Was the Protestant split from Rome ever justified?

sparow

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There are impending changes to Lutheran and some other Protestant denominations doctrine during 2017 that could lead to the end of Protestantism as we know it. This you tube speaks for two hours on the changes to Lutheran doctrine to bring Lutherans back to Catholicism:

Was Protestantism ever justified?
 
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Mountainmike

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Interesting video.

I say no because sola scriptura was the doctrine that launched 10000 schisms.


There are impending changes to Lutheran and some other Protestant denominations doctrine during 2017 that could lead to the end of Protestantism as we know it. This you tube speaks for two hours on the changes to Lutheran doctrine to bring Lutherans back to Catholicism:

Was Protestantism ever justified?


I put the following answer on a similar thread which focussed on luther, also anticatholicism. It is just a catholic view...mine!

"
When most denominations and non denominationals disagree with each other on almost all aspects of doctrine, it is suprising that so many unite in a hatred of catholicism. Indeed the accusation of "non christian" about catholics is simply not supportable. We clearly accept the Creed!

I am only too aware of the hatred and misinformation, as an anglican turned evangelical before coming home to Rome , a journey which took a couple of decades, I saw first hand the nasty things that were said about catholics, most of which were born of either illinformed or deliberate misinterpretation of what catholicism stood for. And in my (then) ignorance, sadly I believed what these evangelicals said. It was only when I researched it years later, all the evangelical arguments fell apart.

But there's the thing. Martin Luther is in essence responsible for the doctrine of sola scriptura, which in essence empowered every one to make up their own interpretation of the bible, and in that very act Luther launched 10000 schisms. Because without a source of authority - then from baptism, eucharist, salvation, clergy, morality, sacraments, divorce...each have many mutually exclusive interpretations. You name it, protestants disagree on it. If you don't like the present doctrine, schism to form yet another. None of these can be the true church: because truth is unique, and they all disagree on their version of truth.

The reality is sola scriptura is unsupportable every which way, either historically , biblically, evidentially, even logically as I will now show: If "sola scriptura" is a truth, then for scripture to contain all truth, scripture would have to say so and it does not, so it is self refuting in basic logic.

Indeed scripture itself says sola scriptura is false. It says "the pillar of truth is the CHURCH" which is the "household of God" and in OT speak that means the physical manifestation of the church, not just a spiritual association. Repeat..the pillar of truth is the church! If God had wanted to say scripture he would have done. He did not say scripture, he said Church!

It is fascinating that even reformationists / protestants dont agree with sola scriptura even though they say they do. Martin Luther recognised that "all milkmaids now had their own doctrine" so gradually "articles" and "confessions" and similar documents were added to scripture for reformationists to resolve ambiguities. Yet in doing so, they were adding the very "tradition" they sought to destroy! Except - in the case of reformationists - these traditions were definitely man made in the years after 1500! Somewhat hypocritical. The ones who belong to no denomination , blast the pope and magisterium for "infallible interpretation" , yet all claim the very same power for themseleves to discern truth from scripture: they all make themselves pope!

So why is it reformationists/ protestants disagree on all doctrine? What is the missing piece? The answer is two fold.
First Authority - that is of the apostolic succession to bind and loose, ie interprete doctrinal matters, as done at councils without which we would not even have the present bible, yet protestants dont seem to acknowledge how they rely on that very authority!

Second is tradition. As St Paul tells us the faith was "handed down" (which is the meaning of tradition) by "word of mouth and letter" indeed that was an inevitable fact, because there was no NT for early christians!" So sola scriptura is historically false as the basis of christianity. Jesus gave us apostles, not a book. The book came later.

So what it is that the early christians taught and handed down?
Easily visible in the early writings. eg read ignatius of antioch letter to smyrneans (polycarps church, disciple of john the apostle) and speaking in the decades after Christ (he lived AD 35-108.

You see clearly in the writings of that generation. A liturgical, sacramental church that believed in real presence, with a clergy of bishops in apostolic succession and that only they or their appointees could perform the eucharist, that believed in sacraments and infant baptism (see ireanus). In short the catholic church. There was no other. Until the easterns decided to schism, the only other sects got their names because of heresies eg "aryans" "gnostics" "donatists". There were no denominations. There was just one catholic church! It got the name Roman, only when easterns decided to do their own thing.

