Was sin created by God ?

[billybtennessee]

That there is salvation in Jesus Christ. The gospel is all about Christ, and coming to God through Him. It is 'good news', because He said go preach it to all. Offered to 'whosoever will' and 'whosoever believeth'.

It is bad news to the majority of people, the way that some define it.

Just as what is presented in this post and thread about God. One can go through every sin, but sex is the biggie today. God created male and female, and told them to multiply, and to become one. When sex is within the guidelines of what God gave, it is good, and not sin. It was not God who perverted sex. The pitiful theory (scripturally it does not even qualify as a theory), that God put sexual perversion in man, and made them follow such, is not going to hold up, at judgement, period. God gives free will, choice. That God is sovereign through both evil and good, and His purpose will be done, has never been the issue. the issue is accusing God of authoring perversion, when, "in Him is no darkness at all", 1st John 1:5, and it will stay that way. But using the theology that is presented within this thread, He could be accused of such. That is a very seriously flawed theology.

 

[Hismessenger]

I believe a good read in the book of Daniel will dispel this notion that what occurs is by our choice. Here is just a brief passage to show what I mean.

If you can argue with this, I wouldn't want to fall into the hands of an angry God because of disbelief;

Dan 4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

Dan 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

Dan 4:31 While the word [was] in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, [saying], O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

Dan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling [shall be] with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
Dan 4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' [feathers], and his nails like birds' [claws].

Dan 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Now understand, Nebuchadnezzar made what he thought was His choices but God had said otherwise. The problem that most face with this is they still believe it is about us which could not be further from the truth. The whole of creation is to the glory of God. When you understand that fact and fall in line with his will, your life will change immensely for the greater good. But as long as you think what you choose is going to change the outcome of what God has decreed you are in SIN! Take special note of Nebuchadnezzar's words before his fall. He thought it was all about Him and what he wanted.

You should also read the last 5 chapters of Job for there is much wisdom in those chapters but the whole book is a must study for understanding our place in this creation.

hismessenger

 

[billybtennessee]

Well my friend, I can tell you what God has decreed for me, and for you. To believe in His Son, Jesus Christ. To walk in the Holy Spirit, 1st Thess. 5:23, in complete obedience and faithfulness. If you believe sin is involved in that decree, then you can't say nobody ever told you.

 

[Hismessenger]

Then you still must define what your definition of sin is.

hismessenger

 

[billybtennessee]

Ones I found mentioned in scripture that define sin:

regarding Sauls disobedience to instructions: (rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry), 1st Sam. 15:22,23.

an high look, proud heart, plowing (lamp) of the wicked, Prov. 21:4

thought (planning) of foolishness is sin, a scorner is an abomination, Prov. 24:9

to not believe on Christ, John 16:9

whatsoever is not of faith, Rom. 14:23

to be a respector of persons, James 2:9

to know to do good, and don't do it, James 4:17

transgression of the Law, 1st John 3:4

unrighteousness, 1st John 5:17


Also regarding sin, this was really interesting:

Is Christ the minister of sin? Gal. 2:17 (that is a no)

and this indicates sin is of and are the works of the devil, Christ is the one who destroys his works, 1st John 3:8

I do hope that you can see none of this was of my definition.

 

[Hismessenger]

I see that they are not of your understanding but rather what you have read as the definitions of types of sin. The one which stands out the most is the one which I have come to understand as sin, whatsoever is not of faith. God makes a plea to us not to be concerned about what we will eat, wear, here, I will let the scripture show you the nature of sin which most who seek after righteousness never even grasp the error of what we do.

Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.

If it is not Of Faith. Do you take thought of what you will eat,drink or wear. The word says that God already knows what we need . We are to be seeking the kingdom of God first. To do the other is to be in sin and most don't even realize that they are. Why, because it is His will for our lives to trust Him by faith but yet we do the other without even a thought of what we have done.

Jesus gave us great detail into the nature of sin in this chapter of Mat.;

Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Mat 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

Mat 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

Mat 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
Mat 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?

So now ponder on this chapter and let it mellow in your heart. For it opens the door to the light of the truth. Sin is to not walk by faith in the lords provisions for our lives. Faith says I trust Him no matter what it looks like. He has it all in hand before we ever had a thought. What did Job say about his faith in God? Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.

Too many believe that sin is to disobey the law and the commandments but true sin is to go against the will of God in whatever the situation that you find yourself in. You must walk by faith in every aspect of your life understanding that our failures are not failures in His eyes if you gain the light of understanding from them. Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Repentance is to understand and then allow the spirit to make the change in your life. Prayer is to find out God's will for our lives, not for our wish list of food and drinks and clothing.

hismessenger

 

[billybtennessee]

I see that they are not of your understanding but rather what you have read as the definitions of types of sin. The one which stands out the most is the one which I have come to understand as sin, whatsoever is not of faith.

That one may stand out the most to you, but to scripturally define sin we have to take them all. We always use the whole of Gods word.

But yes, 'whatsoever is not of faith is sin'. We also find that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. This is why we use the whole. We also find that without works, faith is dead.

