Was Noah's flood global?

[Vambram]

You are perhaps thinking of 2 Peter.

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the original world, but preserved Noe, the eighth person, the preacher of justice, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly.

The word translated to "world" is the Koine Greek κόσμος (kosmos), which did not mean "entire Earth." For example...

Luke 2:1 And it came to pass, that in those days there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that the whole world should be enrolled.

Now, Luke certainly knew that the decree could only apply to the part of the Earth that was under Roman Rule. He used "κόσμος" also.

Finkelberg (1998: 126) misconstrues the Greek by claiming that the rendering of κόσμος as ‘world’ or ‘world-order’ raises some problems. First, κόσμος is contrasted with ἀκολασία, but ‘world’ can hardly be the opposite of ‘intemperance’. To be sure, κόσμος is explicitly contrasted with ἀκοσμία, then elaborated (οὐδὲ) to refer to ἀκολασία by Socrates in the context of his discussion with Callicles, the determined adherent to pleonexia. This is unsurprising as a Socratic dialectical appropriation. The contrasting of opposite elements through κόσμος and ἀκοσμία is not an invention of Plato: it is attested in other contemporary philosophical contexts, before (e.g. Gorg. Hel. 1 and Pal. 30) and after Plato (e.g. Arist. Fr. 17 Rose³).

When Did Kosmos Become the Kosmos? (Chapter 1) - Cosmos in the Ancient World

Cosmos in the Ancient World - July 2019

www.cambridge.org

The whole essay is well worth reading if you really want to know about this.

And of course, there have been many massive floods in human history. One of the greatest, the flood that filled the Black Sea Basin, happened in the right place and at the right time to be the flood of Noah.

In the 80s, I went to two Bible colleges for a total of 6 years, my brother in Christ. For over 40 years, I have been already educated concerning the Greek word "kosmos" which is translated in the Bible to mean ""world."" Like most words in most languages, the definition of a word depends upon its context because most words don't have a simple, single definition. According to 2 Peter, the Lord God did not spare the original world. Also, Genesis as well as the New Testament show that God's judgment of the entire world was by water, by a global flood. The Apostle Peter makes that comparison with the prophecy of final judgment upon the world by fire when God will utterly destroy the earth.

 

[TheCabinetGuy]

Actually, no. The "nuclear winter" of dust in the atmosphere killed off all the larger land animals. If it was just a big wave, it would have taken out large and small alike. Coastal areas of N. America, likely. Otherwise not.


They've found it. The crater, the remains of the asteroid, etc. It hit right at the end of the Cretaceous. And left a layer of iridium dust all over the world at that time.

Keep in mind that iridium can also be ejected from volcanoes... After reading about whatever you claim they found, it seemed to be a hasty conclusion on what they already believe based on incomplete information.

 

[The Barbarian]

Keep in mind that iridium can also be ejected from volcanoes...

Actually, very little. The kind of massive iridium deposits caused by the Chixulub meteorite strike would not come from even massive volcanic eruptions. We know this from the Deccan Traps, which were caused by huge regional vulcanism about the same time on the opposite side of the world from the Chixulub strike. It might have been caused by that strike, and no doubt added to the loss of sunlight.

After reading about whatever you claim they found, it seemed to be a hasty conclusion on what they already believe based on incomplete information.

No,that's wrong, too. You see, Alvarez later found the predicted impact crater, that caused the iridium abnormality, confirming his hypothesis.

Iridium, being a rather heavy element, tends sink to the core of a planet. This is why it was so surprising to find that layer, right at the KT boundary, marking the extinction of almost all large land animals of the time.

 

[rturner76]

The first story cited by AIG has none of those elements.

Perhaps but others do.

It just means that flood stories can't be assumed to be the same as the one in the Bible. We can't just make up stories to fit our wishes.

I don't assume that all native legends are about the same global flood Noah survived. However, I don't think we can honestly say that there is absolutely no evidence.

Worldwide Flood, Worldwide Evidence​

Worldwide Flood, Worldwide Evidence

If there really was a catastrophic global Flood as described in Genesis, there should be global evidence left behind. How well does this match up with reality?

answersingenesis.org

"Faith" doesn't include making up non-Biblical stories.

