Was the Flood global?

[cvanwey]

Well I could probably find YEC counter arguments for every argument you give like how I provided those links earlier. Though I don't believe there was a flood.

If neither of us believe there was a flood, then this topic is pointless for you and I to address accordingly

 

[klutedavid]

For Christians - was the Flood global? If not, why do you think that? Due to geology and archaeology? Or do you think the Bible is saying that it would have been local?

Also it said it rained for 40 days and flooded the earth for 150 days which might be unusual for a local flood. Also it says Noah lived to be 950.... but I guess that is a little off topic.

Noah's flood would have been a local flood.

 

[JohnClay]

If neither of us believe there was a flood, then this topic is pointless for you and I to address accordingly

BTW besides there being YEC counter arguments for just about every flood criticism an interesting thing is that the all or nothing thinking of YECs can cause them to go to atheism like for myself.
See
The Bible Test - Life's Player

Evolution and Creation Science, The Bible Taught It First

From AIG:
"Ultimately, the controversy about the age of the earth is a controversy about the authority of Scripture. If millions of years really happened, then the Bible is false and cannot speak with authority on any issue, even the Gospel."

 

[cvanwey]

BTW besides there being YEC counter arguments for just about every flood criticism an interesting thing is that the all or nothing thinking of YECs can cause them to go to atheism like for myself.
See
The Bible Test - Life's Player

Evolution and Creation Science, The Bible Taught It First

From AIG:
"Ultimately, the controversy about the age of the earth is a controversy about the authority of Scripture. If millions of years really happened, then the Bible is false and cannot speak with authority on any issue, even the Gospel."

Okay? Does this mean you used to be a YEC, but now that you see there exists too much conflict, upon your viewpoint, you are now an atheist?

 

[klutedavid]

BTW besides there being YEC counter arguments for just about every flood criticism an interesting thing is that the all or nothing thinking of YECs can cause them to go to atheism like for myself.
See
The Bible Test - Life's Player

Evolution and Creation Science, The Bible Taught It First

From AIG:
"Ultimately, the controversy about the age of the earth is a controversy about the authority of Scripture. If millions of years really happened, then the Bible is false and cannot speak with authority on any issue, even the Gospel."

Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket.

For example, was the tree that granted the knowledge of good and evil, a real tree. Take one bite of the fruit and bingo! You now have the awareness of good and evil. I do not accept that literal interpretation of the early chapters of Genesis

"Ultimately, the controversy about the age of the earth is a controversy about the authority of Scripture. If millions of years really happened, then the Bible is false and cannot speak with authority on any issue, even the Gospel."

I do not accept that the earth is six thousand years old. The scientific evidence that the earth is ancient is derived from a number of different sources. This is not subject to debate.

Does that mean that the events listed in Genesis never occurred?

I believe every event recorded in Genesis actually took place, but the historical timing is compressed.

It's the same in the New Testament accounts of the resurrection. Each gospel describes the resurrection event differently and they cannot be reconciled. Does that then mean that the resurrection did not occur? Of course not, the resurrection took place and was witnessed by over five hundred people.

We need to be far more gentle in the way we approach the scripture. A light touch is required.

 

[cvanwey]

I believe every event recorded in Genesis actually took place, but the historical timing is compressed.

If someone were to demonstrate, even to your own personal satisfaction, that at least one event never occurred, would you change your stance on Christianity, or, would it still not matter?

the resurrection took place and was witnessed by over five hundred people.

500 accounted for and individually questioned people corroborated seeing Jesus postmortem? Really? Do tell? How do you know this?

 

[klutedavid]

If someone were to demonstrate, even to your own personal satisfaction, that at least one event never occurred, would you change your stance on Christianity, or, would it still not matter?

I do not subscribe to the hard line fundamentalist claim, that the scripture is written by God. Therefore, if there are mistakes in the scripture then that would be expected.

So it is irrelevant whether one or more events actually happened. As long as the primary revelation of the messiah remains in tact.

So whether the flood was a local flood or a global flood is a pointless exercise.

500 accounted for and individually questioned people corroborated seeing Jesus postmortem? Really? Do tell? How do you know this?

That's what Paul wrote to the Corinthians. Do you believe that Paul was a liar?

