Was segregation better?

[Timahani]

Hey Everyone,

Before you get bent out of shape Lol ! Let me explain what I mean. Although most people, especially if they are truly Christian do NOT agree with Jim Crow laws. For those of you who didn't know the Jim Crow laws separated whites from colored people in every aspect of society. From restaurants, to restrooms, water fountains, schools etc.

Anyways, some recent research suggest that the Black community did better in those days economically because they were forced to support black businesses, restaurants, black teachers were employed in black schools etc. Also there were a high number of blacks supporting black business which also helped the community flourish. Although my great grandmother was a wealthy French creole women, and my great grandfather a black and native American man. I remember they were some of the most well off people of color in our state during that time. I lived with them when I was little. We had our main house, our guest house, our farm, my papas trucking business, we owned two other lots down the streets that we parked all our major diesels on and great grandmother had a chauffer and did not drive. Although she was French Creole in appearance she stuck by the colored community. She was treated as a queen and my papa provided everything for her.

Most people in their generation were well respected, the family system was intact, the women did not work. After my great grandmothers passing I was raised by my grandmother both maternal and paternal. So I really got to see the generational differences in this community. Each generation the financial and family issues were more broken.

What broke down the black family? Did integration help break that down? Or did American families and businesses break down as a whole? ( I am not sure about white families and their historical issues in reference to business). Or do you all think that the break down is due to a lack of morals and hard work ethic found in every American household? (as a result of secular music, cultural influences, demoralizing images of women)?

I think integration did effect the Black community financially and then 2000 culture of today does not help at all . What are your thoughts?

 

[Timahani]

Segregation is NOT the solution! I am not advocating that. But I am not sure how the black society can flourish again .

 

[timewerx]

Also blame the entertainment business for associating blacks with gangs and drugs.

Showbiz actually makes it look cool for blacks and colored to be the bad boys of society

Most people just "go with the flow" and entertainment media is making it a lot worse by making people "flow" in the wrong direction which they make us think is cool but is ruining our society.

 

[timewerx]

Segregation is NOT the solution! I am not advocating that. But I am not sure how the black society can flourish again .

I think entertainment media/showbiz has a lot to do with it. If you think I'm wrong, they usually set trends and many people will follow....Because people will follow that which looks cool or hip on them

Back in the days, the blacks were seldom portrayed as "bad boys". Either they don't show up or show up as jazz stars.

But now, showbiz actually makes us think that colored people having lots of money to buy drugs is a cool thing. Unlike in the past where the blacks thought that Jazz is cool, now they think degenerate music that objectifies women and glorifies drugs is the cool thing.

Some of you might tell me, it's their fault but it's really hard to break from peer pressure. And it's also very wrong to enforce people the wrong values under the guise of "ART" as what the showbiz is doing.

If I can do something about it, I would actually ban such movies or any form of art that encourages wrong values to people.

 

[paul1149]

I don't think segregation is a good solution. Ironically, increasingly it is the Left that is now promoting and practicing it.

I think what has hurt the Black community more than anything is projecting responsibility for its problems onto the white man. Along with that came the victimization culture, with politicians all too willing to exploit it as long as they continued to be elected. That led to welfare, which government does not do well, because it divorces it from moral judgment. As a result we have a huge number of people who blame another race for their own problems. And by and large, that is preposterous. Somewhere along the line we went from MLK's dream of a colorblind society to "you owe me". This has done nothing but divide the races bitterly and make America largely unworkable.

The answer is self-respect and personal responsibility. There is a whole class of politicians and religious/civic leaders (who almost invariably lead a very nice lifestyle indeed) that need to get kicked to the curb. I actually think this is happening, but because that class is in dramatic death-throes, it's hard to see it sometimes.

 

[archer75]

I think we need some Black Americans on this thread.

 

[RDKirk]

I'll say more about this when I have more time.

But I'm old enough to remember having to observe "white" and "colored" signage. For that matter, the last day I had to sit in segregated movie seating was July 20, 1969.

