wrong question. The real question is of course was the RC split from Orthodoxy ever justified? The answer seems to be in the negative.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

A reading of the entire chapter reveals why they left.



God cannot do several things. He cannot be inconsistent. He can't command cannibalism and condemn it simultaneously.



I never said they did. I said that they are irrational inconsistent in that regard. If we must believe Jesus is literally a loaf of bread and jug of wine, then we must also believe that He is a gate, and a vine, and a light, and a shepherd.

Jesus said: "I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture."

This surely means that Jesus is a literal and physical door, so we must find this door and walk through it/him. Then we MUST eat grass. If we do not eat grass we WILL NOT be saved, for Jesus said, that we will "find pasture". . .

Lastly, when faith in Christ's work is replaced or added to with superstition, sacraments, penance, and other "good" works, one has become self-reliant, which is not a unique idea. Adam had it long ago, and Cain succeeded him.

There are two types of people in the world, those who trust in the righteousness of Christ, and those who trust in their own righteousness. This is the message of the Bible from cover to cover. Only the former will be spared judgment.

Alas your argument ignores John 6. If we take John 6 in combination with the institution narrative then it becomes evident the Eucharistic doctrine is distinct from the metaphorical analogies used by our Lord elsewhere.

He is however literally the Light in a unique way (see: hesychasm).

 

[bcbsr]

There are impending changes to Lutheran and some other Protestant denominations doctrine during 2017 that could lead to the end of Protestantism as we know it. This you tube speaks for two hours on the changes to Lutheran doctrine to bring Lutherans back to Catholicism:

Was Protestantism ever justified?

Catholicism and its derivations is a Neo-Circumcision sect which tinkers with the gospel as James did in Acts 15, imposing its own anti-scriptural regulations upon the Christian community making people slaves to Catholic Canon law which has evolved through the many Catholic Councils over the centuries. It mishandles Paul's writings and much of the rest of Scripture to justify its salvation by works soteriology. Paul writes that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Such is Catholicism

 

[JoeP222w]

Because only by the infallible action of a church council do you even have the bible!

Simply not true. God preserved and gave us His word, not the Church (Rome or otherwise). The Church did not decide on the Canon of Scripture, and the Canon of Scripture was closed 100 years before Roman Catholicism even existed.

 

[RBPerry]

Interesting video.

I say no because sola scriptura was the doctrine that launched 10000 schisms.





I put the following answer on a similar thread which focussed on luther, also anticatholicism. It is just a catholic view...mine!

"
When most denominations and non denominationals disagree with each other on almost all aspects of doctrine, it is suprising that so many unite in a hatred of catholicism. Indeed the accusation of "non christian" about catholics is simply not supportable. We clearly accept the Creed!

I am only too aware of the hatred and misinformation, as an anglican turned evangelical before coming home to Rome , a journey which took a couple of decades, I saw first hand the nasty things that were said about catholics, most of which were born of either illinformed or deliberate misinterpretation of what catholicism stood for. And in my (then) ignorance, sadly I believed what these evangelicals said. It was only when I researched it years later, all the evangelical arguments fell apart.

But there's the thing. Martin Luther is in essence responsible for the doctrine of sola scriptura, which in essence empowered every one to make up their own interpretation of the bible, and in that very act Luther launched 10000 schisms. Because without a source of authority - then from baptism, eucharist, salvation, clergy, morality, sacraments, divorce...each have many mutually exclusive interpretations. You name it, protestants disagree on it. If you don't like the present doctrine, schism to form yet another. None of these can be the true church: because truth is unique, and they all disagree on their version of truth.

The reality is sola scriptura is unsupportable every which way, either historically , biblically, evidentially, even logically as I will now show: If "sola scriptura" is a truth, then for scripture to contain all truth, scripture would have to say so and it does not, so it is self refuting in basic logic.

