Was it the translators?

[ralliann]

As long as there is an unbroken maternal line, the children are Jewish.

So, a long history of Jews which became Christians anywhere along the line could become dicey. Since a woman who was a Jewish Christian, would be more likely to marry a Gentile or her daughters would, etc (somewhere along the line). Or if She had no daughters her sons being raised Christian, would more than likely not marry a Jewess.

 

[Open Heart]

My kids' father is Jewish but I am not. So they are not Jewish. To me it seems annoying, but you always know who the mother is. If I were Jewish and the father not, they would be Jewish.

I don't know what would happen if a child of a Cohen was born to a Gentile mother. If the child converted to Judaism, would he then be considered a Cohen?

No. In fact, even if you converted, he would not be a Cohen becau

So, a long history of Jews which became Christians anywhere along the line could become dicey. Since a woman who was a Jewish Christian, would be more likely to marry a Gentile or her daughters would, etc (somewhere along the line). Or if She had no daughters her sons being raised Christian, would more than likely not marry a Jewess.

This is what happened to me. I have a Jewish line through my mother's side, but they became Christian, and one was a gentile, though married to a Jew. This happens in Crypto-Jewish lines. I felt Jewish because I was raised following Torah. I had believed I was a Jew, because of the ancestry. Imagine my shock when I found out I wasn't! It's why I needed to straighten out my Jewish Identity with a halakhic conversion as an adult, to bring my heart and head into line with reality.

 

[ralliann]

I have seen many interesting things. One family in the Messianic congregation we used to go to claimed ancestry to the British royal family and to King Solomon. I did not bother to ask how this was revealed to them. There are great truly Messianic Jewish families out there too, but they have parents and grandparents who are Jewish

Ok I'm confused. The first quote was me....But the second is not from me, but is attributed to me...LOL Is that you Christie

 

[Open Heart]

One family in the Messianic congregation we used to go to claimed ancestry to the British royal family and to King Solomon.

This sounds like British Israelism. If it is, it is a false doctrine. Anglo-saxons are not the lost tribes of Israel. It is Jew envy. What makes it extra awful is that at the same time it scorns actual Jews. Plain and simple, it is a form of Replacement Theology.

 

[Christie insb]

Ok I'm confused. The first quote was me....But the second is not from me, but is attributed to me...LOL Is that you Christie

I know. Oops. I thought I corrected it but maybe I didn't or maybe you saw it before I could correct it. Sorry.

 

[ralliann]

No. In fact, even if you converted, he would not be a Cohen becau


This is what happened to me. I have a Jewish line through my mother's side, but they became Christian, and one was a gentile, though married to a Jew. This happens in Crypto-Jewish lines. I felt Jewish because I was raised following Torah. I had believed I was a Jew, because of the ancestry. Imagine my shock when I found out I wasn't! It's why I needed to straighten out my Jewish Identity with a halakhic conversion as an adult, to bring my heart and head into line with reality.

This is unclear???
According to the conversation we have been having here
A Jewish line through your mothers side.
Your mother cannot be Jewish or you would be a Jew....Then you say
And one was a gentile, though married to a Jew. Who was a gentile? And who was the Jew??? This post is unclear for me.

 

[Christie insb]

This sounds like British Israelism. If it is, it is a false doctrine. Anglo-saxons are not the lost tribes of Israel. It is Jew envy. What makes it extra awful is that at the same time it scorns actual Jews. Plain and simple, it is a form of Replacement Theology.

I think it is. Lots of strange things come from Jew Envy.

 

[ChavaK]

So, a long history of Jews which became Christians anywhere along the line could become dicey. Since a woman who was a Jewish Christian, would be more likely to marry a Gentile or her daughters would, etc (somewhere along the line). Or if She had no daughters her sons being raised Christian, would more than likely not marry a Jewess.

Correct. I would say that the odds of a family still being halachaly Jewish after their ancestors converted out long ago is just about zilch. It's much more likely the immediate descendents of those who converted would be marrying non-Jews and thus the maternal line is broken.

 

[ralliann]

I know. Oops. I thought I corrected it but maybe I didn't or maybe you saw it before I could correct it. Sorry.