We know that Christianity was based on the death and resurrection of the messiah. The messiah had to be seen as risen by the apostles, otherwise Christianity would not exist. It is that simple.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

BTW besides there being YEC counter arguments for just about every flood criticism an interesting thing is that the all or nothing thinking of YECs can cause them to go to atheism like for myself.
See
The Bible Test - Life's Player

Evolution and Creation Science, The Bible Taught It First

From AIG:
"Ultimately, the controversy about the age of the earth is a controversy about the authority of Scripture. If millions of years really happened, then the Bible is false and cannot speak with authority on any issue, even the Gospel."

The Bible only cover the era of written history. Even with that Bible Scholars admit gaps in the genealogies. Google gaps genealogy article bible green to learn about those gaps.

Other cultures places written history around 20,000 years or so.

I presented the books that researches Noah's Flood as local.

Many things in the YEC models don't add up like the pressure cooker.

Have a good night, my wife is home

 

[JohnClay]

Okay? Does this mean you used to be a YEC, but now that you see there exists too much conflict, upon your viewpoint, you are now an atheist?

I said I went from YEC to atheism... that was in 1997. Then I started to believe in an intelligent force (while believing most of the Bible isn't historical)
Hearing songs with seemingly supernatural significance
The reason I became an atheist was because I believed that if God was true then the Bible would be 100% true. So if some isn't true, then the Christian God isn't true (see the earlier AIG quote).

 

[JohnClay]

Noah's flood would have been a local flood.

Is there anything in the Bible that supports that? Or just geology and archaeology that makes you think that? BTW do you know when it would have happened?

 

[JohnClay]

"500 accounted for and individually questioned people corroborated seeing Jesus postmortem? Really? Do tell? How do you know this?"

That's what Paul wrote to the Corinthians. Do you believe that Paul was a liar?

Paul might not have been an eye-witness and heard a story about it...

1 Corinthians 15:6
"After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep."

He should have said when and where it supposedly happened so that it could be verified.... he just gives fairly useless information like "at the same time" and "most of whom are still living" and "though some have fallen asleep"...

I think the appearance could have been mistaken identity like this - people might say that he doesn't look like Jesus but how do you know the 500 had a Jesus that had the correct appearance?
V: Jesus in Nairobi, Kenya, 1988

 

[JohnClay]

The Bible only cover the era of written history. Even with that Bible Scholars admit gaps in the genealogies. Google gaps genealogy article bible green to learn about those gaps.

I don't see how the dates could be pushed back due to gaps.... unless you contradict the Bible verses...

Other cultures places written history around 20,000 years or so.

History of writing - Wikipedia
This says that writing was probably invented in 3400 BC if that's what you mean by "written history".

I presented the books that researches Noah's Flood as local.

I can't read any of those books. I'm sure the arguments they present can also be found online.

Many things in the YEC models don't add up like the pressure cooker.

Though they might believe the flaws in evolutionary theory, etc, are worse.

 

[JohnClay]

What I suspect is that the numbers have some significance that isn't obvious to the casual observer. For example, the lifespans of the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob seem at first glance to be numbers of no significance, but actually they are sums of squares and so forth.....

BTW there are at least 3 versions of the Genesis genealogies...
Genealogies of Genesis - Wikipedia
Some added on 100 years multiple times.... see the following video for the reasons - (it is quite entertaining)

 

[JohnClay]

If I were to take the time and adequately debunk the claimed 'Biblical flood', even to your complete personal satisfaction, would it even matter?

edit: oops this is the second time I replied...

I think it never happened but my point is that they have counter-arguments for just about everything you'd say... and I think an intelligent force helped have those verses in the Bible.... e.g. "after their kind", making the ark big enough for a pair of each "kind" to fit on, about vertical tree trunks in the layers, fish fossilised with food in their mouth, sea fossils on mountain tops, etc, etc. I don't think it is just an accident that it seems to fit so well....

 

[klutedavid]

Is there anything in the Bible that supports that? Or just geology and archaeology that makes you think that? BTW do you know when it would have happened?

The existence of the age of the dinosaurs puts an end to the idea. That the earth is a young earth.

Continental drift and the shape of the continents tells us in no uncertain terms. That the earth has a very ancient history, there was once, in fact, just a single continent. You can reconstruct that single continent like a jigsaw.

Ice core samples and coral core samples push the earth way beyond the reach. Of any young earth paradigm.

Does any of this matter in accepting the scripture by faith. Not at all, you can believe whatever you wish to believe.