Indeed scripture itself says sola scriptura is false. It says "the pillar of truth is the CHURCH" which is the "household of God" and in OT speak that means the physical manifestation of the church, not just a spiritual association. Repeat..the pillar of truth is the church! If God had wanted to say scripture he would have done. He did not say scripture, he said Church!

It is fascinating that even reformationists / protestants dont agree with sola scriptura even though they say they do. Martin Luther recognised that "all milkmaids now had their own doctrine" so gradually "articles" and "confessions" and similar documents were added to scripture for reformationists to resolve ambiguities. Yet in doing so, they were adding the very "tradition" they sought to destroy! Except - in the case of reformationists - these traditions were definitely man made in the years after 1500! Somewhat hypocritical. The ones who belong to no denomination , blast the pope and magisterium for "infallible interpretation" , yet all claim the very same power for themseleves to discern truth from scripture: they all make themselves pope!

So why is it reformationists/ protestants disagree on all doctrine? What is the missing piece? The answer is two fold.
First Authority - that is of the apostolic succession to bind and loose, ie interprete doctrinal matters, as done at councils without which we would not even have the present bible, yet protestants dont seem to acknowledge how they rely on that very authority!

Second is tradition. As St Paul tells us the faith was "handed down" (which is the meaning of tradition) by "word of mouth and letter" indeed that was an inevitable fact, because there was no NT for early christians!" So sola scriptura is historically false as the basis of christianity. Jesus gave us apostles, not a book. The book came later.

So what it is that the early christians taught and handed down?
Easily visible in the early writings. eg read ignatius of antioch letter to smyrneans (polycarps church, disciple of john the apostle) and speaking in the decades after Christ (he lived AD 35-108.

You see clearly in the writings of that generation. A liturgical, sacramental church that believed in real presence, with a clergy of bishops in apostolic succession and that only they or their appointees could perform the eucharist, that believed in sacraments and infant baptism (see ireanus). In short the catholic church. There was no other. Until the easterns decided to schism, the only other sects got their names because of heresies eg "aryans" "gnostics" "donatists". There were no denominations. There was just one catholic church! It got the name Roman, only when easterns decided to do their own thing.

Sure it grew. It was an acorn that became a flourishing Oak.
The acorn sapling and oak tree dont look the same, but they are the same species! For sure bad people have done many bad things, and since RCC is so big, many catholics, indeed bishops, indeed popes have done bad things. Thats why we need saving! But the doctrine has barely changed in all that time. Whilst all others have descended in to moral and sexual populism, RCC has alone held on to the beliefs all shared less than a century ago!

So all need to consider two or three things.
1/ When jesus said his church would be one and the "gates of hell would not prevail" against it. Is that really consistent with total apostasyin year.. (pick a random number between year 0 and 1500). Do you really think Jesus cared so little for his church he would let it go off the rails for a millenium? Of course an apostasy needs a "bad guy" . Many vote for Constantine. Yet read the "life of anthony" by st anathasius (of aryan, creed council fame) whose ministry spanned constantines reign and you see nothing actually changed!. So it was the apostasy that never was!
2/ When the "pillar and foundation of truth is the church" which church did Jesus mean (and by the way it is a physical church, that is the meaning of "household of God"
3/ Jesus made Peter the rock of the church with an inheritied Davidic office (see the time of Hezekiah) similar to prime minister "keys of the kingdom" referred in OT. None of the exegetic cart wheels used to deny that make any grammatical or logical sense. Reformationists are obliged to find a way around Peters authority, but they have yet to come up with any interpretation that denies it, other than ignoring hermeneutic rules!
Jesus asked Peter to "tend his sheep". RCC can clearly say how that scripture is fulfilled in the church. How can others say that about theirs?

It was arguments such as those, that in the end brought me back to Rome.



I think all protestants should read "suprised by truth" Madrid. It is just a collection of anecdotes, by fundamentalists and others who came back to Rome. It presents The questions they could not find answers in reformationism, and how catholicism solves them. And they discovered that most of "anticatholic" stuff, is either deliberate or accidental misunderstanding. And in almost all cases takes the literal meaning of scripture.

