Was it the translators?

ChavaK

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Messianic Orthodox Jew"
To me that's any oxymoron.

It is my experience that the Jewish people that keep Orthodox custom tend to shy from associating with the "Messianic" term and rather keep theirOrthodox identity while believing at the same time.
If they are associating with the traditional Jewish community, they should let their beliefs be known.
 
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tampasteve

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If they are associating with the traditional Jewish community, they should let their beliefs be known.

I think that is a tough thing for them to do...if they do, surely they would be ostracized from most Jewish establishments as most would consider them apostates. On the other hand, they were born Jewish (most of them) and wish to continue keeping Torah and observing as Orthodox Jewish people, just with believing Yeshua is the Messiach and will return to complete the prophesies. Not to minimize that aspect, but from the few I have met, they do not see it as secondary to their call to worship G-d as they have done and see Torah as calling them to; they do not see it as leaving their Jewish faith. This is the predicament for them....openly speak of their belief and likely have to leave the community, or worship as they always have, and wish to continue, and keep that aspect to themselves. And truly, why do they need to be open with that belief? It is not as if someone is at the door asking everyone "do you believe Jesus was the Messiah?"; this isn't a Baptist church ;)

This is obviously not a large group of people, but they wish to remain Jewish in all aspects other than this admittedly important difference, in their eyes, fulfillment of scripture. Right or wrong? I don't know....as I am not Jewish I do not have to make this possibly painful choice.
 
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ChavaK

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And truly, why do they need to be open with that belief?

Because it affects the community as a whole. What if they are young and single and looking for their beshert?
Synagogues may not allow them to join, to be buried, married, be given aliyahs, counted as minyon, etc.
People may choose not to eat in their home.
Etc Etc.
And maybe none of those things would come to pass....but it should be up to the community to decide. They should not be misled and perhaps break halacha because they were.
 
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tampasteve

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Because it affects the community as a whole. What if they are young and single and looking for their beshert?
Synagogues may not allow them to join, to be buried, married, be given aliyahs, counted as minyon, etc.
People may choose not to eat in their home.
Etc Etc.
And maybe none of those things would come to pass....but it should be up to the community to decide. They should not be misled and perhaps break halacha because they were.
Exactly....they are ostracized from their community....maybe they should be, but I only mean to point out how tough of a choice it is. But with the points you make, I think you are correct in the reasoning on why they should let their choice be known or find a community more open to their choice.
 
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pinacled

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and why not? The Gospels are full of "the Jews" in a negative context.
I never even thought that the Gospel writers spoke Ill of the feast of yehuda.
I heard them like a call.
Especially in being a firstborn male

Three times in the year, every one of your males shall appear before the Lord, your God, in the place He will choose: on the Festival of Matzoth and on the Festival of Weeks, and on the Festival of Sukkoth, and he shall not appear before the Lord empty-handed.
 
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pinacled

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I never even thought that the Gospel writers spoke Ill of the feast of yehuda.
I heard them like a call.
Especially in being a firstborn male

Three times in the year, every one of your males shall appear before the Lord, your God, in the place He will choose: on the Festival of Matzoth and on the Festival of Weeks, and on the Festival of Sukkoth, and he shall not appear before the Lord empty-handed.
So, what does the Lord mean by empty handed?
 
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Open Heart

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Out of curiosity, did he call himself a "Messianic Jew" "Messianic Orthodox Jew" or simply an "Orthodox Jew" that happened to believe that Yeshua was the Messiach? It is my experience that the Jewish people that keep Orthodox custom tend to shy from associating with the "Messianic" term and rather keep their Orthodox identity while believing at the same time.
He just called himself a Jew. To him all the other terms (Chabadnik, Messianic, Orthodox, Christian) applied, but were peripheral.
 
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Open Heart

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Peter was both a Messianic Orthodox Hebrew and a Pentecostal Hebrew.​
He did not call himself a Hebrew, he called himself a Jew. Even I chafed under my church's term "Hebrew Catholic." I'm a Jew. Jews do not often use the term Hebrew these days. When you use it, you sound awkward.

When you capitalize Pentecostal, it is the denominational group rather than the charismatic trait. The denominational group did not exist until the 20th century.
 
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Christie insb

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They are the Holy Convocations of YHWH ... They are not the Feasts of the Jews, but of YHWH

Leviticus 23:4
“Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘These are my appointed feasts, the appointed feasts of YHWH, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies. “‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to YHWH. “‘These are YHWH’s appointed feasts, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times:

A common problem during the translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek was that the translators, though fluent in Hebrew and Greek were not Jews and inserted words or passages into the text to clarify their intent.

Imagine the Hebrew Apostle John writing to his fellow Hebrews and saying the following:


John 2:13
When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

John 7:2
But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near,

Now why would a Jewish writer, writing for the mostly Hebrew church, insert the word Jewish into the text? He and his audience grew up with the Feasts. They knew that they were the Feasts of YHWH because the Torah told them so.

Besides, there was no such word as ‘Jew’ during those times.

Note: All of the above are excerpts from ... Feasts of YHWH - The Restoration of the Bride of Messiah
I am confused. The Septuagint translators weren't Jewish? Where does this idea come from? How would they be fluent in Hebrew if they weren't Jewish? Why would Jews leave the translation of their most holy texts to non-Jews? Anyway. I always try to learn something new so please teach me.
 
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Christie insb

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Christie insb

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Jewish descent only through mother? Or father also?
My kids' father is Jewish but I am not. So they are not Jewish. To me it seems annoying, but you always know who the mother is. If I were Jewish and the father not, they would be Jewish.

I don't know what would happen if a child of a Cohen was born to a Gentile mother. If the child converted to Judaism, would he then be considered a Cohen?
 
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ChavaK

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I don't know what would happen if a child of a Cohen was born to a Gentile mother. If the child converted to Judaism, would he then be considered a Cohen?
No. Both parents need to be Jewish.
 
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ralliann

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My kids' father is Jewish but I am not. So they are not Jewish. To me it seems annoying, but you always know who the mother is. If I were Jewish and the father not, they would be Jewish.

I don't know what would happen if a child of a Cohen was born to a Gentile mother. If the child converted to Judaism, would he then be considered a Cohen?
I think the problem is...in Messianic Judaism, some claim "Jewishness" for one distant relative at all, to call themselves Jewish. That must be frustrating for orthodox as well.
 
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ralliann

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No. Both parents need to be Jewish.
I have a question Chavak. Just so I know I am understanding this.
A Jewish woman has children with a Gentile husband = all her children are Jewish.
Her Jewish sons marry Gentile wives = all his Children are Gentile?
Her Jewish daughters marry Gentile husbands, all her children are Jewish?
Would that be correct?
 
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Christie insb

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I think the problem is...in Messianic Judaism, some claim "Jewishness" for one distant relative at all, to call themselves Jewish. That must be frustrating for orthodox as well.
I have seen many interesting things. One family in the Messianic congregation we used to go to claimed ancestry to the British royal family and to King Solomon. I did not bother to ask how this was revealed to them. There are great truly Messianic Jewish families out there too, but they have parents and grandparents who are Jewish
 
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ChavaK

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I have a question Chavak. Just so I know I am understanding this.
A Jewish woman has children with a Gentile husband = all her children are Jewish. Correct.
Her Jewish sons marry Gentile wives = all his Children are Gentile? Also correct.
Her Jewish daughters marry Gentile husbands, all her children are Jewish? Yes
Would that be correct?
As long as there is an unbroken maternal line, the children are Jewish.
 
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