Was Judas Iscariot saved?

[Miss Shelby]

This is obvious. Read Romans 6-8. If are future sins are not forgiven they we are not saved by grace, but have to earn our salvation. The bible warns against sinning, not that sinning makes one lose thier salvation.

I disagree. The context of the entire New Testament is written in the present tense. Saving faith must remain in the present tense. Future sins are not automatically forgiven, that is presuming upon the grace of God.

As for Judas Iscariot, I believe that the state of his soul was in one time good standing with God, but it is evident that there came a time when he allowed himself to be slave to his own selfish desires, thus putting his own soul in peril. Which, in my opinion, completely demolishes the idea of Once saved, always saved.

I don't know if he ended up in hell or heaven, it would depend on whether his heart was repentant, only something that God knows.

Michelle

 

[He put me back together]

Here is what we know about Judas:

• He had a part in Christ's ministry 7

• He was an apostle 7

• He had power over unclean spirits 1

• He had the power to heal 2

• He had the power to cast out demons 2

• He became a traitor 3

• He was a devil 4

• It was not until right before the last supper that he became possessed by Satan 5

• He had a share in the ministry 6

• He turned aside his ministry and apostleship 7

He was at one time not a traitor, but an apostle and sharer of the ministry with power over demons and the ability to heal. Then he became a traitor and a devil and was possessed by Satan. In the end he turned aside his share in the ministry and apostleship.


Given that I would say that at the start he was a follower of God, but in the end he turned aside and went to Hell.


1 Mat 10:1 Then having summoned His twelve disciples, He gave to them power over unclean [or, defiling] spirits so as to be casting them out and to be healing every disease and every malady.
2 Mar 3:15 and to be having power [or, authority] to be healing the diseases and to be casting out the demons.
3 Luk 6:16 Judas [the son; or, the brother] of James, and Judas Iscariot, who also became a traitor.
4 Joh 6:70 {Jesus} answered them, "_I_ chose you*, the twelve, did I not? And one of you* is a devil!"
5 Luk 22:3 Then Satan entered into Judas, the one being surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
6 Act 1:17 because he had been numbered with us and obtained [or, was chosen to have] the share in this ministry."
7 Act 1:25 to receive the share of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."

Well, brother,

John 12:6
He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

Satan didn't enter Judas until the last supper, but it's not ridiculous to say that he was never "good" ("good" being a bit of a loose term here), or that he became "bad" before the last supper.

 

[He put me back together]

ok I don't mean to sound selfish, but could someone take a break from the OSAS debate and refute post #31? hehehe

 

[angeljan]

But that is what it is about if Judas was saved. that has something to do with his salvation and the theory behind OSAS. I call it theory and not doctrine.

You cannot assume Judas Fate, as well as we cannot assume that some of us have already been saved or judged by GOd. Judas track record shows he was an elected apostle choosen by God he had faith and believed. At this point he was as you call it saved. so I guess it goes to show that with the OSAS is false since they believe once someones is saved they cannot become unsaved.

Besides I thought sin does not seperate one from God.

So how then was Judas seperated from God, He believed and followed Christ, he made one mistake and had so much sorrow he repented and then committed suicide.

I dont think judas is in Hell , I feel he is or was in purgatory .


Angel

 

[rnmomof7]

I've heard from someone that the bible lends to the possibilty that Judas Iscariot might have been saved as he was going to hang himself. Has anyone heard about this? I suppose, here too, only God knows.

Jesus called him the son of perdition ...so it is unlikely he is a son of God


John 17:12: “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou has given Me; and I guarded them, and no one of them perished except the son of perdition, that the Scriptures might be fulfilled.”


The word “perdition” means “eternal death”.

Acts 1:20, Peter quotes Psalm 69 and Psalm 100 which directly predicts Judas’ demise and destiny.

Acts 1:25, Peter, referring to Judas, says, “Judas turned aside to go to his own place."