First of all if anyone hates Catholics, they don't understand Christ greatest commandment.
Why did our family leave the Catholic denomination. During the depression my grandparents lost a child right after birth. The priest came and said they would pray the child out of hell for thirty five dollars. The priest was thrown out of the house and my grandparents never attended church again. My grandfather turned to the Masons.
When I look at the dark ages and what was done, I could in no way be associated with a group with that kind of history. How many people did the Catholics have the nights of Templar murder?
I know there are many wonderful Catholic people that love God, want to live their lives as they believe God would have them. I consider Catholics Christians as I do us protestants. Christianity is in the heart, not the denomination. It is my belief, I'm to love all people, and yes at times it is difficult, but that is what Christ wants from us.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Regarding the thread title: If we are talking about division in the body of Christ, was the Roman split from the Jerusalem church ever justified? The first 15 bishops of Jerusalem were descendants of Jesus' family, starting with his brother James.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Orthodox has a similar problem all others do - it is the name for a group of denominations, (not a single denomination ) of many both autocephalous and autonomous churches that do not accept a primary authority, so do not agree with each other on some issues. Some accept some councils, others accept others eg Chalcedonian/non chalcedonian. All have made their own "popes" Some are larger than others.

Huh? We're not a group of denominations and the churches that make up the Eastern Orthodox Church, we are in full communion with each other. The Oriental Orthodox are equally united with each other.

 

[JellyQuest]

I think you had better study scripture and history!

Scripture clearly states the "pillar of truth is the church" which it states is the "house of God" - and the OT makes the meaning of "house of God" clear: it is the physical manifestation of the church. So the church is NOT just a spiritual association.

Furthermore, you cannot regard your new testament inspiredif you do not believe in the infallibility of a church expressed by decision of a council centuries after Christ. You cannot have it both ways! If you reject the authority of the church, you also reject the new testament!

I am also sure you would be horrified by the views handed down to and expressed by those who formed the nicean creed and ratified the new testament. For example - They were staunch advocates of the invocation of saints and the intercession of Mary . You seem to want to take their authority on what is the bible, then wholly disregard what they thought it meant, which is part of the basis they chose the books they did, and rejected others as heresy!

As for paid indulgencies, the Pope himself spoke clearly against the practice at a council some years after luthers hissy fit ( which practice was never an infallible teaching ) but sadly Luther threw his toys out of the pram, before accept that RCC is so big and lumbering and slow it takes time to pronounce on any matter.

Advocates of Luther are not fond of echoing his later writings where he sincerely regretted having let Pandora out of the box.

RCC is made of people. People do bad things, including popes.
Thats why we all need salvation. But the fact that catholics have done a few hideous things, has no bearing on whether it is the true church! Jesus came to save sinners, not the righteous!

The mark of the true church is that it still believes what it has fundamentally believed for two millenia. And where every other has blown with the winds of moral , marriage and sexual populism, RCC alone has stood firm. Because the truth does not change.

clever scripture twisting .. guess what, any pilar is only as straight as the foundation it is set upon the pillar of rome's church does not sit upon the rock of jesus . by its own declaration it sits on peter . so your pilar is crooked from its very foundation and its pillar leans it ain't straight .so for a milania it has been crooked and remains crooked and always will be because it is not founded upon Jesus /.. but peter . by its own confession.

people do bad things ? john states those who continue in the practice of sin are not of god

 

[JellyQuest]

Regarding the thread title: If we are talking about division in the body of Christ, was the Roman split from the Jerusalem church ever justified? The first 15 bishops of Jerusalem were descendants of Jesus' family, starting with his brother James.

now there is a point .

 

[JellyQuest]

.

 

[PanDeVida]

There are impending changes to Lutheran and some other Protestant denominations doctrine during 2017 that could lead to the end of Protestantism as we know it. This you tube speaks for two hours on the changes to Lutheran doctrine to bring Lutherans back to Catholicism:

Was Protestantism ever justified?

