Was Noah's flood global?

[TheCabinetGuy]

There was a global flood, just not at the time of Noah. His flood destroyed Eden. All of this is in the Bible. The Bible is a history of Eden. This area is still under the Persian Gulf today.

I came to a different conclusion on where the Garden of Eden was...

Millions of years is total BS...

 

[The Barbarian]

Even secular scientists admit that something caused over mile-high tsunamis that wiped out the dinosaurs.

Actually, no. The "nuclear winter" of dust in the atmosphere killed off all the larger land animals. If it was just a big wave, it would have taken out large and small alike. Coastal areas of N. America, likely. Otherwise not.

That it was an asteroid is only a theory... which is very unlikely.

They've found it. The crater, the remains of the asteroid, etc. It hit right at the end of the Cretaceous. And left a layer of iridium dust all over the world at that time.

 

[TheCabinetGuy]

Ok then how did all of those layers get there? You are right I do know a little bit about the amount of water pressure it would take to form the grand canyon.

The seismic activity when the springs of the great deep burst forth produced over mile-high tsunamis. Secular scientists say that it was caused by an asteroid, but the big problem is that an asteroid would not cause multiple waves but only 1. The different layers are different waves, not epochs of time. Each layer was laid down flat. It is extremely unlikely that these layers were undisturbed for millions of years until the next layer was laid down.

 

[rturner76]

reference?

Out of the many stories that came up in my search, this website seemed to have the most references to many of the indigenous peoples's stories about the great flood. One story told by the Apache Nation also says there was an indigenous "Noah" who built a great vessel.

Flood Legends from the Americas, Part 1

Oral traditions of the global flood from the continental United States are more prevalent than previously thought and confirm the truth of the Genesis account.

answersingenesis.org

 

[rturner76]

Not according to God's word. If it was, he would have used "tebel" (world), not eretz (land).

Maybe. We would also have to consider the difference between "his land" "a land" or THE land" etc.

So either there was one great flood, or floods have happened in places all over the world. And given that there is no evidence for "all around the same time" I'm pretty sure which.

I agree that there could have been multiple floods as there a still multiple floods all over the world today. The thing is that many of these accounts from ancient tribal oral history and carvings etc. include the severity of the flood by recounting

“Rains fell on the earth for 45 days. The rising waters wiped out all peoples with the lone exception of an old man atop Spirit Mountain.” Then a bird was sent out, and on its second flight it returned “with grass in its beak to inform the man that the waters had receded.”1

Well, having lived on an island in the Mississippi River, I'm well aware that floods are quite common in our continent.

I hear that's the case in South America as well.

I think it's the case anywhere there is a river. The difference is that the account above states "Rains fell on the Earth for 45 days."

 

[tonychanyt]

"Every living thing", "every creature", "all mankind"... The text means what it says.
Even secular scientists admit that something caused over mile-high tsunamis that wiped out the dinosaurs. That it was an asteroid is only a theory... which is very unlikely. An asteroid would cause only 1 wave, but there were several waves...
Again, the problem isn’t the lack of evidence but the interpretation. Did it rain for 2 million years, or did it rain for 40 days and 40 nights like the Bible said? To believe neither would be ignoring the data- that it rained A LOT...

See If you think that Noah's flood was global and wish to wager on it, and follow up there

 

[tonychanyt]

Out of the many stories that came up in my search, this website seemed to have the most references to many of the indigenous peoples's stories about the great flood. One story told by the Apache Nation also says there was an indigenous "Noah" who built a great vessel.

Flood Legends from the Americas, Part 1

Oral traditions of the global flood from the continental United States are more prevalent than previously thought and confirm the truth of the Genesis account.

answersingenesis.org

Did they all die in the flood?

 

[The Barbarian]

The thing is that many of these accounts from ancient tribal oral history and carvings etc. include the severity of the flood by recounting

“Rains fell on the earth for 45 days. The rising waters wiped out all peoples with the lone exception of an old man atop Spirit Mountain.” Then a bird was sent out, and on its second flight it returned “with grass in its beak to inform the man that the waters had receded.”1

Checkable links?

 

[The Barbarian]

So magnetic north is not the same as true north based on the axis of the earth?

Correct.

About 500 km difference right now. But the magnetic poles mover around a bit over time.

 

[trophy33]

Was Noah's flood global?

This is anachronism. They had no concept of the globe/global.

Their "whole world" looked something like this:

Possibly even smaller.

 

[rturner76]

Did they all die in the flood?

The flood legend I cited from ancient rock carvings at Spirit Mountain and this is a quote from the analysis of the legend and rock carving. I will quote from a few more legends from the Southwest area of the US. There are legends that have come to light from different tribes in all areas of the USA. Of course this does not mean that all of these legends refer to Noah's specific flood but they do predate history and some are very similar. One other thing to consider is that stories may have been adapted from early minnionary accounts of Genesis but the carvings seem to predate the time of the colonization of North America by many years. If you check out the website that I am quoting from, they have a list of sources that they used and you can decide how credible these sources are. There may have been multiple floods in various parts of the world but I tend to believe that the Noah's flood may have had a global impact. I'll quote a couple legends from the Southwest.

"Beginning in Arizona, the Hualapai possess ancient rock carvings at Spirit Mountain, long predating the arrival of Europeans, which recount the flood and depict eight survivors."

“The earth was rent in great chasms,” said the Hopi, when God sent the flood in his wrath. They replace the ark with hollow floating reeds, and they have a memory of the birds sent to see if the flood was ending.5 The Navajo attribute the flood to man’s sinning and spoke of a “reed of great size” as the floating vessel. “When they were all safely inside, the opening closed, and none too soon, for scarcely had it closed when they heard the loud noise of the surging waters outside.” They also retain a vague memory of Noah’s raven and dove.6 The Acagchemem of southern California commemorated the flood in their songs and have a memory of God’s promise to Noah, never again to destroy the world with a flood.7

From the same website.