Who says the stories are made up? I may be confused, are you saying that there are no other historical facts other than the history depicted in the Bible?

That wouldn't explain why people of other groups wouldn't know. By the creationist revision, all humans are descended from Noah.

Which means either there was one big flood all at once, or there have been many catastrophic floods in many different places. Seeing as we have historical records of many of those, the latter is really the only choice we have.

Why is it not possible that there was a global flood AND other catastrophic floods?

It would seem that past Biblical scholars and modern scientists together have estimated the time of Noah to be from generally 2000-3500 BC. according to Bible and Science.

The Bible and Science

Then consider this:

"Archaeological and genetic evidence suggests the first humans arrived in North America between approximately 25,000 and 16,000 years ago."

New data suggests a timeline for arrival of the first Americans | Around the O

New climate science outlines the likeliest windows of migration along the 'kelp highway'

around.uoregon.edu

According to archeological data people lived in North America 13-22 thousand years before Noah. How is it then not even a possibility that indigenous people of North America did not experience any effects from a global flood?

 

[The Barbarian]

In the 80s, I went to two Bible colleges for a total of 6 years, my brother in Christ. For over 40 years, I have been already educated concerning the Greek word "kosmos" which is translated in the Bible to mean ""world.""

If so, it's hard to understand why Luke records that Augustus Caesar had a census of the whole world. Impossible for him to have done that. But if Luke meant the word as it was used in those times, it would make perfect sense.

Like most words in most languages, the definition of a word depends upon its context because most words don't have a simple, single definition.

So, since God didn't say the flood was worldwide, why not just read it as it was used in the time of Augustus?

According to 2 Peter, the Lord God did not spare the original world.

Which, as we have discussed, did not mean the entire Earth.

Also, Genesis as well as the New Testament show that God's judgment of the entire world was by water, by a global flood.

It doesn't say that in scripture.

 

[The Barbarian]

The first story cited by AIG has none of those elements.

Perhaps but others do.

It's instructive that the stories get more and more like that of the Hebrews, as one gets closer to the Hebrew homeland. And they are wildly unlike the Biblical story in farther places.

I don't assume that all native legends are about the same global flood Noah survived. However, I don't think we can honestly say that there is absolutely no evidence.

What do you think is the very best evidence for a global flood, seeing as legends show us very different things, not consistent with the Biblical flood of Noah?

I may be confused, are you saying that there are no other historical facts other than the history depicted in the Bible?

I'm saying that adding things like a global flood to the Bible is wrong.
Obviously, there are all sorts of accounts about floods. Humans tend to gather along river valleys, so that's not surprising. The important clue is that Mesopotamia featured unpredictable and violent flooding, while places like Egypt saw predictable and gentle flooding that was welcomed as a means of enriching soil. Consequently, their flood stories are quite different.

China has a history of devastating floods, and so their legends are more like Noah's flood. But they are still entirely incompatible with the flood of Noah:
The Great Flood of Gun-Yu, also known as the Gun-Yu myth,[1] was a major flood in ancient China that allegedly continued for at least two generations, which resulted in great population displacements among other disasters, such as storms and famine. People left their homes to live on the high hills and mountains, or nest on the trees.[2] According to mythological and historical sources, it is traditionally dated to the third millennium BCE, or about 2300-2200 BCE, during the reign of Emperor Yao.

However, archaeological evidence of an outburst flood at Jishi Gorge on the Yellow River, comparable to similar severe events in the world in the past 10,000 years, has been dated to about 1920 BCE (a few centuries later than the traditional beginning of the Xia dynasty which came after Emperors Shun and Yao), and is suggested to have been the basis for the myth.[3]

Treated either historically or mythologically, the story of the Great Flood and the heroic attempts of the various human characters to control it and to abate the disaster is a narrative fundamental to Chinese culture. Among other things, the Great Flood of China is key to understanding the history of the founding of both the Xia dynasty and the Zhou dynasty, it is also one of the main flood motifs in Chinese mythology, and it is a major source of allusion in Classical Chinese poetry.