I had never even met a white person--never knew one by name, had never even been on the same playground as a white kid--until I was in the 7th grade. All of my teachers, everyone I'd ever known, had been black.

The myth of blacks being successful in segregation is, first, that the white community never let it be "equal." When a black business became lucrative, white authorities either eliminated it or consumed it.

Even without that pressure, within a 10% demographic, there was not enough space for real wealth, except in a few narrow markets. It meant that the very brightest would always be hamstrung. I had elementary teachers who could have been college professors--but there could not be enough black colleges.

Segregation, at best, was a very small Petri dish.

 

[archer75]

The OP says "recent research" but cites none. Before bringing up this issue with a notion like "maybe segregation was better," it would have been worthwhile to read at least some Wikipedia entries on related matters, see what they refer to, and so on.

I see we have contributions now from someone with personal experience of these matters, so I'll leave it at that. Take care.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I actually doubt that segregation was beneficial to the black community in the way the OP suggests. But I can't know. Where I grew up (also in Louisiana) segregation was alive and well in many cases, and it seemed both the black and white communities wanted it that way. It was me, coming from a northern upbringing at age 7, making friends with black children (in particular playing with a black boy on the playground) that set the whole community in an uproar. The blacks were as indignant as the whites. I was clueless. But in the rural setting, generally speaking, there wasn't always a huge gap in how well off people are. The farms mostly looked the same from the outside, and reflected how hard the people worked them, not how much money they had. (Funny, I'm remembering two exceptions - apparently two wealthy white families - and the funny thing is, those were the children who were not the kind I wanted for friends when I would visit). We then moved to the city, into a "ghetto" neighborhood for some years.



Anyway - what I mostly wanted to say, was that even though I don't think the premise of segregation being beneficial financially for blacks is the case, I believe that EVEN IF IT WERE ... if we reestablished that today, the effects would be different. There is currently still far too much public animosity in some places, and the result would very likely be something different than we saw in the last century.


And as a teacher working in many different public schools, I would agree that there is some influence on the children, probably from musicians mostly, who glamorize the whole "thug" aspect. Not only do so many black youth model their behavior in that way, but there are many white youth who try to "act black" and adopt the same speech and actions, and apparently it gives them some license to bully others and act in whatever way they like. I don't understand it all, but it's very much what I see happening in some schools.

 

[Timahani]

The OP says "recent research" but cites none. Before bringing up this issue with a notion like "maybe segregation was better," it would have been worthwhile to read at least some Wikipedia entries on related matters, see what they refer to, and so on.

I see we have contributions now from someone with personal experience of these matters, so I'll leave it at that. Take care.

I also shared my personal experience with my great grandparents who lived and flourished in an all black community.I didnt know this was a college research paper but if you would like citations I can provide that.Or are u just making a snide comment.Im not sure.

 

[Timahani]

I actually doubt that segregation was beneficial to the black community in the way the OP suggests. But I can't know. Where I grew up (also in Louisiana) segregation was alive and well in many cases, and it seemed both the black and white communities wanted it that way. It was me, coming from a northern upbringing at age 7, making friends with black children (in particular playing with a black boy on the playground) that set the whole community in an uproar. The blacks were as indignant as the whites. I was clueless. But in the rural setting, generally speaking, there wasn't always a huge gap in how well off people are. The farms mostly looked the same from the outside, and reflected how hard the people worked them, not how much money they had. (Funny, I'm remembering two exceptions - apparently two wealthy white families - and the funny thing is, those were the children who were not the kind I wanted for friends when I would visit). We then moved to the city, into a "ghetto" neighborhood for some years.



Anyway - what I mostly wanted to say, was that even though I don't think the premise of segregation being beneficial financially for blacks is the case, I believe that EVEN IF IT WERE ... if we reestablished that today, the effects would be different. There is currently still far too much public animosity in some places, and the result would very likely be something different than we saw in the last century.


And as a teacher working in many different public schools, I would agree that there is some influence on the children, probably from musicians mostly, who glamorize the whole "thug" aspect. Not only do so many black youth model their behavior in that way, but there are many white youth who try to "act black" and adopt the same speech and actions, and apparently it gives them some license to bully others and act in whatever way they like. I don't understand it all, but it's very much what I see happening in some schools.