The scripture you use is good, and I have no problem with accepting anything in Gods word. It is when we start using only parts, to define something, and even use out of context with what the text actually says, that we err.

As I have already stated numerous times, God can and does use evil, and evil people and nations, He did that in the text of Isaiah 45, which is where all the discussion was about. God used the actions and purposes of evil to provide redemption through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. I do not believe God had to force anyone to do their part, they did so in free will. Some believe that men having free will somehow limit God. That thought is ridiculous. I very strongly disagree. Some believe that God purposed all the evil in the world so that He would be sovereign, I believe that God is sovereign over the evil that man and satan, and all his helpers, freely decided to do. God is pure holiness, God is perfection, He does not cast any kind of shadow in His doings. He is true light, in God there is no darkness at all. There is plenty of scripture in regards to those points, they are/were not invented by me. Evil came/comes when men, powers, rebel against God and His words, and will not submit to Gods authority.

In the fact that God created mankind, angels, nations, and all and everything else that would rebel, and refuse to submit, is nothing to debate at all. That God is sovereign over all those is also not debatable. What is debatable is to say that God created all the evil, and made all do evil without any choice. This can and will never be proven scripturally. You use Pharoah and Nebuchadnezzar, yet when we read the scripture regarding both, we can easily see God revealing Himself to both, and both would acknowledge God, but pride and refusal to submit to His authority, was their error, as it is all who choose evil. God can and will use those such as these, because He is sovereign, but to teach that they rebel and refuse to submit to God, because, well, that is just what they are meant to do, regardless, will not be proven with scripture. That is/are teachings of men who will choose to ignore the whole of scripture, who do that, and they choose as well.

If God wanted me to sin, rebel against Him, it would be hopeless for me to attempt to usurp Gods power. I just believe that God gave freedom to do so, and knew what this would lead to. Yet God provided all needed for our redemption, through Jesus Christ. God wants people to seek Him and find Him, and have faith in all He provided, and walk in faith and obedience, because we love Him. If we love Him, we will. If we love self and the world, we will not. Brother, peace to you through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Hismessenger]

If you choose anything other than his will, you are in sin, bottom line. The angels which kept their estate follow his will unflinchingly. They are holy and righteous. Satan on the other hand went against God's will and look where it got him. NOw to throw you a real curve, Satan is following the divine will of God but yet his end is destruction. Think on that.

hismessenger

 

[billybtennessee]

Dear brother. I have studied subjects such as this a long time, many years. But I do appreciate your urging, and have/will continue to study and find those treasures in Gods word. And I urge the same for you. There is nothing new under the sun. Agree, there were angels who left their first estate, they freely made their choice to rebel, but no it did not surprise God at all. They (angels), can not be reconciled as mankind can. Yes, though they left their estates, God is still sovereign, yet God is not to be blamed for their rebellion. This is what makes God all-powerful, though freedom is indeed given. Just as they chose their own fate, so do we. Yet, no, this does not limit God in any form or fashion. All works to His own sovereignity.

The day is coming, quickly, when time as we know it now will end. Gods Spirit will not always strive with man. Just as God gave those before the flood, time to repent, "yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years", His Spirit will not always strive with man. This is why scripture says "today if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness"

According to scripture, in very short time after Methuselah died, the flood came. Yes, God knows perfectly what is ahead, and when. We do not. Not one will have any excuse, and accuse God of any injustice at all, God has given witness to all, through all He has done and revealed. God desires all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. He is not far from any of us. The offer is to 'whosoever' will come and believe, among mankind. Only God knows what is in man, the heart. None of us do, though many certainly lift themselves up in their pride, and attempt to claim they do. All we can see is the fruit, and what they say and believe through their works. God alone will judge in that day, as to who is His, and who is not.

Many, however, will say in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many marvelous works?" They talked it, did much in His name, and He never knew them. Truly deceived. They no doubt believed they were saved. Brother, again, peace to you through Jesus Christ.

In Christ,
billyb

 

[Hismessenger]

It has been said that there is no darkness in God which is true. But there is an inevitable conclusion which cannot be denied for it appears in the second verse of Genesis. It must be understood that it did not exist until the creation as given by this verse since there was and is no darkness in God.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Can it be further denied that God was the creator of darkness into which he brought the light of understanding when He spoke the light into being. And it wasn't the son and the moon. They came later in the creation. God created the darkness and there is deeper understanding than just physical darkness. It has purpose for His glory.

hismessenger

 

[billybtennessee]

It has been said that there is no darkness in God which is true. But there is an inevitable conclusion which cannot be denied for it appears in the second verse of Genesis. It must be understood that it did not exist until the creation as given by this verse since there was and is no darkness in God.



Can it be further denied that God was the creator of darkness into which he brought the light of understanding when He spoke the light into being. And it wasn't the son and the moon. They came later in the creation. God created the darkness and there is deeper understanding than just physical darkness. It has purpose for His glory.

hismessenger

I see that you have taken the word darkness, in the text of the second verse of Genesis one, and used liberally in your theology. It is repeated in several other threads, also, so you have certainly made your personal point, though yes I know what theology it comes from. No doubt you went 'figurative' in the definition of 'night'. Also the definition of 'darkness' is 'figurative' in definition as well. The context does not support that though, as one follows the two words in Genesis One.