Sure it grew. It was an acorn that became a flourishing Oak.
The acorn sapling and oak tree dont look the same, but they are the same species! For sure bad people have done many bad things, and since RCC is so big, many catholics, indeed bishops, indeed popes have done bad things. Thats why we need saving! But the doctrine has barely changed in all that time. Whilst all others have descended in to moral and sexual populism, RCC has alone held on to the beliefs all shared less than a century ago!

So all need to consider two or three things.
1/ When jesus said his church would be one and the "gates of hell would not prevail" against it. Is that really consistent with total apostasyin year.. (pick a random number between year 0 and 1500). Do you really think Jesus cared so little for his church he would let it go off the rails for a millenium? Of course an apostasy needs a "bad guy" . Many vote for Constantine. Yet read the "life of anthony" by st anathasius (of aryan, creed council fame) whose ministry spanned constantines reign and you see nothing actually changed!. So it was the apostasy that never was!
2/ When the "pillar and foundation of truth is the church" which church did Jesus mean (and by the way it is a physical church, that is the meaning of "household of God"
3/ Jesus made Peter the rock of the church with an inheritied Davidic office (see the time of Hezekiah) similar to prime minister "keys of the kingdom" referred in OT. None of the exegetic cart wheels used to deny that make any grammatical or logical sense. Reformationists are obliged to find a way around Peters authority, but they have yet to come up with any interpretation that denies it, other than ignoring hermeneutic rules!
Jesus asked Peter to "tend his sheep". RCC can clearly say how that scripture is fulfilled in the church. How can others say that about theirs?

It was arguments such as those, that in the end brought me back to Rome.



I think all protestants should read "suprised by truth" Madrid. It is just a collection of anecdotes, by fundamentalists and others who came back to Rome. It presents The questions they could not find answers in reformationism, and how catholicism solves them. And they discovered that most of "anticatholic" stuff, is either deliberate or accidental misunderstanding. And in almost all cases takes the literal meaning of scripture.
 
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JellyQuest

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There are impending changes to Lutheran and some other Protestant denominations doctrine during 2017 that could lead to the end of Protestantism as we know it. This you tube speaks for two hours on the changes to Lutheran doctrine to bring Lutherans back to Catholicism:

Was Protestantism ever justified?
absolutely it is justified and remains so .just because some modern day people have compromised everything and forsaken truth means nothing .
 
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Mountainmike

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absolutely it is justified and remains so .just because some modern day people have compromised everything and forsaken truth means nothing .

So who do you think has the truth?

When almost all protestants and reformation groups disagree with each other , having many mutually exclusive variants of baptism, salvation, eucharist,other sacraments, clergy, morality, liturgy..you name it, they all disagree on it. Tens of thousands of versions of "truth" when truth itself is unique, so almost all reformationists preach one or more falsehoods - logically that must be true since they preach opposite things.

The problem IS sola scriptura introduced by Luther. A doctrine unsupportable either logically, historically, biblically or evidentially, so launching "customized" "choose your own doctrine" Christianity.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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There are impending changes to Lutheran and some other Protestant denominations doctrine during 2017 that could lead to the end of Protestantism as we know it. This you tube speaks for two hours on the changes to Lutheran doctrine to bring Lutherans back to Catholicism:

Was Protestantism ever justified?

Of course it was justified. It was justified then, and it is justified now. Justified because of issues of justification, in fact.

How can there be unity of spirit with parties adhering to different gospels? Each thinks such of the other.
 
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Radrook

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The touchstone to determining how far any denomination has drifted away from the correct teachings of Christianity is to compare its doctrines to those which were taught during the first century. The greater the difference the less Christian that denomination's teachings are.
 
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Mountainmike

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The touchstone to determining how far any denomination has drifted away from the correct teachings of Christianity is to compare its doctrines to those which were taught during the first century. The greater the difference the less Christian that denomination's teachings are.

Most would be surprised if they looked at the writings of the first christians - those appointed by the apostles - they would discover a liturgical, sacramental church that believed in real presence, appointed bishops needed for the sacraments , even infant baptism. It believed in paradosis ( ie tradition) - "handing down of the faith by word of mouth and letter" . It was certainly NOT sola scriptura as evangelicals understand it., the NT did not exist then. So reading some of the letters is fascinating! It is also believed in the teaching authority of the church.
 