Great Flood (China) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Vambram]

If so, it's hard to understand why Luke records that Augustus Caesar had a census of the whole world. Impossible for him to have done that. But if Luke meant the word as it was used in those times, it would make perfect sense.

So, since God didn't say the flood was worldwide, why not just read it as it was used in the time of Augustus?

Which, as we have discussed, did not mean the entire Earth.

It doesn't say that in scripture.

We are not going to agree on what the Scriptures says together in the Biblical passages concerning the Genesis Flood. Therefore, you and I will agree to disagree agreeably as we have been doing on this topic.

 

[The Barbarian]

We are not going to agree on what the Scriptures says together in the Biblical passages concerning the Genesis Flood. Therefore, you and I will agree to disagree agreeably as we have been doing on this topic.

Fair enough.

 

[trophy33]

Not sure what you see as symbolic or what is literal, if anything?

40 days (40 is a Hebrew symbolic number), the dove, the rainbow, clean and unclean animals (a later Mosaic concept), clean ones being in 7 pairs (symbolic number again)...

It seems the story alludes to some historic event in Mesopotamia, however the later influences and symbolism gave the story its current form.

Anyway, I did a quick look at the topo of the area and some of the lower areas are about 3000-4000 feet above sea level. So, though dramatically less than a 16,000-foot flooding, a 3,000-foot flood would cover how much of the local area, do you think? See, I'm just not sure how local, local is?

We can only speculate. Here are some common hypothesis:

1. The Black Sea deluge hypothesis suggests that around 5600 BCE, the Mediterranean Sea breached through the Bosphorus strait, rapidly flooding the Black Sea basin. This may have been the basis for the flood myths in that region.

2. A major flood around 3500 BCE in the city of Ur, possibly linked to the Sumerian flood myth of Ziusudra.

3. Flooding events around 3000-2600 BCE in Kish and Shuruppak (home of the Sumerian Noah figure Ziusudra), which some scholars have tried to link to the biblical account.

4. Some scholars propose that the flood stories were inspired by memories of periodic, localized flooding events along the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in Mesopotamia, exaggerated over time into a catastrophic global deluge.

- the watershed for the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers on which the flood could have occurred extends for more than 1600 km from the Persian Gulf through Mesopotamia into Syria and Turkey and laterally for about 1000 km from eastern Saudi Arabia to southwestern Iran — an area of more than 1.6 million square kilometers. On that basis, if abundant rain fell, not only in the mountains of Syria and Turkey, but also in Saudi Arabia and Iran, the tributary streams from these countries would all contribute their volumes of water to the flood plains of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers

However, there is no definitive archaeological evidence of a single, catastrophic regionwide flood in Mesopotamia around the traditional biblical dating of the flood (around 2500 BCE). The flood stories appear to be mythological tales drawing inspiration from various ancient flood memories and events in the region.

Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth | National Center for Science Education

Introduction The Bible (Genesis 6–9) describes a worldwide flood (the Noachian Flood) covering even the highest mountains of the earth and the construction of a huge boat (a rectangular box-like craft) that transported animals, at least two of a kind of all land animals on the earth.

ncse.ngo

The Flood: Mesopotamian Archaeological Evidence | National Center for Science Education

The assertion of some historians and archaeologists that a great flood devastated a region of Mesopotamia at the dawn of history and that this event was the origin of the biblical Flood story has become a curious backwater in the debate over creationism.

ncse.ngo

Genesis flood narrative - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Mesopotamian Origin of the Biblical Flood Story - TheTorah.com

In the Gilgamesh epic, Utanapishti tells Gilgamesh the story of the great flood and how he survived it. Scholars have often held that this story lies behind the biblical account of Noah and the flood. However, a good case can be made that an even more ancient tale, the Atrahasis epic, on which...

www.thetorah.com

 

[Diamond72]

I don't recall studying the ecosystem of Eden.

Science uses the words Adam, Eve & Eden. So we have both a both a biblical and scientific perspective:

Eden was the greatest ecosystem because this was the beginning of man being a food producer which resulted in civilization. Science has put a lot of effort into understanding how Eden spread to the rest of the world. This is called The Neolithic Revolution (Agricultural Revolution): This began 12,000 years ago which is why I say a day in Genesis is 1,000 years. It is the most easy to explain.