The text in Genesis Chapter one very clearly defines that word darkness. It is not defined as 'evil' in that chapter. No death and destruction is found in Gen 1:2 as you have inserted either, liberal theology inserts it, the text does not. Man and science of man is behind that insertion. God said in Gen. 1:31, all was 'very good'. Your explanation fulfills Isa. 5:20. I respect your choice in that. Your theology acknowledges God purposed you too, to do that. I respect your choice, or your purpose, depending on which side one is on. We just disagree. In that God created satan and all of those who rebel against Him, knowing all beforehand, and using for His own purpose, has never been questioned, not by me anyhow. The disagreement is about did they all choose to do as they did, and God worked through all this evil, or did God give them no choice, and just create wickedness, against their own choice in doing it. Yes, I know the verses one will likely go to there. I also know 2nd Pet. 3:9, and 1st Tim. 2:4, and believe 'whosoever', really means the offer is to whosoever. Again peace to you, in Jesus Christ the Lord.

 

[Hismessenger]

I never said that the darkness was evil. I said the darkness was the lack of recognition of the creator. You said those things because of your own mindset in what you believe to be the defense of the word. The word needs no defense, only understanding.

Can it be further denied that God was the creator of darkness into which he brought the light of understanding

What I say to you is how is it that the wind and the waves obey His will and the stars are called by him by their name. Were they created with this or was it the light of understanding given to them by the creator God.

The religious mind will always run to the carnal side of understanding but the mind of the spirit says how so? For it is seeking to understand what it must to be in right standing with God.

My point was simply that there was no darkness of any sort until He began the creative process.

hismessenger

 

[billybtennessee]

I read the same scripture (Gen 1:2), and explanation you gave in the other thread. Going by the titles of these threads, and the many comments made in each, and then the quote from Gen. 1:2, and saying that darkness was more than a physical darkness, I thought you were saying that. If I was indeed wrong, my apologies.

 

[addo]

How can sin be of God since sin is simply going astray, abandoning the plan, disobeying Him. God created persons who had the option of choosing someone else, thus disobeying him. Therefore, I am justified in saying that sin is a product of the creatures God created.

 

[Arthur57]

How can sin be of God since sin is simply going astray, abandoning the plan, disobeying Him. God created persons who had the option of choosing someone else, thus disobeying him. Therefore, I am justified in saying that sin is a product of the creatures God created.

I agree with that.

 

[Hismessenger]

How can sin not be of God for without God's sustaining power, there would be no creation and therefore, no sin. The problem is that we want to put our judgment on something which we really don't know or understand the true nature of or it's overall purpose. If it is in the creation it has purpose for God, bottom line. Nothing can occur in the creation that he is not aware of before it happens. God's plan is not dependent upon man for man is a part of God's plan.

hismessenger

 

[Ormly]

Its clearly taught in scripture, for those who are of God, that sin was created by and for God, yes, it in all its evil, only serve the wise purpose of God, in the salvation of His people, through our Lord Jesus christ..

Only Gods True sheep will hear Gods voice in this blessed truth, but Gods enemies will reject and contradict it, but this too, is the pleasure of the Lord..

It is clearly taught in scripture that sin originated within the heart of Lucifer by the act of his freewill in rebelling against God. In this is it stated that "Thou wert perfect in all your ways UNTIL iniquity was found in you." Iniquity = sin

 

[Ormly]

How can sin not be of God for without God's sustaining power, there would be no creation and therefore, no sin. The problem is that we want to put our judgment on something which we really don't know or understand the true nature of or it's overall purpose. If it is in the creation it has purpose for God, bottom line. Nothing can occur in the creation that he is not aware of before it happens. God's plan is not dependent upon man for man is a part of God's plan.

hismessenger

<scratching head> Then apparently Adam was created to sin just so he and we could be redeemed? Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense that Holy God, in whose presence sin is not allowed, would have in His thinking such an intention for man. . . or for Himself to rectify that He might have fellowship with man.

 

[Hismessenger]

If Christ was ordained to be the savior of the world in the planning stages of the creation, ultimately Adam had to sin or else the word of God would have been void. Can't happen. Because we can't fully see the picture, we try and place our understanding upon something which we don't have a clue of the purpose. Only God. The only thing which I know is that the entire creation is for the Glory of God.

I was watching a music award show the other day and it hit me. Even some of the worst offending lyrics spoken of by some of the artist and the first thing they will say is all honor to God. He gets his praise even in the midst of the wickedness. How can you understand a mind like that? His ways are unsearchable is what the words says but yet we try and limit him to what we think. Not I for I have come to realize that He wrote the script and we are only the players in His play. You have good and bad but yet they all have their place in His play. It is truly HISTORY His Story. Nothing happens that he didn't pen in His mind. There is no add-libbing in His script and nothing changes what he has purposed. Believe it or not.

hismessenger