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Radrook

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Most would be surprised if they looked at the writings of the first christians - those appointed by the apostles - they would discover a liturgical, sacramental church that believed in real presence, appointed bishops needed for the sacraments , even infant baptism. It believed in paradosis ( ie tradition) - "handing down of the faith by word of mouth and letter" . It was certainly NOT sola scriptura as evangelicals understand it., the NT did not exist then. So reading some of the letters is fascinating! It is also believed in the teaching authority of the church.
Where does the NT speak about infant baptism? The Apostle Paul wrote that all scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching and equipping Christians to serve God. How is that NOT placing emphasis on scripture as our sole guide? If the letters and the Gospels to the churches were in circulation among the churches and being copied for distribution, during the first century, how is it that you say they did not have the NT?
 
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ViaCrucis

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I consider it pretty funny for anyone to think that Lutherans are going to, en masse, swim across the Tiber anytime soon. That's not happening.

For what it's worth, however, the Reformation wasn't about breaking away from Rome, that was a tragic result of the Reformation, but that wasn't what it was about. The Reformation, as the name might indicate, was about bringing reform to the Church from within the Church. The debates between Luther and the Reformers and their opponents in Rome were inter-Catholic debates and arguments. While many Roman Catholics like to paint the picture of a rebellious German monk taking his Bible and going his own way, and many Protestants like to think the same; that simply wasn't the case.

The schism between Rome and Wittenberg did not happen over night, and it shouldn't be celebrated. It's not a good thing that Lutherans and Catholics aren't in communion today--that's a bad thing. But it's also not going to change any time soon, both sides are pretty stubborn (and that's not a bad thing either in this case) because conviction and confession matters. While I would absolutely love it if some day we could come and receive the Supper of the Lord at the same altar, I would rather that wait until that can happen the right way rather than the easy way.

So no, the world population of Lutherans aren't going to be jumping ship to return to Rome in the near future. That's a completely silly notion that really doesn't even deserve to be taken seriously.

But it should be the prayer of every Lutheran that some day communion is restored. But such communion should only happen without a compromise to true conviction and confession.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Most would be surprised if they looked at the writings of the first christians - those appointed by the apostles - they would discover a liturgical, sacramental church that believed in real presence, appointed bishops needed for the sacraments , even infant baptism. It believed in paradosis ( ie tradition) - "handing down of the faith by word of mouth and letter" . It was certainly NOT sola scriptura as evangelicals understand it., the NT did not exist then. So reading some of the letters is fascinating! It is also believed in the teaching authority of the church.

Lutherans, for the record, don't believe in "sola scriptura" as modern Evangelicals understand it either. For Lutherans sola scriptura is about Scripture as the norma normans of Christian teaching and practice; not a dogmatic "Bible-onlyist" position. The historic and received confession of the holy catholic and Christian Church is, on the other hand, norma normata; this includes the Lutheran Confessions as contained in the Book of Concord.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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grasping the after wind

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I don't intend to watch a two hour video in order to comment on the subject. First, Luther, as far as I know, has not changed his position. Second, unlike Catholicism, there is not one contemporary monolithic authority that can be considered the arbiter of Lutheran doctrine. There are numerous Lutheran denominations each with unique understandings of what it means to be Lutheran. The differences between just the several US versions of Lutheranism are quite striking. That may be because Luther is not considered to be any more infallible than the Pope. The Protestant schism, btw, was not Luther's idea He wanted to reform a corrupt church but since criticizing the corruption in the church got him excommunicated and a price put on his head his choices were somewhat limited. As Rome has basically admitted he had a point way back when, and since Rome has been reforming itself over the last several decades in order to purge many of the practices Luther criticized, perhaps it is the Catholic Church coming home to Luther more than the other way around?
 
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JoeP222w

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There are impending changes to Lutheran and some other Protestant denominations doctrine during 2017 that could lead to the end of Protestantism as we know it. This you tube speaks for two hours on the changes to Lutheran doctrine to bring Lutherans back to Catholicism:

God is the one who preserves His word and His people. Granted there are many who claim to be Protestant who do not have the vaguest notion of what the Reformation was about and are simply Protestants of Preference rather than conviction, so for those, there will be a great falling away.

Roman Catholicism is the entity that has abandoned the Christian faith.

Was Protestantism ever justified?

Yes. Recommend you do some serious study on what the Reformation was all about. Starting with Martin Luther's 95 Theses is a good place to begin.
 
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Mountainmike

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Define "sola scriptura".

It is not for me to say , of course, as a non adherent to it, and there are a few slightly differing definitions.

