Was Noah's flood global?

[Ted-01]

What myths or sagas did you read or are familiar with? What differences do you see between the details/places in them and in Noah's flood story?

Great question!
I tend to like Celtic myths, perhaps I should say myths and legends of the British Isles(?), lol. Anything of King Arthur and knights, but also stuff about faeries (&little people), gods and goddesses, and heroes like Fionn mac Cumhaill and Cú Chulainn. (though, since the Celtic languages are impossible me to pronounce, it's sometime been difficult for me to wade through them). I've also enjoyed Nordic myths and legends.

The main differences that I see been things like that and the Noahic story is that - the way that I understand the myth vs legend vs saga and yes, even folk tales/fairy tales - is that they all are highly fictional. Legend and sagas less so than the others, but as you said in a previous post, they would be highly exaggerated. All of them are inevitably designed to give the reader/hearer some hidden, valuable, lesson... mostly "life lessons".
While the Bible may seem like legend and indeed a saga in and of itself, I see little exaggeration, much less fiction.

It depends on the context. If we cannot find any evidence for something catastrophic or huge, then its basically proving it false. If I say there is a dinosaur under my bed and you look and see nothing, you have proven it false.

I like that way of thinking... but it made think of that joke about shooting an elephant in my pajamas, for some reason, haha.
The thing is, and I'm assuming that you're alluding in part, to traditional archeological and geological positions on the "global flood", there are many people of those branches of science that somewhat disagree with traditional thought. Not just Christian types that beat that particular drum, but other "non-Christians" that aren't even discussing thing Biblical. I will say, just for the record, that I do like folks doing scientific work for the sake of helping to validate the Bible, but that's not my sole point.

Sure, some people think the name Cyrus was in the text before Cyrus, some think it was added later, to identify Cyrus with the prophecy. We have no way to know today.

Interesting that you, essentially, say that the most verifiable, accurate book of antiquity (from the literary perspective), isn't "good enough" for some folks.

Why are you against myths, but not against for example songs, proverbs or romantic-erotic literature in the Bible? What leads you to the position that myths specifically are "bad" or unworthy of being in the Bible?

Just to be clear, I'm not against those forms of literature, anywhere, to include the Bible.
As I stated above, I believe that myths, legends, sagas and folk tales are highly fictitious... especially myths and folk tales, whereas legends/sagas almost always have some historic component... just exaggerated. But they're meant to be understood that way going into the reading/telling.
In the Bible however, parables are fictitious, but we are usually told that plainly. (The thing with Lazurus and the rich man still has everyone hung up, lol). But I fully agree that Psalms are songs and full of metaphor and simile, and even perhaps hyperbole(?). Proverbs is philosophic but I see no fiction in it, the same with Ecclesiastes. The Song of Solomon is clearly poetic and chock full of metaphor.

I merely believe that the Bible is about presenting a definite message, which in part is an historical account of God's relationship with mankind. Introducing myth, etc., into it as a major component, changes the very nature of it. To me, the Bible is a book of good ideas to live by... it's a factual account of how God dealt with mankind, and still deals with mankind, at a very basic level. It's both comprehensive and consistent. To think of it as full of myth and legend will cause one to see it as some philosophic treatise on how to live a good life(?), IDK.

Everything in the Bible was written by men, in their language, mindset, culture and environment. Some of it was even oral tradition before being written down. Things were also copied (with errors), composed, re-composed, edited, translated, canonized etc.

Inspiration means that there is God's spirit in it. Or, if you wish, God's breath. That makes them useful for moral and godly life.

The level of inspiration can also differ from place to place. One can argue that if even whole books or chapters were not in the Bible, nothing would change, because they are mainly Hebrew literature.
On the other hand, there are some key books, verses, points or prophecies that are important for shaping Christianity and theology.

While you say written by men, I would say penned by men. Using their language? Sure... but I also see the development of language, particularly the proto/paleo-Semitic alphabet as oddly coincidental to the time of Abraham/Issac/Joeseph. Their mindset, culture and environment? Okay, But, according to the Bible, wasn't God there at the beginning, instructing, guiding, and even interacting with the environment? Oral histories have been verified by modern researchers, (linguists/anthropologists, etc.) to be astonishingly consistent throughout many generations... I don't disparage that. As I alluded to before, the Bible - both NT and OT - have been shown to be much more consistent between copies than any other literature of antiquity. While I don't have a source at the moment, I understand the Bible to have less that 10% (maybe, like 5%?) error whereas other writings usually have about 40% error... including the great names like Homer, Plato, Herodotus, Strabo, etc., etc. If I think that the writing itself was divinely inspired, wouldn't I also tend to believe that what all is included in the book just as inspired?