 

[R.E.Taet]

Satan didn't enter Judas until the last supper, but it's not ridiculous to say that he was never "good" ("good" being a bit of a loose term here), or that he became "bad" before the last supper.

Even to this day thieves have a part in Christ's ministry. Theft is not an unpardonable sin. It does not disqualify Judas from salvation.

Luke 6:16 ...Judas Iscariot, who also became a traitor.

 

[He put me back together]

Even to this day thieves have a part in Christ's ministry. Theft is not an unpardonable sin. It does not disqualify Judas from salvation.

Luke 6:16 ...Judas Iscariot, who also became a traitor.

no, certainly not--but it does, however, dispute the claim that Judas could be considered the same as the other 11. While the other 11 were flawed, carnally minded guys (oh, we're sooooo different than they) who had the redeeming quality of being after Jesus' heart, John presents an argument (but not proof) that Judas was different than this. Notice that I said "It's not RIIIIDIIIIICULOUSSS" to make this claim. I didn't say that it was set in stone. John 12 does not drive the nail that Judas was a "bad fellow" from the beginning, but Matthew 26 presents a conclusive argument that we won't see him in the Kingdom.

 

[He put me back together]

oh, by the way, I never said anything about his salvation concerning John 12, only that there was evidence there that he wasn't after Christ's heart at that time. Let's not confuse certain components here and there with others.

 

[theseed]

Truthquest,

Truth quest is not in this forum?

You are debating if Judas was Saved, which has everything to do with OSAS theory .

I posted this thread, and I'm not looking to debate at all. And yes it could if he was ever saved to begin with.

you dont want to hear the answers or the truth in regard to ones faith and salvation

When is your opinion have the corner on truth? And if you are really talking to me, then no you have it all wrong. I don't want to debate in which is where you have gone with this. I just stated I disgreeed and said 3 times I don't want to debate OSAS here. I don't mind it in another forum.

Truthquest by the way there is only !0 commandments to follow not 613 as you have suggested above

Angel you just exposed your lack of knowledge which means you don't have the corner on truth. To think there are only 10 commandments to follow in the Law is laughable. Ask he Messiac Jew in the Messianic Jew forum or any devout Jew and they will tell you there are more than 10. There are 613, commandments in the Law. Since It's become apparent you mean me now, and called me truthquest,you are capable of mistakes and therefore don't have a corner on truth.

You are the one who said you dont believe in the whole bible and could someone help you.

I never, ever, ever said this. This is higly inflammatory, and misquoting someone is against forum rules.

For someone who dont believe in the whole word of God, they should not be interpreting Salvation and what is required,, or the OSAS theory.

AngelJan your borderlining on being reported. I ask that you apologize if you really intended to say I don't believe the bible. This is downright slander and libel.

The idea or theme of the Bible is to follow the Basic rules .

Faith, Commandments, Heaven and Hell.
This is what christianity is based upon and has followed for thousands of years.

If you apply just the basics of scripture then the rest follow.
disputing what one verse claims and the other rejects, etc,. etc. is not going to reduce the main message to Protestants and catholics who OBEY and follow the word.

Again its one thing to hear the word of God , it is another to DO the word o

This is aslo highly inflammatory. Who are you to tell me that I don't do the word? Are you saying that I'm not a Christian. I believe you are, or at least truthquest. I'm in grad. school and I can compently read the bible for myself and not that it also talks about grace. And I know what grace means. Therefore, I know that you are narrowminded in thinking that are the only one who has a solid theological basis for salvation.

Ask again that you apologize for you inflamorty remarks, early you said I distorted the bible, and you misquoted me. And accused me of not following the bible, and if I don't do that, then I'm not a Christian. Jesus is the word of God and I follow him.

 

[theseed]

Nevermind

 

[theseed]

Jesus called him the son of perdition ...so it is unlikely he is a son of God


John 17:12: “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou has given Me; and I guarded them, and no one of them perished except the son of perdition, that the Scriptures might be fulfilled.”