In general:
Catholics hold that "all that is in the bible is truth" (ie god breathed)
Evangelicals hold that "all that is truth is in the bible" (ie if it is not in the bible it is not true or not necessary)

Which is evident when evangelicals say "where in the bible does it say that" to which the obvious answer is "where in the bible does it say it has to be in the bible"? because it nowhere says it.

A The first obvious problem is that the meaning of scripture does not travel with scripture, so that when Luther let pandora out of the box, the "priesthood of all believers" felt empowered to take their own interpretation of scripture, as Luther ruefully remarked of the consequences "every milkmaid now has their own doctrine", and the inevitable response was to add meaning to scripture in the shape of all different "articles" or "confessions". In short adding manmade tradition!

B The second obvious problem is that there is more to the faith as handed down to the apostles than is in scripture. Just take...what is the role of a bishop?

An example of A and B , is that A the meaning of the eucharist is real presence we know from a myriad of early documents, and appointed clergy by bishops were needed for a valid sacrament, again evidenced in early documents.

Evangelicals seem to think that ANY meaning they can twist from the words of scripture can be the truth. The answer is , that is not the church handed down by apostles. The meanings are clear in early fathers, as is the authority of the church to interpret doctrine. So any meaning is not good enough.

And that is the problem when "Bible alone" becomes amnesic, losing history, authority and tradition.
 
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JoeP222w

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Evangelicals hold that "all that is truth is in the bible" (ie if it is not in the bible it is not true or not necessary)

Some may think that, but that is misrepresentation of the definition of Sola Scriptura.

Catholics hold that "all that is in the bible is truth" (ie god breathed)

I would add, that is approved by the Church as truth.

Which is evident when evangelicals say "where in the bible does it say that"

This is a fair and honest question when it comes to matter of faith. If someone claims something as a dogma, and it is not found in the Bible or it contradicts what is in the Bible, for example, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, or Purgatory and Indulgences, then for those who trust in God, such dogmas are not authoritative.

A The first obvious problem is that the meaning of scripture does not travel with scripture, so that when Luther let pandora out of the box, the "priesthood of all believers" felt empowered to take their own interpretation of scripture, as Luther ruefully remarked of the consequences "every milkmaid now has their own doctrine", and the inevitable response was to add meaning to scripture in the shape of all different "articles" or "confessions". In short adding manmade tradition!

Some may do this, but again, this is a misrepresentation of Sola Scriptura. How Sola Scriptura is abused does not change the truth behind Sola Scriptura.

B The second obvious problem is that there is more to the faith as handed down to the apostles than is in scripture. Just take...what is the role of a bishop?

If this is true, there is no way to prove this. Bishop was never defined in the Bible. Pastor was, but not Bishop. So there is no way to define a role of Bishop as authoritative unless one accepts Sola Ekklesia.

Evangelicals seem to think that ANY meaning they can twist from the words of scripture can be the truth.

That may be true for some. But again, how the truth is abused is not a disavowal of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

The answer is , that is not the church handed down by apostles. The meanings are clear in early fathers, as is the authority of the church to interpret doctrine. So any meaning is not good enough.

Sola Scriptura does not deny the authority of the Church, that would be again, a misrepresentation of Sola Scriptura. The Bible is the sole infallible rule of faith. The Church is not infallible. God's word is infallible.

And that is the problem when "Bible alone" becomes amnesic, losing history, authority and tradition.

Again, you misunderstand Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura does not throw away history, the Church or tradition. But history, the Church (and I am not talking about the Roman Catholic church, I am talking about the universal Body of Believers in Jesus Christ) and tradition are subservient to scripture, not equal to or above scripture.
 
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Mountainmike

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Then you misunderstand tradition. And infallibility.

1/ You RELY on church infallibility. Because only by the infallible action of a church council do you even have the bible! Which is the power to "bind and loose". If you dont trust the succession, you have no authority on which to believe the bible inspired.
Indeed you must trust the "church", if you believe in the infallibility of scripture because it is there in scripture "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" and because that power was used to decide what WAS inspired scripture and what was not!


And you misunderstand tradition if you put it below scripture.
For several important reasons.

First...Jesus gave us apostles. He did not give us a book. So the means of "sola dei verbum" was as Apostle Paul points out by "word of mouth and letter". It was never by the new testament as you know it, for early christians. Tradition , paradosis, handing down was the mechanism of passage of the infallible word. And he gave us an apostolic succession to pass on the faith.

Second...the meaning of scripture clearly does not pass with the written word. If it were self explanatory why do all disagree on the meaning of it? So tradition and authority MUST hand on the infallible meaning to go with the infallible world. They are inseparable.