There's much more to the Bible than a how-to book on how to liv a Godly life, it's about regaining peace with God because we stand at enmity with Him without Jesus Christ's intervention directly on our personal behalf. That's only done when we enter into a personal relationship with Him. The accuracy of the Bible is vital to knowing God (that's knowing in an experiential way as opposed to an intellectual way) ... that cannot be done with fiction.

 

[trophy33]

The accuracy of the Bible is vital to knowing God (that's knowing in an experiential way as opposed to an intellectual way)

Geological, cosmological, biological, anatomical, botanical, astronomical, mathematical, genealogical and in most cases even historical accuracy of the Bible is not vital to knowing God in any way.

Even many biblical figures were described to know God without having any Bible, so this view is self-denying.

... that cannot be done with fiction.

Biblical myths are not the same thing we would call just fiction today. Today's use of the word fiction is for the entertainment purposes like in movies or in books. However, ancient myths served a different purpose.

If it can be done with poems, proverbs, songs or love stories, it can be also done with legends, sagas, dramatical narratives. Its all about presenting some point or some meaning.

 

[trophy33]

Great question!
I tend to like Celtic myths, perhaps I should say myths and legends of the British Isles(?), lol. Anything of King Arthur and knights, but also stuff about faeries (&little people), gods and goddesses, and heroes like Fionn mac Cumhaill and Cú Chulainn. (though, since the Celtic languages are impossible me to pronounce, it's sometime been difficult for me to wade through them). I've also enjoyed Nordic myths and legends.

You would need to compare the biblical myths to other Mesopotamian myths, so that you compare apples to apples.

 

[Diamond72]

You would need to compare the biblical myths

There are many names to the symbolism in the Bible. Myths is not one of them. Usually they say shadows and types. There is a best selling author that likes to use the word paradises. There are words like parables and homilies used. The Bible is very exact and very precise. Just like all of the universe is very fine tuned. We see this in the butterfly effect. It is not even an error to round off numbers but the impact can be huge. I think Greek Mythology has it's place but we should not confuse that with the Bible. Myth will focus on man not God. The Bible puts our focus on God not man.

 

[trophy33]

I think Greek Mythology has it's place but we should not confuse that with the Bible. Myth will focus on man not God. The Bible puts our focus on God not man.

The Old Testament does not contain the Greek mythology. Its from Mesopotamia, not from Greece.

 

[Diamond72]

The Old Testament does not contain the Greek mythology. Its from Mesopotamia, not from Greece.

You are going to make me spell it all out for you. The Bible contains allegories, metaphors, archetypes, homiletics, symbolism, paradigms, parables. To name a few. They give deeper meaning to the literal text. The Bible does not contain myths or fairly tales.

According to AI

The Bible is rich with various literary devices and forms of expression. Here are some additional ones you might find interesting:

1. Hyperbole: Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally. For example, “It’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
2. Irony: A contrast between what is expected and what actually happens. For instance, in the story of Job, Job’s friends try to comfort him but end up making things worse.
3. Anthropomorphism: Attributing human characteristics to non-human entities. In the Bible, God is often depicted using anthropomorphic language (e.g., “the eyes of the Lord,” “the hand of God”).
4. Chiasmus: A rhetorical device where words or phrases are repeated in reverse order. An example is found in Matthew 19:30: “But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”
5. Euphemism: Substituting a mild or less direct word for a harsh or blunt one. For instance, “passed away” instead of “died.”
6. Epistolary Form: Letters written within the Bible, such as Paul’s letters to various churches (e.g., Romans, Corinthians).
7. Apocalyptic Literature: Found in books like Daniel and Revelation, this genre uses vivid imagery and symbolism to convey messages about the end times.
8. Wisdom Literature: Books like Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Job contain practical advice, reflections on life, and philosophical musings.
9. Genealogies: Lists of ancestors, often found in the Old Testament, tracing lineage from one generation to another.
10. Parallelism: Repetition of similar grammatical structures or ideas for emphasis. Psalms frequently use parallelism (e.g., “The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want”).

Remember that these literary devices contribute to the depth and beauty of the biblical text, inviting readers to explore its layers of meaning.

 

[trophy33]

The Bible does not contain myths or fairly tales.

I agree that Bible does not contain fairy tales. Fairy tales are stories for children and Bible is not written for children.

Mythological elements in the Bible include the both creation stories, the flood story, references to God's fight with mythological monsters Rahab and Leviathan etc.

No Greek myths, though.

 

[Diamond72]

The Old Testament does not contain the Greek mythology.

1. “Mighty Men of Old”:
   • This phrase refers to heroic figures or warriors who lived in ancient times. They were renowned for their strength, courage, and valor. In the context of the Bible, these mighty men are often associated with great deeds and feats of bravery.
2. This could include the “The Nephilim”, but that is open for debate.