No one has any idea about what happened in deep time. As soon as we proceed beyond recorded history the problems mount.

 

[klutedavid]

Paul might not have been an eye-witness and heard a story about it...

1 Corinthians 15:6
"After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep."

He should have said when and where it supposedly happened so that it could be verified.... he just gives fairly useless information like "at the same time" and "most of whom are still living" and "though some have fallen asleep"...

I think the appearance could have been mistaken identity like this - people might say that he doesn't look like Jesus but how do you know the 500 had a Jesus that had the correct appearance?
V: Jesus in Nairobi, Kenya, 1988

That's why I love the gospel. It can only accepted by faith ultimately.

Even the scripture refers to the gospel as a foolish thing.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is to them that are perishing foolishness; but unto us which are being saved it is the power of God.

So it should be utterly stupid to the unbelievers. AMEN.

 

[cvanwey]

So it is irrelevant whether one or more events actually happened. As long as the primary revelation of the messiah remains in tact.

This statement seems to be at odds with what you stated prior:

Post #25 "I believe every event recorded in Genesis actually took place, but the historical timing is compressed."

Now you are stating "it is irrelevant whether one or more events actually happened."?.?.?

This why I specifically asked you prior:

If someone were to demonstrate, even to your own personal satisfaction, that at least one event never occurred, would you change your stance on Christianity, or, would it still not matter?

It seems like the only event, which actually matters, is the claimed resurrection. So let's discuss

That's what Paul wrote to the Corinthians. Do you believe that Paul was a liar?

Your question does not address my inquiry. Does Paul list the 500 individuals whom witnessed Jesus postmortem? Did each individual give their own testimony of the claimed event? Were all these testimonials corroborated in any way?

No. Paul simply states "After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep."

He may not be a liar, but maybe he is merely regurgitating what he heard from others, via oral tradition.

We know that Christianity was based on the death and resurrection of the messiah. The messiah had to be seen as risen by the apostles, otherwise Christianity would not exist. It is that simple.

Sure, I understand what is at stake for you. However, we do not appear to have 500 corroborated individual eyewitnesses, do we? If so, I'll do you a favor and only ask that you identify 250 of them by name? And provide their individual documented testimonials?

 

[JohnClay]

That's why I love the gospel. It can only accepted by faith ultimately.

I think the same could be true of belief in God when it comes to hard-core skeptics...

Even the scripture refers to the gospel as a foolish thing.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is to them that are perishing foolishness; but unto us which are being saved it is the power of God.

So it should be utterly stupid to the unbelievers. AMEN.

There's also 1 Corinthians 3:18-19
"Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight"

This "foolishness" could be their theories that there was no designer....

 

[JohnClay]

The existence of the age of the dinosaurs puts an end to the idea. That the earth is a young earth.

You Don’t “Fit” Dinosaurs with the Bible!

Continental drift and the shape of the continents tells us in no uncertain terms. That the earth has a very ancient history, there was once, in fact, just a single continent. You can reconstruct that single continent like a jigsaw.

A New Take on "Continental Drift"

Ice core samples and coral core samples push the earth way beyond the reach. Of any young earth paradigm.

Wild Ice-Core Interpretations by Uniformitarian Scientists

There are multiple YEC articles for all of these...

Since it is easy to find these counter-arguments those topics wouldn't be problematic for YECs....

 

[JohnClay]

....Sure, I understand what is at stake for you. However, we do not appear to have 500 corroborated individual eyewitnesses, do we? If so, I'll do you a favor and only ask that you identify 250 of them by name? And provide their individual documented testimonials?

See post #31...

My problem with the passage is that he never says where or when it happened. That's the most important thing...

BTW here is a story about Jesus appearing to 6000 people, including photos!

V: Jesus in Nairobi, Kenya, 1988

So the story of people believing they saw Jesus could be true... it just could be mistaken identity... and without photos we can't know what the apparent appearance in the NT looked like....

BTW the gospels record a few instances of mistaken identity... and King Herod thought Jesus was a resurrected version of John, etc.

BTW all of Jesus's ancestors are named (sometimes in a contradictory way) - but I don't think that makes it seem much more convincing...

Also the Bible names some of the alledged witnesses of the risen Christ but I'm sure you would have other problems with that....

My biggest problem with the appearances was that Jesus only stays around a couple of hours at a time... that fits the mistaken identity theory than there being a continuously resurrected person....