I agreed with u, up until the point where linked that thug aspect to "acting black". And I am saying this with a great tone . Honey the hood is full of black, poor whites, natives, hispanics, and asians .And that thug culture which is seen in every race around the world. If u go to the prison they are all tattooed, foul mouth, fighting, ill mannered individuals, who are often uneducated and lack proper grammatical skills, but thats not ACTING BLACK. Thats a reflection of thug culture!

Now if you are saying that the thug culture is being spread to black you and white youth as well are imitating it I agree. Thats another thread but yes it is impacting the black community and effecting it.

 

[Timahani]

I actually doubt that segregation was beneficial to the black community in the way the OP suggests. But I can't know. Where I grew up (also in Louisiana) segregation was alive and well in many cases, and it seemed both the black and white communities wanted it that way. It was me, coming from a northern upbringing at age 7, making friends with black children (in particular playing with a black boy on the playground) that set the whole community in an uproar. The blacks were as indignant as the whites. I was clueless. But in the rural setting, generally speaking, there wasn't always a huge gap in how well off people are. The farms mostly looked the same from the outside, and reflected how hard the people worked them, not how much money they had. (Funny, I'm remembering two exceptions - apparently two wealthy white families - and the funny thing is, those were the children who were not the kind I wanted for friends when I would visit). We then moved to the city, into a "ghetto" neighborhood for some years.



Anyway - what I mostly wanted to say, was that even though I don't think the premise of segregation being beneficial financially for blacks is the case, I believe that EVEN IF IT WERE ... if we reestablished that today, the effects would be different. There is currently still far too much public animosity in some places, and the result would very likely be something different than we saw in the last century.


And as a teacher working in many different public schools, I would agree that there is some influence on the children, probably from musicians mostly, who glamorize the whole "thug" aspect. Not only do so many black youth model their behavior in that way, but there are many white youth who try to "act black" and adopt the same speech and actions, and apparently it gives them some license to bully others and act in whatever way they like. I don't understand it all, but it's very much what I see happening in some schools.

Hey Anastasia,
Your world may be a little bit different than my world.I am speaking from personal experience, from my native state,and I am speaking as a person of color (who is a teacher as well) , about my community. The older black generations in my town had a sense of pride in their community, many blacks including my family owned properties,and black businesses.Many of the individuals in my community over 60 have beautiful homes and are fairly well off.My grandmother told me that you could not buy a house in our era unless you were an upperclass or educated black person.Its the only little black community standing. Since all of my relatives live within that 10 mile radius, as the older generations pass I watch the government building projects etc into these beautiful communities and many are changing for the worst bc this generation does not have the same values as those during my grandparents generation.

Was segregation better in all aspects..ABSOLUTLY NOT! Were there benefits both financially and a sense of cultural unity absolutely . When u have no choice, and your fighting a 300 year old racist goverment (at that time), they had no choice but to stick together. Thanks for your comment

 

[Timahani]

I don't think segregation is a good solution. Ironically, increasingly it is the Left that is now promoting and practicing it.

I think what has hurt the Black community more than anything is projecting responsibility for its problems onto the white man. Along with that came the victimization culture, with politicians all too willing to exploit it as long as they continued to be elected. That led to welfare, which government does not do well, because it divorces it from moral judgment. As a result we have a huge number of people who blame another race for their own problems. And by and large, that is preposterous. Somewhere along the line we went from MLK's dream of a colorblind society to "you owe me". This has done nothing but divide the races bitterly and make America largely unworkable.

The answer is self-respect and personal responsibility. There is a whole class of politicians and religious/civic leaders (who almost invariably lead a very nice lifestyle indeed) that need to get kicked to the curb. I actually think this is happening, but because that class is in dramatic death-throes, it's hard to see it sometimes.