That's ok. I just wanted to know who said what is all. Actually I also wanted to make sure I wasn't bonkers LOL

 

[ralliann]

Correct. I would say that the odds of a family still being halachaly Jewish after their ancestors converted out long ago is just about zilch. It's much more likely the immediate descendents of those who converted would be marrying non-Jews and thus the maternal line is broken.

Yes, I can see your point. No wonder Judaism worries over intermarriage then.
But for me a Gentile, it just seems so odd. The thought of having Jewish cousins. WOW. I know it's not odd to you cuz you were raised knowing this, but to me it is something new to the mind. I do not mean odd in a negative way, I hope you know.

 

[ChavaK]

I think the problem is...in Messianic Judaism, some claim "Jewishness" for one distant relative at all, to call themselves Jewish.

That is why I always take claims from Messianics that they are Jews with a grain of salt. Of course it can happen, but they frequently use different criteria from Judaism as to who is a Jew. As you say, some may find a Jewish ancestor somewhere in their family tree and therefore conclude they are Jewish. I've seen on line one that claimed to be Jewish because they had a Polish ancestor, another who claimed to be Jewish because G-d told them they were, and others that stated once they accept the "Jewish Messiah" they are no longer pagan Gentiles but are now Jews.
It's strange because in years past no one would claim to be a Jew if they weren't. Now days everyone wants to be one.

 

[Open Heart]

This is unclear???
According to the conversation we have been having here
A Jewish line through your mothers side.
Your mother cannot be Jewish or you would be a Jew....Then you say
And one was a gentile, though married to a Jew. Who was a gentile? And who was the Jew??? This post is unclear for me.

I'm saying I was NOT a Jew, although I had thought I was. I was what they call a Crypto-Jew: someone of Jewish descent whose family continues to keep Jewish customs even though they may convert to Christianity. The most common Crypto-Jews are the descendants of those who were persecuted by the Inquisition and converted to Christianity by force.

Now in my case, intermarriage began to happen. At one point, a male ancestor married a non-Jew. Thus, I was not truly a Jew. Even though I had kept Jewish laws and traditions. Even though I identified with Israel. Even though I felt like a Jew. It did a number on my head. I solved the identity confusion by making a conversion to Judaism during a time in my life when I was not a Christian and I lived as a Rabbinic Jew for many years.

 

[CherubRam]

A Jew is a convert to Orthodox Judaism and the Hebrews are an ethnic group of people.


Contrary to popular belief, Jews are not a race, but an assembly of people. Hebrews are a race.


A Hebrew may or may not be a Jew.


The word "Jew" was a nickname assigned by the Babylonians to anyone who either lived in or came from the area of Judea.

 

[ralliann]

That is why I always take claims from Messianics that they are Jews with a grain of salt. Of course it can happen, but they frequently use different criteria from Judaism as to who is a Jew. As you say, some may find a Jewish ancestor somewhere in their family tree and therefore conclude they are Jewish. I've seen on line one that claimed to be Jewish because they had a Polish ancestor, another who claimed to be Jewish because G-d told them they were, and others that stated once they accept the "Jewish Messiah" they are no longer pagan Gentiles but are now Jews.
It's strange because in years past no one would claim to be a Jew if they weren't. Now days everyone wants to be one.

Well Chavak, I will tell you a little story. Being Gentile and Christian, I myself began to attend a Messianic shul years back (I do not know how to change my profile religion ID, I am still listed as Messianic). But any how,,,When I began going there I bought a star of David necklace to wear.
I went to the grocery store a few days later. There was a very popular event going on in my town that brought out of towners from all over the U.S. A woman comes up to me, saying "OH Good, can you tell me where the nearest temple or synagogue is?" Chavak, the look on her face when she realized I didn't have a clue. She almost looked horrified in her confusion. I felt horrible. I had no idea the impact of my wearing such a thing. I took it off gave it to another woman at my shul, who claimed to be Jewish. In fact I gave her all my Jewish stuff. Sometimes us Gentiles Do not mean any harm, but are ignorant. I will never ever forget the look on that woman's face. I felt horrible for days.
Oh, and the woman I gave all that stuff to, found out later she was not Jewish either. But she at least kept kosher etc.

