Was sin created by God ?

[Hismessenger]

He convinced them they
could disobey God, with no penalties

He made them believe they had choice!

hismessenger

 

[billybtennessee]

He made them believe they had choice!

hismessenger

Brother, obviously, I disagree with the theology presented here. The point is, they did. Nothing any believe will change that.

The position obviously presented is that God purposed satan to rebel and to convince them of that, and all the other evil he and his have done. Adam and Eve just thought they did, however, chose to disobey. Following that logic, one sins because they are purposed to, not because they make the choice to in and of themselves. Quite convenient. Following this logic, one is only exhorted to repent, confess, believe, surrender, but they do or do not only as purposed, the exhortation is just for ????. A theology such as this is flawed, not because I "think" so, but because the scripture reveals it. Scripture very clearly and plainly tells what God desires for His creation, and it is not found in flawed theology, but in the scripture itself.

The creature was made subject to vanity in hope. Rom. 8:20. Flawed theology subjects these majority of creatures to no hope at all, however. But God wants people to seek Him. Acts 17:27. God commands all men everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30. God wants those who choose to fear Him. Prov. 1:23-30 (v.29) God will also deal with those who 'chose their own ways', Isaiah 66:3,4. Prov. 1:31. Just a sample, that exposes a flawed theology.

 

[Hismessenger]

The creature was made subject to vanity in hope.

Why is it that the entire verse is never quoted in defense of one's position?

not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

You gave a good discourse on the first part so now explain why they were subjected unwillingly by reason of him who made the creature subject to vanity.

It says to me that God has purpose in all that he has purposed in His creation. If that is flawed theology then I yield to the superior intellect of God and try not to impose my finite understanding on what he is doing without full knowledge of what he has purposed for each and every person in the creation.

hismessenger

 

[billybtennessee]

Why is it that the entire verse is never quoted in defense of one's position?



You gave a good discourse on the first part so now explain why they were subjected unwillingly by reason of him who made the creature subject to vanity.

It says to me that God has purpose in all that he has purposed in His creation. If that is flawed theology then I yield to the superior intellect of God and try not to impose my finite understanding on what he is doing without full knowledge of what he has purposed for each and every person in the creation.

hismessenger

Very well. Here is the entire sentence. 20. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope.

It was not man who subjected themselves to vanity, it was indeed God. The reason is the same one already given. Yes Brother, God did have purpose. He desires we seek Him. Freedom is needed, however, for that. The flaw comes in when we explain theology in a way that Gods word does not. Theology has a few different meanings, like everything else today.

I agree 100% with the last paragraph you wrote here, Brother. It will be done regardless, anyhow, though, His purpose. This is true concerning all of us, whatever church we align with, regardless of theology, finite understanding, or supposed full knowledge. Definitely none of these should attempt to usurp Gods word. When we start thinking one part of His body, is the entire body, say, a hand, or a foot, this is what cripples, and we are all guilty. All here, means all, been there already.

 

[Hismessenger]

but by reason of Him

So let me ask. Do you know what his reason is for subjecting all to vanity. What does vanity cause and why would he want us to experience it?

Things to ponder on.

hismessenger

 

[billybtennessee]

So let me ask. Do you know what his reason is for subjecting all to vanity. What does vanity cause and why would he want us to experience it?

Things to ponder on.

hismessenger

Touched on that, last paragraph, post #102. Solomon, in Ecclesiastes touched on vanity, it is a good read, basically he sums it up in Ecc. 12:13, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter; Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." He then states the reason, God will bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing. Concerning fearing God, Malachi wrote in Mal. 3:16, "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon His name."

There are other scripture of course, the entire Bible, as already stated, reveals God, and our need for Him, and calls us to believe and walk in God, through the Lord Jesus Christ. Through Jesus Christ God reveals His love to the world, and wants whosoever to believe in Him. He wants us to seek Him, and find Him, as already stated.

So let me ask. What is Gods desire for all men? Who does God invite to come? Who is the gospel to be preached to? But, "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt. 7:14. How do you explain that verse?

 

[Arthur57]

If God created sin, then Jesus didn't need to come and die for us. There is no Jesus Christ.

What He created was FREE WILL, which might give way to rebellion, ideas that one day stand against Him, and as James 1:14,15 said, when these ideas brought forth and conceived, give birth to sin.

God knew what sin is, but he could not feel it, as in Him there is no sin.

The same as I know that sugar is sweet, but I will never knew the taste of it if I didn't taste it.