There are PhD's in Botany at the University in Jerusalem. They study how wild plants became domesticated. They do not write a lot of books but they do publish articles in peer review magazines. So that is better really.

The Middle East, has a rich plant diversity. A quantitative analysis of its flora reveals approximately 3,300 species (accepted names) across 908 genera belonging to 136 families of flowering plants.

Noah would not have all the wild species on the ark. Just the cultivated ones. By definition man has to gather, collect and plant the seeds. If nature does it that is called natural selection.

 

[Diamond72]

See, I'm just not sure how local, local is?

It is called the Persian Gulf. The water is still there from Noah's flood. The present shorelines was reached shortly before 6000 yr ago and exceeded as relative sea level rose 1–2 m above its present level, inundating the low-lying areas of lower Mesopotamia.

 

[Diamond72]

By the creationist revision, all humans are descended from Noah.

Gentiles are not descended from Adam and Eve. We are grafted into the family of Abraham to replace branches that were cut off. Romans 11 "17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you."

People do not seem to understand where we get our Bible from.

 

[Ted-01]

40 days (40 is a Hebrew symbolic number), the dove, the rainbow, clean and unclean animals (a later Mosaic concept), clean ones being in 7 pairs (symbolic number again)...

It seems the story alludes to some historic event in Mesopotamia, however the later influences and symbolism gave the story its current form.


We can only speculate. Here are some common hypothesis:

1. The Black Sea deluge hypothesis suggests that around 5600 BCE, the Mediterranean Sea breached through the Bosphorus strait, rapidly flooding the Black Sea basin. This may have been the basis for the flood myths in that region.

2. A major flood around 3500 BCE in the city of Ur, possibly linked to the Sumerian flood myth of Ziusudra.

3. Flooding events around 3000-2600 BCE in Kish and Shuruppak (home of the Sumerian Noah figure Ziusudra), which some scholars have tried to link to the biblical account.

4. Some scholars propose that the flood stories were inspired by memories of periodic, localized flooding events along the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in Mesopotamia, exaggerated over time into a catastrophic global deluge.

- the watershed for the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers on which the flood could have occurred extends for more than 1600 km from the Persian Gulf through Mesopotamia into Syria and Turkey and laterally for about 1000 km from eastern Saudi Arabia to southwestern Iran — an area of more than 1.6 million square kilometers. On that basis, if abundant rain fell, not only in the mountains of Syria and Turkey, but also in Saudi Arabia and Iran, the tributary streams from these countries would all contribute their volumes of water to the flood plains of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers

However, there is no definitive archaeological evidence of a single, catastrophic regionwide flood in Mesopotamia around the traditional biblical dating of the flood (around 2500 BCE). The flood stories appear to be mythological tales drawing inspiration from various ancient flood memories and events in the region.

Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth | National Center for Science Education

Introduction The Bible (Genesis 6–9) describes a worldwide flood (the Noachian Flood) covering even the highest mountains of the earth and the construction of a huge boat (a rectangular box-like craft) that transported animals, at least two of a kind of all land animals on the earth.

ncse.ngo

The Flood: Mesopotamian Archaeological Evidence | National Center for Science Education

The assertion of some historians and archaeologists that a great flood devastated a region of Mesopotamia at the dawn of history and that this event was the origin of the biblical Flood story has become a curious backwater in the debate over creationism.

ncse.ngo

Genesis flood narrative - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Mesopotamian Origin of the Biblical Flood Story - TheTorah.com

In the Gilgamesh epic, Utanapishti tells Gilgamesh the story of the great flood and how he survived it. Scholars have often held that this story lies behind the biblical account of Noah and the flood. However, a good case can be made that an even more ancient tale, the Atrahasis epic, on which...

www.thetorah.com

Wow, that's a lot of information!! Thank you for being so detailed in your response... I do appreciate the time that you must have taken to put it all together.

I guess, the most crucial for my understanding though, is that you seem to be saying that you see it all as "mythological tales". There's no real point in trying to convince anyone of the finer, and detailed points of the Biblical account if they see as pretty much fairy tales... though perhaps with some deep, philosophic meaning.