Hey Paul my friend ,
So are u saying that the white community and the years of injustice in terms of unequal opporitunities in the job, housing, and educational components of the united states does NOT play a major role in the current condition of the black community? You dont think almost 400 or more years of oppression has not impacted them? Because if so I can educate you a bit on how those things can impact and has impacted some of my family members today. Let me know ☺

 

[~Anastasia~]

I agreed with u, up until the point where linked that thug aspect to "acting black". And I am saying this with a great tone . Honey the hood is full of black, poor whites, natives, hispanics, and asians .And that thug culture which is seen in every race around the world. If u go to the prison they are all tattooed, foul mouth, fighting, ill mannered individuals, who are often uneducated and lack proper grammatical skills, but thats not ACTING BLACK. Thats a reflection of thug culture!

Now if you are saying that the thug culture is being spread to black you and white youth as well are imitating it I agree. Thats another thread but yes it is impacting the black community and effecting it.

Forgive me, please. I knew there was something wrong with how I was saying it.

I do NOT equate "acting black" or being black with "thug culture". Lord have mercy, NO!

Yes, the thug culture is being spread. I don't even watch the videos, movies, or what have you, so I don't know the race(s) of who is involved media-wise. Yes, it's being spread to youths of all races.

How can I say this and make it make sense? Some of the black youths who pick it up act as if they own it. They act as if it's the highest summit they can aspire to. When white youth pick up on it, they act as if they are riding the coat-tails of the blacks.

I said I don't understand it. I'm also familiar with a white youth thug culture that used to be, but you don't see anymore. And I know a little of a Hispanic thug culture that isn't on my radar anymore. And I've seen an Asian thug culture, again, not prevalent here. Maybe it's geography and the local population.

But the white, Hispanic, and Asian thug cultures don't seem to make it into the spotlight or media. The white one (of old) has even become something of a laughingstock. It is the black influence that seems to have become glamorized?

I haven't given this a tremendous amount of thought. Forgive me, I hope nothing I'm saying offends. It certainly isn't an association with any race that leads to "thug-ness" as it cuts across them all. But it seems to have a different "flavor" and around here at least, only one of them is really "cool" or widespread, so it gets adopted by youths of various races? I do think it's probably the influence of music videos, movies, musicians, etc.

Please do forgive me for expressing myself so poorly. I meant no offense. In a way, I'm trying to understand what I see happening.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ugh, I still haven't expressed myself well, reading what you wrote again. You are much more right that they are alike, than that they are different, between the races. I'd have to show you particular differences I've seen for my words to make any sense. Yes, they have all the things you speak of in common. There are nuances, in some places at least. It occurs to me that I've associated with many different kinds of people in my life.

If I'm being offensive, please forgive me, and understand that I'm not managing to express the nuances of my experience. They are in my mind, but not at all making it into the thread. I think I'm coming across VERY differetly from what I mean.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hey Anastasia,
Your world may be a little bit different than my world.I am speaking from personal experience, from my native state,and I am speaking as a person of color (who is a teacher as well) , about my community. The older black generations in my town had a sense of pride in their community, many blacks including my family owned properties,and black businesses.Many of the individuals in my community over 60 have beautiful homes and are fairly well off.My grandmother told me that you could not buy a house in our era unless you were an upperclass or educated black person.Its the only little black community standing. Since all of my relatives live within that 10 mile radius, as the older generations pass I watch the government building projects etc into these beautiful communities and many are changing for the worst bc this generation does not have the same values as those during my grandparents generation.

Was segregation better in all aspects..ABSOLUTLY NOT! Were there benefits both financially and a sense of cultural unity absolutely . When u have no choice, and your fighting a 300 year old racist goverment (at that time), they had no choice but to stick together. Thanks for your comment

Only one thing I wish to add. And yes, our experience has been very different in many ways. I'm actually VERY interested in your experience, and wish I could understand you and the culture you come from even more deeply.

But what I wanted to comment on is that I too, even coming from a poorer community, have seen a certain (good) pride, a sense of dignity, in the blacks of the older generation. I have loved seeing that sense of dignity, though when it was in a stranger, it had the effect of creating a wall between us (as I am white, and younger than the people I speak of).