Sparow, "Was Protestantism ever Justified"

Sparow, the answer is No. Protestantism was never justified.

Here is how you know it was not Justified by Christ, look at the chaos it has brought since Martin Luther, until today and counting, how many Protestant churchesss, we now have, all disagreeing with one another, However, YET ALL agreeing with one another, against the Catholic Church.

Jesus Christ, is not a God of Chaos, but of Order.

 

[JoeP222w]

Protestantism was never justified.

Assertion without proof is merely an opinion.

Here is how you know it was not Justified by Christ, look at the chaos it has brought since Martin Luther, until today and counting, how many Protestant churchesss, we now have, all disagreeing with one another,

What a gross mischaracterization. How do you account for the many denominations of Roman Catholicism that do not agree, such as:

American Catholic Church in the United States
American National Catholic Church
Antiochian Catholic Church in America
Argentine Catholic Apostolic Church
Apostolic Catholic Church
Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church
Catholic Charismatic Church of Canada
Catholic Christian Church
Catholic Life Church
Catholic Mariavite Church
Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association
Christ Catholic Church
Ecumenical Catholic Church
Ecumenical Catholic Communion
Evangelical Catholic Church
Fraternité Notre-Dame
Imani Temple African-American Catholic Congregation
Independent Sacramental Movement
Liberal Catholic Church
National Catholic Church of America
Mariavite Church (not to be confused with the Catholic Mariavite Church)
Palmarian Catholic Church
Old Catholic Church
Old Catholic Mariavite Church
Old Roman Catholic Church
Orthodox-Catholic Church of America
Philippine Independent Church
Polish National Catholic Church
Rabelados, traditionalist Catholics in Cape Verde
Reformed Old Catholic Church
St. Stanislaus Kostka Church (St. Louis, Missouri)
Traditionalist Mexican-American Catholic Church
Ukrainian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church

You can't blame those on Protestantism. There is no unity in the Roman Catholic church. That is a false claim.


Protestants do not disagree on the fundamental truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ, that we are saved by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ alone, by His grace alone (not by any form of works), and His sufficient sacrifice at the cross.

Moreover, unity in belief of the adherents has no effect on the truth of God. Nor does abuse of doctrines nullify the truth of God, but simply reveals the sinfulness of man.

 

[Mountainmike]

Hardly scripture twisting. As with so many of these things, Catholicism uses the literal translation, others strain at gnats to avoid the obvious. "The pillar of truth is the church"

clever scripture twisting .. guess what, any pilar is only as straight as the foundation it is set upon the pillar of rome's church does not sit upon the rock of jesus . by its own declaration it sits on peter . so your pilar is crooked from its very foundation and its pillar leans it ain't straight .so for a milania it has been crooked and remains crooked and always will be because it is not founded upon Jesus /.. but peter . by its own confession.

people do bad things ? john states those who continue in the practice of sin are not of god

 

[Mountainmike]

Now read the Roman catechism.
Which is what unites us.

We are United by what we believe, Protestants are divided by it.
The Presbyterians for example are called the split P because of it.
From lutherans to anglicans, the beliefs are so diverse it is hard to know what they believe any more, indeed, the pastor in many cases makes it up as they go along.

Assertion without proof is merely an opinion.



What a gross mischaracterization. How do you account for the many denominations of Roman Catholicism that do not agree, such as:

American Catholic Church in the United States
American National Catholic Church
Antiochian Catholic Church in America
Argentine Catholic Apostolic Church
Apostolic Catholic Church
Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church
Catholic Charismatic Church of Canada
Catholic Christian Church
Catholic Life Church
Catholic Mariavite Church
Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association
Christ Catholic Church
Ecumenical Catholic Church
Ecumenical Catholic Communion
Evangelical Catholic Church
Fraternité Notre-Dame
Imani Temple African-American Catholic Congregation
Independent Sacramental Movement
Liberal Catholic Church
National Catholic Church of America
Mariavite Church (not to be confused with the Catholic Mariavite Church)
Palmarian Catholic Church
Old Catholic Church
Old Catholic Mariavite Church
Old Roman Catholic Church
Orthodox-Catholic Church of America
Philippine Independent Church
Polish National Catholic Church
Rabelados, traditionalist Catholics in Cape Verde
Reformed Old Catholic Church
St. Stanislaus Kostka Church (St. Louis, Missouri)
Traditionalist Mexican-American Catholic Church
Ukrainian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church

You can't blame those on Protestantism. There is no unity in the Roman Catholic church. That is a false claim.