I will just point out that in any of the scenarios, if we're going to stick to the account, we have to account for getting a large boat from the Black Sea, or various locations in Mesopotamia, to the region of Ararat. Boats going up a raging river is a difficult thing, in my experience, lol. But if things are exaggerated myths, maybe you think that there was no boat to account for and that Noah didn't really exist either. IDK.

Personally, I believe that the Bible is much more that a book of fairy tales or anecdotal narratives. I thank you again for the chat!!

 

[The Barbarian]

Gentiles are not descended from Adam and Eve.

From where do you think other humans came? Jews do not seem genetically different than other humans.

 

[Diamond72]

From where do you think other humans came?

From the same common ancestor that Adam and Eve came from. The male and female that God created on day six 250 million years ago. When the atmosphere was changed at the time of pangea. So we went from reptiles to primates. In fact if you study the DNA the Hebrew Adam and Eve were the only ones alive at the same time. All the other matriarchs and patriarchs lived at different times from each other. There is a book the seven daughters of Eve but now if you look at China there are more like 19 of them. I am told that every city in China has their own matriarch. Then the Last Emperors or the Mongolian are the fathers. I had a feeling my wife was Mongolian when I married her. Turns out I was right, when we ran my sons DNA he is 1/3 Northern Asia. But he prefers to identify as Pacific Island. The amazing thing is how healthy and intelligent the children are when their parents come from two totally different parts of the world. My son graduated cum laude with a degree in computer engineering in a class where half the people flunk out and can not maintain a passing grade. Even my brother in medical school they graduate around 85 % of their class at John Hopkins.

 

[Diamond72]

Jews do not seem genetically different than other humans.

The arab continental plate was given to Abrahams descendants through Sarah and Hagar. What does the Bible say if you could count the stars or count the grains of sand you could count the descendants of Abraham. Although I just heard the blood line does not go through Solomon but another son of David. I have not researched it though.,

In America we have black, white and Hispanic. That is not enough difference for you? Then we have Asian but they are a small percentage in comparison.

 

[trophy33]

Wow, that's a lot of information!! Thank you for being so detailed in your response... I do appreciate the time that you must have taken to put it all together.

Do not worry, I asked AI and it took like 1 minute to put it together I knew about it generally, but I would not be able to answer in such complete and detailed way just from my memory. Yeah, new era...

I guess, the most crucial for my understanding though, is that you seem to be saying that you see it all as "mythological tales". There's no real point in trying to convince anyone of the finer, and detailed points of the Biblical account if they see as pretty much fairy tales... though perhaps with some deep, philosophic meaning.

Mythological stories are not fairytales. Fairytales are for children, myths were a specific genre common in the bronze age era, during Summer, Babylonia, Egypt etc. Its a way to communicate some view of the world with the use of symbolism and cultural meanings.

I will just point out that in any of the scenarios, if we're going to stick to the account, we have to account for getting a large boat from the Black Sea, or various locations in Mesopotamia, to the region of Ararat. Boats going up a raging river is a difficult thing, in my experience, lol. But if things are exaggerated myths, maybe you think that there was no boat to account for and that Noah didn't really exist either. IDK.

Nobody knows. The account contains symbolic meanings and even later "Mosaic" insertions, quite obviously. Its probable that it reflects some real floods in Mesopotamia, though. Its just not written as a scientific literal history. Maybe Ararat played some role in some historical flood event, but how precisely its described in the story, its hard to verify today.

Personally, I believe that the Bible is much more that a book of fairy tales or anecdotal narratives. I thank you again for the chat!!

I do not know of any fairy tales in the Bible. Fairy tales are for children. Bible contains myths, legends, sagas, poems, songs, laws and religious instructions, dramatical narratives, prophecies, letters, historical books, apocalyptic literature etc. Its a colorful library of many genres. Its an obvious error to read it all the same way.

 

[The Barbarian]

Bible contains myths, legends, sagas, poems, songs, laws and religious instructions, dramatical narratives, prophecies, letters, historical books, apocalyptic literature etc. Its a colorful library of many genres. Its an obvious error to read it all the same way.

Well said. It's all true, but it's not all literal history.