The Bible - for example the story of Samson is different from the Greek myth of Hercules. Although we read about Achilles heal. A central character in Homer's Iliad. Homer was required reading when I was in school. Even today we can not resolve the debate if Helen of Troy was kidnapped as her husband claimed. Or if she ran off with her boyfriend. They have found the city of Troy but no sign of the wooden horse we read about. So we do know the city itself was real.

We do not know for sure what is fact or fiction in Homers books. It is clear that the Bible is 100% truth with no error. Josephus was a prime example of historians that were paid money to embellish the truth to make the rich and famous look good. Josephus is considered to be fact and Homer is considered to be fiction. But there may not be that much difference between them. We do read in Genesis 3:15 “he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel”? Of course Moses had been around a long time before Homer. So Greek mythology was written later than the Bible and as you say not in the Bible. But we may find parts of the Bible in the Greek Mythology. According to Homer, Troy faced destruction during the epic Trojan War! Clearly Homer was being paid by Helens husband to embellish the story to make him look good.

 

[trophy33]

1. “Mighty Men of Old”:
   • This phrase refers to heroic figures or warriors who lived in ancient times. They were renowned for their strength, courage, and valor. In the context of the Bible, these mighty men are often associated with great deeds and feats of bravery.
2. This could include the “The Nephilim”, but that is open for debate.

The Bible - for example the story of Samson is different from the Greek myth of Hercules. Although we read about Achilles heal. A central character in Homer's Iliad. Homer was required reading when I was in school. Even today we can not resolve the debate if Helen of Troy was kidnapped as her husband claimed. Or if she ran off with her boyfriend. They have found the city of Troy but no sign of the wooden horse we read about. So we do know the city itself was real. It is a log way from the water now.

We do not know for sure what is fact or fiction in Homers books. It is clear that the Bible is 100% truth with no error. Josephus was a prime example of historians that were paid money to embellish the truth to make the rich and famous look good. Josephus is considered to be fact and Homer is considered to be fiction. But there may not be that much difference between them. We do read in Genesis 3:15 “he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel”? Of course Moses had been around a long time before Homer. So Greek mythology was written later than the Bible and as you say not in the Bible. But we may find parts of the Bible in the Greek Mythology. According to Homer, Troy faced destruction during the epic Trojan War! Clearly Homer was being paid by Helens husband to embellish the story to make him look good.

This seems like eisegesis to me. You may find some heroes or half-gods or dragons in Chinese mythology for example, it does not mean that they are related to the biblical stories.

Biblical stories are related to Mesopotamian culture.

 

[The Barbarian]

Geological, cosmological, biological, anatomical, botanical, astronomical, mathematical, genealogical and in most cases even historical accuracy of the Bible is not vital to knowing God in any way.

Even many biblical figures were described to know God without having any Bible, so this view is self-denying.

Today's winner.

 

[Diamond72]

Chinese mythology

We do not study Chinese mythology in school like we do Greek mythology. My son is one third northern china or Mongolian. I would think there are more stories around the emperor in Beijing at the forbidden city. Compared to Genghis Khan. People in China like to trace their ancestor back to Genghis or the emperor. One or the other or even both. Like we trace our ancestors back to the Pilgrims. Actually I even attended a Pilgrim church and were involved with them for over 50 years.

 

[trophy33]

We do not study Chinese mythology in school like we do Greek mythology. My son is one third northern china or Mongolian. I would think there are more stories around the emperor in Beijing at the forbidden city. Compared to Genghis Khan. People in China like to trace their ancestor back to Genghis or the emperor. One or the other or even both. Like we trace our ancestors back to the Pilgrims. Actually I even attended a Pilgrim church and were involved with them for over 50 years.

Well, these are... quite random pieces of information.

 

[Diamond72]

Well, these are... quite random pieces of information.

My wife worked in Hong Kong for 9 years but that was when they were under British control.

 

[Ted-01]

Geological, cosmological, biological, anatomical, botanical, astronomical, mathematical, genealogical and in most cases even historical accuracy of the Bible is not vital to knowing God in any way.

I believe that all the things that you listed were created by God.
Not that I want even remotely compare myself with God, I have been an artist, my father was an artist, I had artists for neighbors, good, acquaintances, and went to school with many artists. You can definitely tell something of the artist by what they create. A creator of art will often pour much of themselves into a piece of work. It's not uncommon that we even intend our work to show our soul, so to speak.
God is much more than a human artist, but I think many would agree that they/we can see a bit of God in His handiwork.

Scripture says this too.
Romans 1:18-21(ESV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

It gets worse from there, but I'm sure you're familiar with it.