Pacific Northwest US Flood Legends​

Great Plains and Northern Rockies Flood Legends​

Midwest US Flood Legends​

Northeast US Flood Legends​

Southeast US Flood Legends​

 

[rturner76]

Checkable links?

I put a link in another post but these specific legends I got from this website called "Answers in Genesis." Of course, flooding has happened all over the world at all times in history but some of these legends are very similar to the story of Noah. They also have listed their sources.

Flood Legends from the Americas, Part 1

Oral traditions of the global flood from the continental United States are more prevalent than previously thought and confirm the truth of the Genesis account.

answersingenesis.org

 

[tonychanyt]

The flood legend I cited from ancient rock carvings

Who did the carvings?

 

[The Barbarian]

I put a link in another post but these specific legends I got from this website called "Answers in Genesis."

Not a very reputable source. Do you have anything checkable?

Of course, flooding has happened all over the world at all times in history but some of these legends are very similar to the story of Noah.

For the reason you mentioned. Since catastrophic floods are relatively common, it's not surprising that many diverse cultures have stories about them. And they don't seem remotely like the Noah story. The first example from AIG:

The Havasupai, another tribe inhabiting the Grand Canyon area, said that one girl survived the flood inside a hollow, floating tree, which is their version of the ark. “In this hollow tree he [God] placed food and other necessities, and also made a lookout window.”2

Flood Legends from the Americas, Part 1

Oral traditions of the global flood from the continental United States are more prevalent than previously thought and confirm the truth of the Genesis account.

answersingenesis.org

Wrong gender, no animals, no Ark or boat, no other people... The only thing in common is a flood.

 

[rturner76]

Who did the carvings?

From the website I was referencing:

"the Hualapai possess ancient rock carvings at Spirit Mountain, long predating the arrival of Europeans, which recount the flood and depict eight survivors."

Flood Legends from the Americas, Part 1

Oral traditions of the global flood from the continental United States are more prevalent than previously thought and confirm the truth of the Genesis account.

answersingenesis.org

 

[rturner76]

Not a very reputable source. Do you have anything checkable?


For the reason you mentioned. Since catastrophic floods are relatively common, it's not surprising that many diverse cultures have stories about them. And they don't seem remotely like the Noah story. The first example from AIG:

The Havasupai, another tribe inhabiting the Grand Canyon area, said that one girl survived the flood inside a hollow, floating tree, which is their version of the ark. “In this hollow tree he [God] placed food and other necessities, and also made a lookout window.”2

Flood Legends from the Americas, Part 1

Oral traditions of the global flood from the continental United States are more prevalent than previously thought and confirm the truth of the Genesis account.

answersingenesis.org

Wrong gender, no animals, no Ark or boat, no other people... The only thing in common is a flood.

That's what I'm getting at, there was a common flood. I wouldn't expect the indigenous people of North and South America to know about Noah but it seems they did have people who knew it was coming and prepared for it while most of the population didn't in the Americas. Plus there are flood stories that come out of just about every continent.

 

[tonychanyt]

From the website I was referencing:

"the Hualapai possess ancient rock carvings at Spirit Mountain, long predating the arrival of Europeans, which recount the flood and depict eight survivors."

Flood Legends from the Americas, Part 1

Oral traditions of the global flood from the continental United States are more prevalent than previously thought and confirm the truth of the Genesis account.

answersingenesis.org

Then, the carvers were descendents of Noah. They were not depicting the flood in America.

 

[The Barbarian]

Wrong gender, no animals, no Ark or boat, no other people... The only thing in common is a flood.

That's what I'm getting at, there was a common flood.

History shows your assumption is wrong. There have been catastrophic floods at different times all over the world. The assumption that they are all the same flood is demonstrably false.

I wouldn't expect the indigenous people of North and South America to know about Noah

If the creationist model is right, they'd be descended from Noah, and would know about him just as Hebrews did.

Plus there are flood stories that come out of just about every continent.

Which means either there was one big flood all at once, or there have been many catastrophic floods in many different places. Seeing as we have historical records of many of those, the latter is really the only choice we have.

 

[Vambram]

Noah's flood is a shadow and type of the flood that took place at the time of Pangea. 95 % of everything was destroyed at the time because of the change in the atmosphere. Only turtles and crocodiles survived.

What is your interpretation of the New Testament verses which refer back to the Flood in Genesis 7 and 8?

 

[rturner76]

Wrong gender, no animals, no Ark or boat, no other people... The only thing in common is a flood.

Like I said, not every nation had a Noah but there are stories of one man saving his family and a bunch of animals.

History shows your assumption is wrong. There have been catastrophic floods at different times all over the world. The assumption that they are all the same flood is demonstrably false.

How so? Yes, there have been catastrophic floods all over the world and there are still catastrophic floods all over the world. It doesn't mean that a worldwide flood didn't happen. that's not really examining history that is seeing history through the eyes of faith and not necessarily evidence.

If the creationist model is right, they'd be descended from Noah, and would know about him just as Hebrews did.

What if the creation model is only considering the history of the Hebrew people? For example, who did Cain or Seth mate with if not their own mother? I believe the history of Genisis is the History of the Hebrew tribes and their origin.

Which means either there was one big flood all at once, or there have been many catastrophic floods in many different places. Seeing as we have historical records of many of those, the latter is really the only choice we have.

Does it have to be either or? I suppose it would if considers no history other than the history depicted in Genesis.