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Was sin created by God ?
- Thread starter beloved57
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elopez
Well-Known Member
Yes, but indispensable to that is the thought that God cannot act in a contrary manner. Thus, God cannot create a square circle, a four sided triangle, or anything like that. That doesn't improve your claim that God 'created' sin, since that would require for God to sin Himself since 'sin' is not a thing that can be created as it is not of substance, but rather sin is the result of an immoral action, specifically against God's will.
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
If God said the tree is black and you thought the tree was green, who put the first thought in your head. And if he says the circle is square will you dispute him without knowledge of what He is truly able to do. The very thoughts you conceive are from the mind of God. SO how do you say what God cannot do when you don't have a clue what He can do. Does the bible not sat that He can show us things we can't even imagine? God is in control and thus is able to do what ever he wills to do. That's the bottom line. But understand this, whatever he does is not contrary to his will for it IS HIS WILL.
hismessenger
hismessenger
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elopez
Well-Known Member
Well a square circle is intrinsically impossible to create. You should know that. You should also know that God does not act in a contradicting manner, but you still insist God 'created' sin which means He had to sin Himself, which is very hypocritical. So now you're saying it is God's will to sin? Whatever you think makes sense, but I'll tell you now I really doubt that is what the Bible says of God's nature.
If I conceive thoughts that are contrary to God's will, I do not think they come from God, sorry.
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
Then if God ended this creation where would sin and thoughts be? You fail to understand that the whole of creation rests in God. EVERY last aspect of our finite minds cannot even conceive all the infinite things which are taking place even as I write this. You can't put God in the small box of our minds for we could have no mind if not for God.
hismessenger
hismessenger
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Who created the being or beings that make such a deliberate act against the known will of God ?
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cap says:
No its not. And yes God created evil intending it to be so. Did God know that when He created Adam that Adam would sin and bring death into the world ?
Did He not know that way before He created Adam ?
No its not. And yes God created evil intending it to be so. Did God know that when He created Adam that Adam would sin and bring death into the world ?
Did He not know that way before He created Adam ?
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elopez
Well-Known Member
Look, I think it comes down to one simple point. What is sin? How would you define it? To me it is going against God's will, thoughts and action. Do you think sin is composed of substance, something that can be created like the universe or earth? I do not think sin is made of substance, so it cannot be created. Sin is committed. So if anything what you mean to say is that God sinned, and sinned originally as to be the creator of sin.
If God prohibits us from sinning and punishes us for it yet has sinned Himself, then it is contradicting of God to prohibit sin in the first place. Are you comfortable with that notion of God? Because that is what is means to say that God 'created' sin. Do you follow?
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
Your still trying to place God within the finite confines of your mind. Your head would explode if you had to endure all that God has purposed. Ever seen the movie Bruce Almighty?, if not you should for it gives us only a small glimpse of what God deals with on an eternal basis, not daily but eternally until He says enough. Think that you could handle hearing the prayers o every one who prays and answer each and everyone of them? He is so much more awesome than we could even imagine.
hismessenger
hismessenger
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
Why does He still find fault? Who said he is finding fault? Can it not be that all is going according to his plan.
hismessenger
hismessenger
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elopez
Well-Known Member
And you're still avoiding my questions which lead to the discrepancy of your claim that God "created" evil. This has nothing to do with my ability or lack thereof to answer prayers as God or to even begin to comprehend what it's like. I've seen the movie and it does provide a good glimpse on the issue. Though citing this movie does nothing to answer my questions.
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
You should read Romans 9; verses 17-22 and try to understand what it is really saying. Pharaoh was created for his purpose which was to be an antagonist to Israel. He was one of the vessels to dishonor if you understand what God has done. He did evil before God but it is directly stated that God created him for the purpose of destroying Him to show forth God's power to man. Now understand what it is truly saying. The evil that Pharaoh did was designed in him from the beginning. IF you believe and accept the word as true, you must accept the fact that God created the evil in Pharaoh for God's purpose. Everything that God has created is good for the purpose he created it for. You do the math, it is right in front of you.
hismessenger
hismessenger
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elopez
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And does it say anywhere in those verses that God created the evil in Pharaoh from the beginning, or is that something you merely assume from the text? Still avoiding the questions I asked in relevance to your claim I see, so if you're going to keep dodging them I don't think there is much else to say. I've already gave a verse that contradicts any notion of God creating evil, so until that contradiction is explained away no verse can be used as evidence to say God created evil is valid.
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
You asked me to define sin. Here is an indisputable truth for you to surmise. Sin is to go against the will of God. Bottom line. Pharaoh went against the will of God. Did he not? the thing which you don't want to accept is that God caused Pharaoh to go against what he wanted to show the people His power. IN essence, God made him go against his will. What is sin? To go against the will of God. Do you accept scripture or not?
hismessenger
Just so we are clear, God was going to free Israel no matter what but Israel's freedom came at the expense of Pharaoh. Even when He relented and did as God had asked, God still turned his heart to go after the people. SIN in it's clearest form. To go against the will of God, even when what occurred was still in the divine will of God. Everything has it's own purpose in this creation as per God. Even the sin which we are so quick to decry.
hismessenger
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elopez
Well-Known Member
I've been asking you to define sin. Now that you have maybe we can advance this discussion. So, we both agree that sinning means to go against the will of God since that is how I've been defining sin this whole time. And I thought you were talking about the origin of sin, not God making people do things in order to reveal His sovereign presence? Remember, you are arguing that God has 'created' sin, and for God to have 'created' sin it means God was the originator of sin, is it not? Why then are you bringing up something that is not related to the origin of sin but something that has taken place after the fact? To show that God 'created' sin you would have to go back to Genesis and find there where it indicates such, since I believe it would only make sense for sin to have been 'created' in the beginning.
Are you not forgetting that before God hardened Pharaohs heart that Pharaoh indeed hardened his own heart? Even then, as I was saying quoting this verse does nothing to further show that God is the originator of sin. I submit you forget using verses unless it is from Genesis to say God 'created' sin, what do you say? Unless of course it can be shown that a verse outside Genesis says God created evil in the beginning or something to that affect.
Now if sin is going against God's will and God has 'created' sin, then that means that God has went against His own will, unless you can clarify what 'create' means in some other sense. I can only wonder, how are you not noticing the incongruity here?
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
Elopez, see that word ALL in that passage. See the word invisible and principalities or powers. Now if you can tell me one item that the word ALL doesn't encompass, you might have a valid debate. But since it says all and I will note that Satan is one of those principalities and powers it speaks of. How do you explain this if God didn't do it?
Note that it says by him and FOR him. Everything that exists in this creation has purpose or else it wouldn't be here. Sin has purpose for God. It is a created thing just like everything else that is within for it can't exist outside of this creation. OR do you believe otherwise. If God ends the creation, sin is ended right along with it for sin is apart of this creation. And who did it? You know who! Sin did not enter in from outside but came from within.
hismessenger
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