Was the Flood global?

[JohnClay]

For Christians - was the Flood global? If not, why do you think that? Due to geology and archaeology? Or do you think the Bible is saying that it would have been local?

Also it said it rained for 40 days and flooded the earth for 150 days which might be unusual for a local flood. Also it says Noah lived to be 950.... but I guess that is a little off topic.

Genesis 6:7

I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground

6:13

I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth

7:5

I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made

7:19-21

They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits. Every living thing that moved on land perished

7:23

Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth.

 

[eleos1954]

For Christians - was the Flood global? If not, why do you think that? Due to geology and archaeology? Or do you think the Bible is saying that it would have been local?

Also it said it rained for 40 days and flooded the earth for 150 days which might be unusual for a local flood. Also it says Noah lived to be 950.... but I guess that is a little off topic.

Due to geology and archaeology the catastrophic flood was global. The layers are flat consistently on all the continents .... no signs of erosion between the layers ....fossils found are found buried fully formed (including dinosaurs of which were massive in size) supporting a "quick burial". fossilized seashells found on mountain tops.

People in early times did in fact live longer the bloodline was much more pure back in those days.

 

[cloudyday2]

What is the significance of 150 days of flooding? 40 is a Biblical number but what about 150?

If I create a legend why would I use 150 days as opposed to some other number of days that is more symbolic such as 365?

 

[cloudyday2]

Another random idea: what if the animals on the Ark were only domesticated animals? Imagine a local flood of some early agricultural region. The domesticated animals like chickens might face extinction if they are not rescued in the Ark, but the wild animals presumably lived in others locales and would not need to be rescued. This would give a lot more room on the Ark.

 

[JohnClay]

What is the significance of 150 days of flooding? 40 is a Biblical number but what about 150?

If I create a legend why would I use 150 days as opposed to some other number of days that is more symbolic such as 365?

My theory is that God was in charge of the 40 days of flooding in the story... the 150 days was how long it took for the water without intervention from God.

As far as numbers go, check out Numbers 1 and 2 - it seems the numbers are to the nearest 50 or 100.... I don't see a special significance to those numbers. Also see the genealogies in Genesis 5... most of the numbers don't seem to have significance though there is a 777 in there.

The genealogies make sure that none of Noah's ancestors survived the Flood:

 

[JohnClay]

Due to geology and archaeology the catastrophic flood was global. The layers are flat consistently on all the continents .... no signs of erosion between the layers ....fossils found are found buried fully formed (including dinosaurs of which were massive in size) supporting a "quick burial". fossilized seashells found on mountain tops.

People in early times did in fact live longer the bloodline was much more pure back in those days.

I also used to believe in a global Flood... a major reason I stopped believing in YEC was the Green River Formation.... Creation Science, Creationist Misuse of the Green River Formation, Glenn Morton

 

[cvanwey]

Due to geology and archaeology the catastrophic flood was global. The layers are flat consistently on all the continents .... no signs of erosion between the layers ....fossils found are found buried fully formed (including dinosaurs of which were massive in size) supporting a "quick burial". fossilized seashells found on mountain tops.

People in early times did in fact live longer the bloodline was much more pure back in those days.

Can you please cite your specific sources for these assertions? Especially, the following listed assertions below:

- Due to geology and archaeology
- catastrophic flood was global
- fossilized seashells found on mountain tops
- People in early times did in fact live longer

 

[JohnClay]

Can you please cite your specific sources for these assertions? Especially, the following listed assertions below:

Here you go... YEC has counter-arguments for most common objections....

- Due to geology and archaeology

Does Archaeology Support the Bible?
Geology and the Flood

- catastrophic flood was global

Global Flood

- fossilized seashells found on mountain tops

In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - 129. Seashells on Mountaintops

- People in early times did in fact live longer

Decreased lifespans: Have we been looking in the right place? - creation.com

 

[Daniel Marsh]

If the flood was global for that long, where did the bird find part of a tree?

The pressure of such a flood would have destroyed plant life including trees.

Bernard Ramm in his book Science and the Bible makes the case for a local flood.

Noah's Flood: The New Scientific Discoveries About The Event That Changed History
by William Ryan and Walter Pitman | Jan 25, 2000

Noah's Flood, Joshua's Long Day, & Lucifer's Fall: What Really Happened?
by Ralph Woodrow | Mar 1, 1984

Christian View of Science and Scripture
by Bernard Ramm

The Bible, Rocks and Time: Geological Evidence for the Age of the Earth
by Davis A. Young and Ralph F. Stearley

The biblical Flood: A case study of the Church's response to extrabiblical evidence Paperback – January 1, 1995
by Davis A Young

The Lost World of the Flood: Mythology, Theology, and the Deluge Debate Paperback – April 3, 2018
by Tremper Longman III (Author), John H. Walton (Author),

 

[JohnClay]

If the flood was global for that long, where did the bird find part of a tree?.....

Is there anything in the Bible that suggests the Flood was local? BTW YECs have no problem with that bird issue.
NOAH’S FLOOD? Where did the olive in dove’s mouth come from if the whole world was flooded?