Therefore, God must come and incarnate in the same flesh as we are in order he might taste, feel and knew what sin really is. And thus might give a way out to be released from the dominion of sin that has dominated men ever since the fall of Adam.

 

[Arthur57]

So, Jesus was born in the same sinful flesh as we are with the same self centered heart that we have, in order he might taste sin and knew the evil tendencies of sin and it lust.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; ......2 corinthians 5:21
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Romans 8:3)
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Hebrews 2:14
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, Hebrews 2:17
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Hebrews 2:18.
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.Hebrews 4:15.

 

[Hismessenger]

If God created sin, then Jesus didn't need to come and die for us. There is no Jesus Christ.

But understand what you have said. If there was no sin then Jesus didn't need to come. It works both ways. But the word of God is true and if Christ was ordained to be the savior of the world from the foundations of the world, then for God's word to be true, there had to be sin. It is about his glory, not what we can comprehend with our finite minds that doesn't agree with our religious jargon.

Sin could not have sprung up in God's creation with Him being unawares of it's existence before hand. I don't understand how it is so hard to grasp the fact that everything in the creation was created by God for His purpose. If it weren't so then it could not and can not exist within the sphere of this creation. The creation is alive and thrives in God and nothing can enter in without His divine providence and will.

The creation is not like an omelet that can have things added to it without the master chef's input. If the master doesn't add the ingredients it doesn't get added.

hismessenger

 

[Arthur57]

But understand what you have said. If there was no sin then Jesus didn't need to come. It works both ways. But the word of God is true and if Christ was ordained to be the savior of the world from the foundations of the world, then for God's word to be true, there had to be sin. It is about his glory, not what we can comprehend with our finite minds that doesn't agree with our religious jargon.

Sin could not have sprung up in God's creation with Him being unawares of it's existence before hand. I don't understand how it is so hard to grasp the fact that everything in the creation was created by God for His purpose. If it weren't so then it could not and can not exist within the sphere of this creation. The creation is alive and thrives in God and nothing can enter in without His divine providence and will.

The creation is not like an omelet that can have things added to it without the master chef's input. If the master doesn't add the ingredients it doesn't get added.

hismessenger

If God created sin, then it means he knew what sin really is, the feeling, the urge, the lust, and this is IMPOSSIBLE, as in Him there is no sin.

But because in him there is no sin, he only knew the cause of sin to humanity, the wage of sin which is death, the separation with Him, the anguish, the pain but all is what sin would made to man.

But how could he knew the feeling of sin, the urge, the lust, the strength, the dominion, if not by tasting for himself what sin is? And that is what Jesus did.

If God created sin, there is no need for redemption, and God is not as what he told us about himself in the Scripture.

As a creator of sin, he knew all what sin is about, and thus, to every one that believe him, he could give them power to overcome sin, there is no need for redemption.

 

[billybtennessee]

Reminds one of the old 'Flip Wilson Show'. Instead of 'The devil made me do it'. Now it is God who did, at least according to some folks. Judgement day is still coming. It will all get sorted out then.

 

[Hismessenger]

Let me ask you what is your definition of sin.?

hismessenger

 

[billybtennessee]

Let me ask you what is your definition of sin.?

hismessenger

You ask questions and answer none asked of you? Post #106. Don't work that way.

 

[Hismessenger]

billybtennessee,

In response to post 106 there are many scripture which show that a persons end has already been determined but I will post just a few. THen I would like a response on what your take is on sin.

1Ti 5:24Some men's sins are clearly evident, preceding [them] to judgment, but those of some [men] follow later.

1Ti 5:25 Likewise, the good works [of some] are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden.

Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Isa 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

KJV - Isa 45:7 -I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

​

NKJV - Isa 45:7 - I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.'

​

NLT - Isa 45:7 - I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

​

NIV - Isa 45:7 - I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

​

ESV - Isa 45:7 - I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

And last but not least;

Exd 9:16 And in very deed for this [cause] have I raised thee up, for to shew [in] thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

That last verse is talking about Pharaoh. I post this to show the passages from Isa are without rebuttal in truth. Man likes to believe that He has choice but when you look at the overall picture, mans choices are ultimately going to bring about the divine will of God in every situation. If God has decreed it it SHALL come to pass and he makes it very clear. Did he not tell Israel that he would deliver them from bondage 4 hundred years before it occurred?

Now if you will answer the question on your definition of sin, I believe that we will have a place to start this over again with more light on the subject.