 

[Ted-01]

Bible contains myths, legends, sagas, poems, songs, laws and religious instructions, dramatical narratives, prophecies, letters, historical books, apocalyptic literature etc. Its a colorful library of many genres. Its an obvious error to read it all the same way.

That's an interesting view of the Bible. one of my cousins describes herself as a metaphoric Christian... I've never asked her to explain that any deeper. She's an awesome lady. I wonder if your views are similar to hers.

I on the other hand think that the Bible is indeed written, all through out, as historic narrative. It is always giving us details of peoples and places of historic note... that's very different than myths and sagas.

I understand that there are things that people of science can't confirm things in the Bible, but not being able to confirm something is not the same thing as proving something false, wouldn't you agree? I remember when I was young(er), I would always hear about archeological finds that agreed with things in the Bible. Too many to list right now. But the thing is, I also remember that prior to a particular find, there were people that would say because there was no evidence of thus and such, we know the Bible is myth and sagas, and whatever. The discovery of the Hittites was won that I specifically remember because when the first made initial discoveries, some people actually were saying that while they "discovered the Hittites" they weren't the Hittites from the Bible, lol, ridiculous. Anyway, in short, there are many instances where the Bible "speaks to sciences" of virtually all branches. I believe that of all ancient literature, it's the most comprehensive, and most accurate on many topics.

Also, unlike myths and legends, the prophecies that come out of the Old Testament are incredible. Perhaps you're already of the whole Cyrus controversy? I find it stunning. I'm not sure where you come down on the actual question of "when" the OT was written, but I go with a traditional view. To me, fulfilled prophecy moves the idea of myth and saga off the table.

But it goes on, because I think that when people relegate the Bible to myths and legends, it seems to me that you're saying that it's a construct of man and not God. Is this what you're saying? If so, how is God to be found in stories written by men? (But I guess that we'd be going off topic, if we discussed that... maybe we already are, haha).

 

[trophy33]

That's an interesting view of the Bible... on the other hand think that the Bible is indeed written, all through out, as historic narrative. It is always giving us details of peoples and places of historic note... that's very different than myths and sagas.

What myths or sagas did you read or are familiar with? What differences do you see between the details/places in them and in Noah's flood story?

... not being able to confirm something is not the same thing as proving something false, wouldn't you agree?

It depends on the context. If we cannot find any evidence for something catastrophic or huge, then its basically proving it false. If I say there is a dinosaur under my bed and you look and see nothing, you have proven it false.

But regarding some details which would be harder to find, I agree.

Also, unlike myths and legends, the prophecies that come out of the Old Testament are incredible.

Myths and legends are not a "bad" genre, "wrong" genre or "inferior genre". For some reason, many Christians think its some kind of an inappropriate genre, but its not. Its a common genre of the bronze age era, in which the most of the Old Testament was written.

Perhaps you're already of the whole Cyrus controversy? I find it stunning. I'm not sure where you come down on the actual question of "when" the OT was written, but I go with a traditional view. To me, fulfilled prophecy moves the idea of myth and saga off the table.

Sure, some people think the name Cyrus was in the text before Cyrus, some think it was added later, to identify Cyrus with the prophecy. We have no way to know today.

But it goes on, because I think that when people relegate the Bible to myths and legends, it seems to me that you're saying that it's a construct of man and not God.

Why are you against myths, but not against for example songs, proverbs or romantic-erotic literature in the Bible? What leads you to the position that myths specifically are "bad" or unworthy of being in the Bible?

Is this what you're saying? If so, how is God to be found in stories written by men? (But I guess that we'd be going off topic, if we discussed that... maybe we already are, haha).

Everything in the Bible was written by men, in their language, mindset, culture and environment. Some of it was even oral tradition before being written down. Things were also copied (with errors), composed, re-composed, edited, translated, canonized etc.

Inspiration means that there is God's spirit in it. Or, if you wish, God's breath. That makes them useful for moral and godly life.

The level of inspiration can also differ from place to place. One can argue that if even whole books or chapters were not in the Bible, nothing would change, because they are mainly Hebrew literature.
On the other hand, there are some key books, verses, points or prophecies that are important for shaping Christianity and theology.