But that sense of dignity made a deep impression on me, such that I recall it easily decades later, and it has made a difference in how I view all people of all races.

Forgive me, I tend to be a bit blinded - in a good way I think. Though it sometimes doesn't serve well. My husband is an immigrant, and is particularly aware of race issues and discrimination at times, and I fail sometimes to anticipate or appreciate the degree to which it can have an effect. I have been very sadly surprised sometimes.

 

[Timahani]

Ugh, I still haven't expressed myself well, reading what you wrote again. You are much more right that they are alike, than that they are different, between the races. I'd have to show you particular differences I've seen for my words to make any sense. Yes, they have all the things you speak of in common. There are nuances, in some places at least. It occurs to me that I've associated with many different kinds of people in my life.

If I'm being offensive, please forgive me, and understand that I'm not managing to express the nuances of my experience. They are in my mind, but not at all making it into the thread. I think I'm coming across VERY differetly from what I mean.

No hun,
You werent offensive at ALL ☺☺,they pick up drug dealers, newly released inmates, from the projects (black of coarse) and they give him/her millions of dollars and they sale this to the innner city kids.Whose parents dont have enough sense to put a stop to it.Yes, its terrible.Its wrong, blacks are wrong for promoting it, rich white executives for producing some of it, and people for buying.!

I agree with u , it has turned society upside down and I am a person of color who will openly condemn it and those who follow it.

You are on the right track, no worries. Gospel music, the church plays a HUGE role also in black society.Thats why the Mann family, and Tyler Perrys Made movies about strong southern christian black women is beyond successful in our community. But they American tv networks denied Tyler Perry the opporitunity to share that and thus he cteated his own billionaire network.

I think it is a geographic thing because in California the multitacial thug culture is No joke. They have one of the largest and most diverse gangs. Even the asians speak slang just like the blacks and latinos. And because my state borders California,I would always hear growing up about violence committed by thugs.

 

[archer75]

I was a little inappropriate in my phrasing earlier on this thread, for which I apologize.

 

[~Anastasia~]

No hun,
You werent offensive at ALL ☺☺,they pick up drug dealers, newly released inmates, from the projects (black of coarse) and they give him/her millions of dollars and they sale this to the innner city kids.Whose parents dont have enough sense to put a stop to it.Yes, its terrible.Its wrong, blacks are wrong for promoting it, rich white executives for producing some of it, and people for buying.!

I agree with u , it has turned society upside down and I am a person of color who will openly condemn it and those who follow it.

You are on the right track, no worries. Gospel music, the church plays a HUGE role also in black society.Thats why the Mann family, and Tyler Perrys Made movies about strong southern christian black women is beyond successful in our community. But they American tv networks denied Tyler Perry the opporitunity to share that and thus he cteated his own billionaire network.

I think it is a geographic thing because in California the multitacial thug culture is No joke. They have one of the largest and most diverse gangs. Even the asians speak slang just like the blacks and latinos. And because my state borders California,I would always hear growing up about violence committed by thugs.

Wow ... well thanks for the extra insight. I see the results, but NO IDEA what's really driving it.

My heart breaks for this.

I kind of wondered what happened with Tyler Perry. I have dearly loved some of the themes he brought up.

(Not to mention I see a few characters - I mentioned that we moved to a slum-type neighborhood for a while. I was often the only white child at my school. But I still remember with very great fondness some of the mothers and grandmothers of the other children. I can't say it was easy for me to make friends there, so it wasn't my peers who were my real friends, but I loved many of their mothers and grandmothers and aunts.)


ETA and I'm so glad I didn't offend.

 

[Timahani]

The OP says "recent research" but cites none. Before bringing up this issue with a notion like "maybe segregation was better," it would have been worthwhile to read at least some Wikipedia entries on related matters, see what they refer to, and so on.

I see we have contributions now from someone with personal experience of these matters, so I'll leave it at that. Take care.

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I havent READ much about this. I just hear black leaders saying that segregation helped the black community to be more stable and many are in favor of building up the black community. So I was thinking through this issue.