 

[ralliann]

I'm saying I was NOT a Jew

Confusing.....
You say this above...
Then this below...

Now in my case, intermarriage began to happen. At one point, a male ancestor married a non-Jew. Thus, I was not truly a Jew.

Furthermore, this makes it appear (to me anyway, from what I have just learned here) That the Jewish ancestry was from a male, and not your mother????? None my business I quess, but it seems perhaps there is a little mixing of your personal criteria for being a Jew, and the official Jewish criteria. I understand a true and valid conversion makes anyone a Jew. But you seem to include an ancestry element that is confusing here with regard to your mothers line, then you say your fathers line. Oh well, none my biz.

 

[AbbaLove]

Out of curiosity, did he call himself a "Messianic Jew" *"Messianic Orthodox Jew" or simply an "Orthodox Jew" that happened to believe that Yeshua was the Messiach? It is my experience that the Jewish people that keep Orthodox custom tend to shy from associating with the "Messianic" term and rather keep their Orthodox identity while believing at the same time.

To me that's an *oxymoron.

"Messianic orthodox Jew" wouldn't be an oxymoron any more than "Messianic Judaism"​

Yes, tampasteve you are correct was referring to the Apostle Simon Peter as a tongue speaking P/pentecostal Hebrew. Perhaps charismatic Hebrew would also be appropriate when referring to the Hebrew-speaking Apostles and other Hebrew-speaking followers of Messiah Yeshua that were Gifted with one or more of the nine Supernatural Giftings of ‎Ruach HaKodesh as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:7-11

www.jimfeeney.org/Peter-Paul-MaryPentecostal.html
( is "Messianic Jewish Pentecostal Christian" an oxymoron )
​

FWIW, I doubt that the Apostles referred to themselves as a "Jew" as that was considered a derogatory slang word first used by the pagan Babylonians. Thanks primarily to the RCC the name "Jew" has been further perpetuated and ingrained into RT Christianity by 300-350 AD/CE to present-day. Apparently the word "Jew" is still incorporated into everyday English speech by English-speaking Israeli citizens. However, i suspect the word "Jew" is incorporated less-and-less by Hebrew-speaking Israeli citizens. When you are a distinct people without a country of your own for almost 1900 years you don't have a lot of say in what the world decides to call you.

Ingrained ... of a habit, belief, or attitude firmly fixed or established; difficult to change.
​

 

[Christie insb]

This is unclear???
According to the conversation we have been having here
A Jewish line through your mothers side.
Your mother cannot be Jewish or you would be a Jew....Then you say
And one was a gentile, though married to a Jew. Who was a gentile? And who was the Jew??? This post is unclear for me.

To add to the confusion: Hitler invited anyone to his concentration camps who had one Jewish grandparent of either gender. So when Israel was founded that was supposed to be the standard to make aliyah. My son was able to go on a trip to Israel with a group called Taglit/Birthright Israel because they use this standard. In actual practice you could probably immigrate if you were Jewish and your mother was Jewish but the ultra-orthodox control immigration and if my kid wanted to move to Israel my understanding is that only an Orthodox conversion will do.

 

[ralliann]

To add to the confusion: Hitler invited anyone to his concentration camps who had one Jewish grandparent of either gender. So when Israel was founded that was supposed to be the standard to make aliyah. My son was able to go on a trip to Israel with a group called Taglit/Birthright Israel because they use this standard. In actual practice you could probably immigrate if you were Jewish and your mother was Jewish but the ultra-orthodox control immigration and if my kid wanted to move to Israel my understanding is that only an Orthodox conversion will do.

Do they allow Christian Jews to make Aliyah?

 

[ChavaK]

if my kid wanted to move to Israel my understanding is that only an Orthodox conversion will do.

He can move to Israel if he has one Jewish grandparent. He would not be listed as being Jewish though. Reform or Conservative conversions allow one to move to Israel, but those converts would not be considered Jewish. Only Orthodox conversions are valid as far as being accepted as a Jew in Israel.

 

[Christie insb]

Do they allow Christian Jews to make Aliyah?

It seems not. My husband was looking into it, and they asked him some question that he felt he had to answer that he believes Jesus is the Messiah. I understand this has been in the courts but I haven't heard Messianic Jews are welcome.