Protestants do not disagree on the fundamental truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ, that we are saved by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ alone, by His grace alone (not by any form of works), and His sufficient sacrifice at the cross.

Moreover, unity in belief of the adherents has no effect on the truth of God. Nor does abuse of doctrines nullify the truth of God, but simply reveals the sinfulness of man.

 

[Mountainmike]

I can only Suggest you study the history of NT And also study how the faith was handed down ( tradition) before the NT existed. The Catholic Church was the only early church
" roman" a label attached only when the eastern schismed away.

The only other sects got named because of heresies e.g. " gnostics" " aryans". The rest was the Catholic Church.

The prolifeeration of schisms is a Protestant thing, post reformation,causes by the false belief in sola scriptura , that all are enabled to decide their own doctrine, with catastrophic results. On every aspect of doctrine, Eucharist, baptism, salvation, priesthood, other sacraments, liturgy, morality, etc etc..you name it Protestants have multiply mutually exclusive beliefs..

Simply not true. God preserved and gave us His word, not the Church (Rome or otherwise). The Church did not decide on the Canon of Scripture, and the Canon of Scripture was closed 100 years before Roman Catholicism even existed.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Every man did what was right in his own eyes, for there was no king in Israel.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

What a gross mischaracterization. How do you account for the many denominations of Roman Catholicism that do not agree, such as:

GIANT LIST

Just to let you know, most of those are some odd schism or some group that used the word Catholic in their name. For example, the Evangelical Catholic Church is made up of two congregations that splintered off of a Lutheran group and use the Liturgy of St. Chrysostom (at least it was when I looked them up about 10 years ago). One other is the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church which is an Eastern rite church which is in full communion with the Catholic Church.

ahhh to be the nitpicker here...

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Assertion without proof is merely an opinion.



What a gross mischaracterization. How do you account for the many denominations of Roman Catholicism that do not agree, such as:

American Catholic Church in the United States
American National Catholic Church
Antiochian Catholic Church in America
Argentine Catholic Apostolic Church
Apostolic Catholic Church
Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church
Catholic Charismatic Church of Canada
Catholic Christian Church
Catholic Life Church
Catholic Mariavite Church
Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association
Christ Catholic Church
Ecumenical Catholic Church
Ecumenical Catholic Communion
Evangelical Catholic Church
Fraternité Notre-Dame
Imani Temple African-American Catholic Congregation
Independent Sacramental Movement
Liberal Catholic Church
National Catholic Church of America
Mariavite Church (not to be confused with the Catholic Mariavite Church)
Palmarian Catholic Church
Old Catholic Church
Old Catholic Mariavite Church
Old Roman Catholic Church
Orthodox-Catholic Church of America
Philippine Independent Church
Polish National Catholic Church
Rabelados, traditionalist Catholics in Cape Verde
Reformed Old Catholic Church
St. Stanislaus Kostka Church (St. Louis, Missouri)
Traditionalist Mexican-American Catholic Church
Ukrainian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church

You can't blame those on Protestantism. There is no unity in the Roman Catholic church. That is a false claim.


Protestants do not disagree on the fundamental truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ, that we are saved by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ alone, by His grace alone (not by any form of works), and His sufficient sacrifice at the cross.

Moreover, unity in belief of the adherents has no effect on the truth of God. Nor does abuse of doctrines nullify the truth of God, but simply reveals the sinfulness of man.

Those denominations are not a part of the Roman Catholic church.