I posted the different versions of the bible so there could be no misunderstanding of what is said.

All the scripture show things which God was and is the cause of. I ask you this one last question on this post. If man has a choice how come Pharaoh's choice didn't stand up when He decided to let the people go?

hismessenger

 

[billybtennessee]

billybtennessee,

In response to post 106 there are many scripture which show that a persons end has already been determined but I will post just a few. THen I would like a response on what your take is on sin.

That last verse is talking about Pharaoh. I post this to show the passages from Isa are without rebuttal in truth. Man likes to believe that He has choice but when you look at the overall picture, mans choices are ultimately going to bring about the divine will of God in every situation. If God has decreed it it SHALL come to pass and he makes it very clear. Did he not tell Israel that he would deliver them from bondage 4 hundred years before it occurred?

Now if you will answer the question on your definition of sin, I believe that we will have a place to start this over again with more light on the subject.


I posted the different versions of the bible so there could be no misunderstanding of what is said.

All the scripture show things which God was and is the cause of. I ask you this one last question on this post. If man has a choice how come Pharaoh's choice didn't stand up when He decided to let the people go?

hismessenger

You did not answer a single question in post#106. Do that, and stop dodging, and we can have a civil two-way discussion.

I am well aware of the various interpretations of Isa. 45:7. You used the one frankly, that the majority of scholars will reject, when taken to the depth presented here. There are various meanings in that word used, 'evil', and when taken with the whole of Gods character, and the text it was written in, most will interpret 'calamity, adversity, affliction, and evil', but most will not use this text to teach what is presented here. God had brought this upon Israel because of their disobedience and unfaithfulness, and now God is going to show mercy and use Cyrus in their return, this is the context. One particular sect in theological thought uses that interpretation, evil, as in what is presented in this post and some in the thread. You certainly have the freedom to do that, and that is how God designed, obviously, to give men choice, that is what holds them accountable. Without the atonement of Christ through faith, we can not please God, no issue there. Heb. 11:6.

So, how about answering the specific questions asked, in post #106, last paragraph, you did not here, then let's talk about yours. Scripture will define sin, and that is how I will, though.

 

[Hismessenger]

So let me ask. What is Gods desire for all men? Who does God invite to come? Who is the gospel to be preached to? But, "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt. 7:14. How do you explain that verse?

Let me make it crystal clear and if you argue with this you have already answered my question. God wants all men to understand and follow His will by faith. Scripture says in all thy getting, get understanding. What is the understanding, that this is God's world and he does what he wants in the kingdom of men and no one can stay his hand if he has set his mind to it.

Hope that is simple enough for it doesn't take all the wrangling of scripture to know the truth of what I have said.

hismessenger

 

[billybtennessee]

So let me ask. What is Gods desire for all men? Who does God invite to come? Who is the gospel to be preached to? But, "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt. 7:14. How do you explain that verse?

1st question, 1st Tim. 2:4, "Who will (God) have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (God in parentheses added, shown in verse 3)

2nd question, John 3:16-21, Rev. 22:17. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. 18. He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
Rev. 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

3rd question, Mark 16:15,16. "And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Matt. 7:14? Matt. 7:15-27. Known by their fruit, verses 15-23. "he that doeth the will of My Father", verse 21. "whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them" verses 24,25.

 

[Hismessenger]

Mark 16:15,16. "And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

What is it that he that believeth is suppose to believe. That this is God's creation ad he does whatever he desires in the kingdom of men. Fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom but trying to question his actions is outright foolishness.

You are basically saying the same thing I just posted. He that doeth the will of my father has ceased from self and allows God to have total control. That is the understanding that he is looking for by faith.

hismessenger

 

[billybtennessee]

Mark 16:15,16. "And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

What is it that he that believeth is suppose to believe. That this is God's creation ad he does whatever he desires in the kingdom of men. Fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom but trying to question his actions is outright foolishness.

You are basically saying the same thing I just posted. He that doeth the will of my father has ceased from self and allows God to have total control. That is the understanding that he is looking for by faith.

hismessenger

The gospel that is to be preached to all the world, every creature, is 'what is it that he that believeth is suppose to believe'.

And I totally agree with the rest of your comment, yet only one totally devoted to and trusting Jesus Christ will do that. Jesus Christ is central, not doctrines used of men.

 

[Hismessenger]

Define for us the gospel. Many speak about it but how many know what it truly is.

hismessenger