Biblical myths are not the same thing we would call just fiction today. Today's use of the word fiction is for the entertainment purposes like in movies or in books. However, ancient myths served a different purpose.

If it can be done with poems, proverbs, songs or love stories, it can be also done with legends, sagas, dramatical narratives. Its all about presenting some point or some meaning.

Forgive me for saying this, but I think that you're better than this - I hope so at least.

The word fiction is indeed often used to speak of literature, and other creative works, but I fear that perhaps this talk is getting emotionally laden?
Fiction also is very commonly used, in modern English, (and has been for centuries), in referring to:

1. untruth
2. invented by imagination
3. illusion
4. pretense

etc., etc.
A myth is a myth, regardless of location... the type of book that it's contained in doesn't change anything, does it? Also, I'm sure that you're aware that in modern colloquial, parlance... the word myth is often used to simply mean: a commonly held but false belief or idea. (I'd credit a particular dictionary, but you'll find that definition/usage in just about all/any.)

The purpose of fiction maybe about whatever the creator wants to be... presenting a work of fiction as something other would be a deception, regardless of the point or meaning IMHO.
As I stated earlier, whenever Jesus presented parables, He told us so. We don't have that as an introduction to the story of Noah and the flood. Genesis and the rest of the ancient books of the OT were handed down over millennia and always presented as factual writings. By and large, that's the way that the books were accepted.
It's only in the last two centuries or so, that people have been trying to break that traditional view. It's a radical view, INHO. If you're part of that group, okay...

I am not.

 

[Ted-01]

You would need to compare the biblical myths to other Mesopotamian myths, so that you compare apples to apples.

Perhaps... not much Celtic influence in the Bible as I read it.
But I would caution against typifying the people or the writing style of ancient Mesopotamia using just the myths that some produced.

 

[Diamond72]

You can definitely tell something of the artist by what they create.

I am more of a craftsman, but when I do my rock art it takes a lot of time. People can polish a rock in a week but it takes natue a lot longer.

 

[Ted-01]

I am more of a craftsman, but when I do my rock art it takes a lot of time. People can polish a rock in a week but it takes natue a lot longer.
View attachment 348679

I think that I see a bit of you in that!
You seem to be a colorful person that's solid in your beliefs.

 

[Diamond72]

You seem to be a colorful person that's solid in your beliefs.

I believe in God, don't know if I believe in myself very much. He is more than able to rescue, save, heal and deliver us from destruction.

 

[Diamond72]

ancient Mesopotamia

Most of what we know comes from archeology.

The Fertile Crescent, explained

Learn about this region in ancient Mesopotamia, bounded by the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in Western Asia, which gave rise to some of the world’s earliest civilizations.

news.uchicago.edu

 

[trophy33]

I believe that all the things that you listed were created by God.

Bible is not inspired or inerrant about them. For example:

- there is no firmament and stars, the sun and the moon are not in it
- our thinking and emotions do not take place in kidneys
- it was not the whole world that was being registered during the reign of Augustus
- there is no mountain one can see the whole world/all kingdoms from
- the mustard seed is not the smallest of all seeds on earth
- there is no literal Leviathan in the seas who wants to swallow the sun and so bring chaos; and God did not kill him with a literal sword
- falling stars are not actually stars, but meteorites

Etc. And it changes nothing regarding Christian theology.

Forgive me for saying this, but I think that you're better than this - I hope so at least.

The word fiction is indeed often used to speak of literature, and other creative works, but I fear that perhaps this talk is getting emotionally laden?
Fiction also is very commonly used, in modern English, (and has been for centuries), in referring to:

1. untruth
2. invented by imagination
3. illusion
4. pretense

etc., etc.
A myth is a myth, regardless of location... the type of book that it's contained in doesn't change anything, does it? Also, I'm sure that you're aware that in modern colloquial, parlance... the word myth is often used to simply mean: a commonly held but false belief or idea. (I'd credit a particular dictionary, but you'll find that definition/usage in just about all/any.)

The purpose of fiction maybe about whatever the creator wants to be... presenting a work of fiction as something other would be a deception, regardless of the point or meaning IMHO.
As I stated earlier, whenever Jesus presented parables, He told us so. We don't have that as an introduction to the story of Noah and the flood. Genesis and the rest of the ancient books of the OT were handed down over millennia and always presented as factual writings. By and large, that's the way that the books were accepted.
It's only in the last two centuries or so, that people have been trying to break that traditional view. It's a radical view, INHO. If you're part of that group, okay...

I am not.

The modern usage of the word fiction is not what the ancient myths meant. Ancient myths are neither fairy tales, nor entertainment fictions. Its best to simply stop throwing in loosely associated terms that may be confusing to readers.