Third....Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom , made him the rock on which the church was built, asked him to be chief pastor "tend my lambs" , gave him the power to "bind and loose in heaven" (which in jewish speak is rule on matters of the law and do so infallibly - ie with heavens blessing). It was ALREADY there from ancient times. See Jesus' reference to moses seat, which first confirms that scripture by itself was not enough and second that Moses Seat conferred the power of truth. Which is why Jesus told them to listen to the pharisees when speaking from it. The forerunner and biblical support of ex cathedra.

In short. Your definition of sola scriptura doesnt fit the above.
And historically caused ALL the problems!




Some may think that, but that is misrepresentation of the definition of Sola Scriptura.



I would add, that is approved by the Church as truth.



This is a fair and honest question when it comes to matter of faith. If someone claims something as a dogma, and it is not found in the Bible or it contradicts what is in the Bible, for example, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, or Purgatory and Indulgences, then for those who trust in God, such dogmas are not authoritative.



Some may do this, but again, this is a misrepresentation of Sola Scriptura. How Sola Scriptura is abused does not change the truth behind Sola Scriptura.



If this is true, there is no way to prove this. Bishop was never defined in the Bible. Pastor was, but not Bishop. So there is no way to define a role of Bishop as authoritative unless one accepts Sola Ekklesia.



That may be true for some. But again, how the truth is abused is not a disavowal of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.



Sola Scriptura does not deny the authority of the Church, that would be again, a misrepresentation of Sola Scriptura. The Bible is the sole infallible rule of faith. The Church is not infallible. God's word is infallible.



Again, you misunderstand Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura does not throw away history, the Church or tradition. But history, the Church (and I am not talking about the Roman Catholic church, I am talking about the universal Body of Believers in Jesus Christ) and tradition are subservient to scripture, not equal to or above scripture.
 
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JellyQuest

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So who do you think has the truth?

When almost all protestants and reformation groups disagree with each other , having many mutually exclusive variants of baptism, salvation, eucharist,other sacraments, clergy, morality, liturgy..you name it, they all disagree on it. Tens of thousands of versions of "truth" when truth itself is unique, so almost all reformationists preach one or more falsehoods - logically that must be true since they preach opposite things.

The problem IS sola scriptura introduced by Luther. A doctrine unsupportable either logically, historically, biblically or evidentially, so launching "customized" "choose your own doctrine" Christianity.
Jesus has and Is the truth and he said if you love me you will keep my words .
John states that those who continue in the practice of sin are not of god and do not know him . So those who say with their mouths they are disciples but do not obey the lord Jesus, have not the truth in them. i don't care what sunday club you attend. no one will be judged by what club they adhere to .but whether they obey JEsus .in extremes i know many people who speak in tongues that don't obey Jesus and i see many people who follow rome that do not obey Jesus .
 
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Goatee

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Then you misunderstand tradition. And infallibility.

1/ You RELY on church infallibility. Because only by the infallible action of a church council do you even have the bible! Which is the power to "bind and loose". If you dont trust the succession, you have no authority on which to believe the bible inspired.
Indeed you must trust the "church", if you believe in the infallibility of scripture because it is there in scripture "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" and because that power was used to decide what WAS inspired scripture and what was not!


And you misunderstand tradition if you put it below scripture.
For several important reasons.

First...Jesus gave us apostles. He did not give us a book. So the means of "sola dei verbum" was as Apostle Paul points out by "word of mouth and letter". It was never by the new testament as you know it, for early christians. Tradition , paradosis, handing down was the mechanism of passage of the infallible word. And he gave us an apostolic succession to pass on the faith.

Second...the meaning of scripture clearly does not pass with the written word. If it were self explanatory why do all disagree on the meaning of it? So tradition and authority MUST hand on the infallible meaning to go with the infallible world. They are inseparable.

Third....Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom , made him the rock on which the church was built, asked him to be chief pastor "tend my lambs" , gave him the power to "bind and loose in heaven" (which in jewish speak is rule on matters of the law and do so infallibly - ie with heavens blessing). It was ALREADY there from ancient times. See Jesus' reference to moses seat, which first confirms that scripture by itself was not enough and second that Moses Seat conferred the power of truth. Which is why Jesus told them to listen to the pharisees when speaking from it. The forerunner and biblical support of ex cathedra.

In short. Your definition of sola scriptura doesnt fit the above.
And historically caused ALL the problems!

Well said. Agree 100%
 
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