Matthew 24:38-39
"For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man"

BTW I can't read those books... could you only refer to web pages?

 

[cloudyday2]

My theory is that God was in charge of the 40 days of flooding in the story... the 150 days was how long it took for the water without intervention from God.

I watched an old documentary about Noah's Flood, and apparently Noah was on the Ark for 365 days which is a meaningful number much like the 40 days of rain. So 40 and 365 are numbers I would expect a storyteller to use in a myth. The significance of 150 days is not so obvious to me.

Here is a link to a table with the days to various events in the Flood story. There are lots of puzzling numbers specified whose significance is not obvious. Why not say "several months" or "half a year" rather than 150? Why specify the starting of the rain as the "17th day in the second month"?
Chronology of the Flood - UnderstandChristianity.com

 

[Andrewn]

The significance of 150 days is not so obvious to me.

 

[cloudyday2]

Here are some more ideas on the flood chronology:
- rain starts on 17th day of 2nd month
- land is totally dry on 27th day of 2nd month of the following year

A lunar month is 29.5 days. Assuming a lunar calendar, 12 months is 354 days. The solar year of 365 would be approximately 10 days more than a lunar year (17th day through 27th day).

 

[JohnClay]

I watched an old documentary about Noah's Flood, and apparently Noah was on the Ark for 365 days which is a meaningful number much like the 40 days of rain. So 40 and 365 are numbers I would expect a storyteller to use in a myth. The significance of 150 days is not so obvious to me......

You seem to be arguing that it seems like the numbers weren't just made up - an alternative is that the numbers were real.
Or it was trying to look realistic.

 

[cloudyday2]

You seem to be arguing that it seems like the numbers weren't just made up - an alternative is that the numbers were real.
Or it was trying to look realistic.

What I suspect is that the numbers have some significance that isn't obvious to the casual observer. For example, the lifespans of the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob seem at first glance to be numbers of no significance, but actually they are sums of squares and so forth. Apparently the person who composed that part of Genesis wanted to demonstrate his mathematical cleverness by choosing those numbers.

So I think something similar happened with the chronology of the Noah Flood. The days of various occurrences in the Flood are specified precisely but in most cases there is no obvious significance to those days (to a casual layman like me). But probably there is significance that requires some deeper understanding of the calendar and numerological traditions of the culture where those days were attached to the Flood story. In fact, this might give us some clues as to who wrote the version of the Flood story that found its way into Genesis. For example, if the days do not have significance in Hebrew culture but they do have significance in Akkadian culture or Assyrian culture or Persian culture then we might infer that the Hebrews borrowed the story from that culture. We know of course that a version of the Flood Story was included in the Epic of Gilgamesh from Assyrian tablets, but I do not believe that version included the specificity of days in the chronology. Did a Hebrew author add those details or did an author from some other culture?

 

[cloudyday2]

You seem to be arguing that it seems like the numbers weren't just made up - an alternative is that the numbers were real.
Or it was trying to look realistic.

Another alternative is that God arranged for the days of events in the Flood chronology to have significance so that people would have additional evidence that the Flood was an act of God rather than random bad weather. I personally think the Flood is myth, but I suppose God would probably use numbers of significance in an actual act of God (God is probably pretty clever with math since he created it LOL).

 

[cvanwey]

Here you go... YEC has counter-arguments for most common objections....


Does Archaeology Support the Bible?
Geology and the Flood


Global Flood


In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - 129. Seashells on Mountaintops


Decreased lifespans: Have we been looking in the right place? - creation.com

I was waiting for a response from @eleos1954 But I have to ask, do [you] think the flood actually happened? Yes or no?

If yes, are you under the notion it was global or local? And furthermore, if yes, do you think it happened a few thousand years ago, or longer?

 

[JohnClay]

I was waiting for a response from @eleos1954 But I have to ask, do [you] think the flood actually happened? Yes or no?

If yes, are you under the notion it was global or local? And furthermore, if yes, do you think it happened a few thousand years ago, or longer?

I believe in a kind of God (an intelligent force within a video game) due to personal experiences (that skeptics would say involves coincidences). I believe there are a lot of good reasons to believe in a global flood (like all the links I provided) though I think that most of the Bible isn't historical (including the flood).
Here is what I think about the Bible in more detail:
The Bible Test - Life's Player

 

[cvanwey]

I believe in a kind of God (an intelligent force within a video game) due to personal experiences (that skeptics would say involves coincidences). I believe there are a lot of good reasons to believe in a global flood (like all the links I provided) though I think that most of the Bible isn't historical (including the flood).

If I were to take the time and adequately debunk the claimed 'Biblical flood', even to your complete personal satisfaction, would it even matter?

 

[JohnClay]

If I were to take the time and adequately debunk the claimed 'Biblical flood', even to your complete personal satisfaction, would it even matter?

Well I could probably find YEC counter arguments for every argument you give like how I provided those links earlier. Though I don't believe there was a flood.