The word “perdition” means “eternal death”.

Acts 1:20, Peter quotes Psalm 69 and Psalm 100 which directly predicts Judas’ demise and destiny.

Acts 1:25, Peter, referring to Judas, says, “Judas turned aside to go to his own place."

Thanks this is helpfu.

 

[theseed]

With your response's to this debate , they should go under Carnal Christianity.

Look at the pot calling the kettle black!

Since you also do not apply all of Gods words to your interpretations.

I find this inflammatory and offensive.

Faith, Commandments, Heaven and Hell.
This is what christianity is based upon and has followed for thousands of years

Faith? What happened to grace? And Jesus?

[QUOTE-=AngelJan] disputing what one verse claims and the other rejects, etc,. etc. is not going to reduce the main message to Protestants and catholics who OBEY and follow the word or the basic rules of christianity.
[/QUOTE]

Christianity is not about rules at all, it's about a relationship with Christ.

Its one thing to hear the word and another to at least try to obey it and teach others to do so.

Matthew 7
5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Again, the pot calling the kettle black.





Anglel Jan, if you know all the scriptures, then how did you miss the part about controling your tounge?

James 3


Taming the Tongue

1Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.
3When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. 4Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. 5Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.
7All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, 8but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
9With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. 10Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. 11Can both fresh water and salt[1] water flow from the same spring? 12My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

Did you miss the part about getting along and keeping the peace?

Ephesians 4


Unity in the Body of Christ

1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

You've made me so upset with taking my words and twisting them around, by saying that I don't follow the word, your saying I'm not a Christian. period.
Are you trying to be offensive? Is this how you think Christians should act? You have so tried my patience. I have refrained replying inflammatory stuff, although I've come close. But I now that Jesus calls me to something more than that.

35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Do you want to make me an enemy? Are you tryng to be offensive?

 

[kimber1]

*MOD HAT ON
this thread is dangerously close to getting closed down. we WILL NOT question anyone's salvation for NONE of us knows the others heart now do we? we will NOT, no matter how subtley accuse someone of not knowing God or not being Christian as, again, we do NOT know others hearts. either get this thread back on topic of which it was intended or it will be closed. simple as that. the name calling and arrogant insinuations stops NOW. have i made myself clear? thank you, now continue.
*MOD HAT OFF

 

[He put me back together]

:::timidly walks in::: wow...ok, let me see if I can help defer this into a more peacable place.

Judas' salvation does not depend on whether or not OSAS is true. He does not help or hinder the OSAS argument in any way, neither is the OSAS argument significant in this discussion.

What IS significant, is whether or not Matthew 26 means that Judas will see the 2nd death--whether or not Jesus seriously meant that it would be better for Judas if he was never born. If it does not, the sign that Judas was repentant ("I have sinned, for I have betrayed innocent blood.") is a significant sign that we may see him in the Kingdom.

While Luke's story is rather vague of when Judas killed himself, Matthew seems to suggest (but not conclusively prove) that Judas hung himself immediately after returning the silver, thus before the crucifiction itself. In any event, it is quite definite that he died before the day of Pentecost. If Jesus preached to those who lived in the day of Noah while he was in the grave, it's not one bit unreasonable to claim that he could have preached to Judas.

So, the CERTAINTY of Judas lacking in the Kingdom depends on whether or not Jesus actually meant that Judas would be better off not being born, and not OSAS. If Jesus did not mean such a thing in Matt 26, then we simply do not know. Frankly, it's not something to be up in arms about.

 

[theseed]

Judas' salvation does not depend on whether or not OSAS is true. He does not help or hinder the OSAS argument in any way, neither is the OSAS argument significant in this discussion.

I agree, one as to wonder if he ever believed and why he stopped. The movies make it out to seem like he had doubts and though it was the right thing to turn Jesus in.

What IS significant, is whether or not Matthew 26 means that Judas will see the 2nd death--whether or not Jesus seriously meant that it would be better for Judas if he was never born. If it does not, the sign that Judas was repentant ("I have sinned, for I have betrayed innocent blood.") is a significant sign that we may see him in the Kingdom

I remember this now.

So, the CERTAINTY of Judas lacking in the Kingdom depends on whether or not Jesus actually meant that Judas would be better off not being born, and not OSAS. If Jesus did not mean such a thing in Matt 26, then we simply do not know. Frankly, it's not something to be up in arms about.

Yeah, I wonder if he realized he could have been forgiven. He hung himself before Jesus rose again. So I think he never realized Jesus was the Messiah and what all that entailed. By hanging himself on a tree, signified that he considered himself accursed of God does it not? And what about OT Law still in effect?

Frankly, it's not something to be up in arms about.

I agree, I partly take responsibility for things getting out of hand. I wish I would have handled it better. Hindsight is always 20/20 (sometimes 20/15).

 

[kimber1]

it's all good now folks

 

[theseed]

Most christians protestant along with catholics believe in Faith, and commandment keeping.

Again there are 613 Laws in the OT, and no one can no longer keep all of them because there of the requirments for perfect sacrifices.

All the Law hangs on 2 commandments: Love God and love others. And I've seen many members who believe in grace too.

Like I said there are so many different sects and new age philosophies, it would be impossible to for most on here to understand and interpret most mainstream christian beliefs. '

Impossible? What about the Nicene Creed? Are you more intelligen than most of the people are here? More spritual? I would not claim that and I'm in grad. school and I've read the bible (all of it) and the NT more than 2. And I've read the Gospels several times. As the Pope as said, it is possible to understand scriptures and not have a relationship with Christ. That is what Christianity is about. The Church is his bride, the body of Christ is the temple and each believer is the temple also.

 

[theseed]

Who could claim they have been judged.!

There is no condemation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8?; John 3).

 

[rnmomof7]

Well, brother,

John 12:6
He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

Satan didn't enter Judas until the last supper, but it's not ridiculous to say that he was never "good" ("good" being a bit of a loose term here), or that he became "bad" before the last supper.

Jesus said there was no one "good" but God :>)

Judas was known as the traitor from the beginning of the ministry of Jesus.
Jesus said that he was one that He would "loose"

The fact that Judas had any part in the ministry of Jesus does not point to his character or spiritual condition .

Remember this exchange?

**
*
Luk 9:49**
And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

Luk 9:50**
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.

It was the name of Jesus not the works or character of the apostles that brought the miracles.

. Judas did NOT repent to God for his sin, but only repented to himself only. (Matthew 27:3, KJV)

2 Corinthians 6:10 “For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; but the sorrow of the world produces death.”

What we see is a man that was sorry for the consequences of his act and how they would affect him.

If Judas had truly repented to God , he would have had no regret or remorse. Salvation is a gift of a clear conscience

Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

But Judas DID have regret and he only felt bad to himself, not to God. If he had really gotten “saved” at that moment, he should have been joyful; but what did he do?

He committed suicide. He chose death, since all he had after betraying Jesus was the sinful conviction of an unbeliever. He was filled with the “sorrow of the world”

True repentance is a gift of God. Think about Essau

Hbr 12:17**
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected:for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

 

[HeatherJay]

Well, I've learned quite a bit that I didn't know about Judas from a few of you...thank you

I would agree that it's impossible to know the state of his soul. But even in the OT, we begin to see the mercy of God when He tells David that even if Solomon messes up, that He (God) will punish him (Solomon), but He'll show him mercy...He would not abandon him (unlike He did with Saul).

I sort of feel sorry for Judas. Like theseed said, somebody HAD to betray Jesus. I guess I find myself hoping that God showed Judas mercy and forgave him.

Love, Heather