Was it the translators?

[ChavaK]

Do they allow Christian Jews to make Aliyah?

No, they are considered to have left Judaism and therefore lose their right to make aliyah.

 

[ralliann]

I'm saying I was NOT a Jew, although I had thought I was. I was what they call a Crypto-Jew: someone of Jewish descent whose family continues to keep Jewish customs even though they may convert to Christianity. The most common Crypto-Jews are the descendants of those who were persecuted by the Inquisition and converted to Christianity by force.

Now in my case, intermarriage began to happen. At one point, a male ancestor married a non-Jew. Thus, I was not truly a Jew. Even though I had kept Jewish laws and traditions. Even though I identified with Israel. Even though I felt like a Jew. It did a number on my head. I solved the identity confusion by making a conversion to Judaism during a time in my life when I was not a Christian and I lived as a Rabbinic Jew for many years.

Not trying to get into your biz..... But many Messianic Gentiles keep Torah and feel like Jews...... From what you say, you are going way back to persecution days, and very distant relative. That goes sometime back.
And again your talking about a male in the line. But you began by saying it was your mothers line. Therefore I take it all the children from this male, were not considered Jews. So, there was a Jewish male sometime back in your moms family. From that point on, it was non Jewish. I guess it just gets me to hear your practice and feelings were Jewish, since having been involved with the Messianic movement in my past, this was pretty common among all of them. It just took some wind out of my sails when I thought I was fellowshipping with Jew's and found out maybe two in the whole shul were actually Jewish. Just saying.

 

[Heber Book List]

My standard comment to those who ask me about this issue is: If you have to ask if you are a Jew, then you probably are not! 90% of the time this view is proved correct.

 

[tampasteve]

Not trying to get into your biz..... But many Messianic Gentiles keep Torah and feel like Jews...... From what you say, you are going way back to persecution days, and very distant relative. That goes sometime back.
And again your talking about a male in the line. But you began by saying it was your mothers line. Therefore I take it all the children from this male, were not considered Jews. So, there was a Jewish male sometime back in your moms family. From that point on, it was non Jewish. I guess it just gets me to hear your practice and feelings were Jewish, since having been involved with the Messianic movement in my past, this was pretty common among all of them. It just took some wind out of my sails when I thought I was fellowshipping with Jew's and found out maybe two in the whole shul were actually Jewish. Just saying.

True, and if these people we're to look at conversion to Judaism instead of staying in Christianity they would be said to have had a Jewish soul and a calling. Many that feel this way do have a Jewish ancestor, but as you say it could be far back. But this is why @Open Heart stated why she had to have a halakhic conversion:

It's why I needed to straighten out my Jewish Identity with a halakhic conversion as an adult, to bring my heart and head into line with reality.

 

[Dave-W]

To me that's any oxymoron.

Not really. There are a few (quite small) organizations of Messianic Orthodox synagogues. One such group is the Coalition of Torah Observant Messianic Congregations ... The CTOMC. Another is The Union of Torah Observant Communities.

 

[Dave-W]

If they are associating with the traditional Jewish community, they should let their beliefs be known.

But many do not. Even one of the founders of the Modern MJ movement, Rabbi Isaac Lichtenstein of Romania did not let the wider Orthodox Jewish community know of his beliefs until after his death. (1908) Of course his own congregation and several of the nearby synagogues knew; and also became Messianic.

 

[Dave-W]

Contrary to popular belief, Jews are not a race, but an assembly of people. Hebrews are a race.

A common christian position vehemently opposed by the Jews.

 

[ralliann]

True, and if these people we're to look at conversion to Judaism instead of staying in Christianity they would be said to have had a Jewish soul and a calling. Many that feel this way do have a Jewish ancestor, but as you say it could be far back. But this is why @Open Heart stated why she had to have a halakhic conversion:

Ok. But what I am saying is....Any Gentile what so ever, can and have had the same. One Jewish ancestor or two in a long line, makes for no difference. Besides if it was not a messianic conversion, then Christ would have to be denied wouldn't he? So, connecting with ones Jewish feelings in this scenario, lets go of ones Christian feelings altogether, No?

 

[tampasteve]

Ok. But what I am saying is....Any Gentile what so ever, can and have had the same. One Jewish ancestor or two in a long line, makes for no difference. Besides if it was not a messianic conversion, then Christ would have to be denied wouldn't he? So, connecting with ones Jewish feelings in this scenario, lets go of ones Christian feelings altogether, No?

Yes, in this scenario one is converting to Judaism, which in this scenario denies Yeshua as the Messiach. Most MJ communities do not do conversions to Judaism, though I am aware that some rabbis do, but they would not be recognized by the Jewish community at large. That said, one does not have to openly deny Yeshua necessarily...He is not really a part of the Jewish faith, so it is not a part of the conversion process (though forsaking all other gods and recognizing Hashem as the one and only is a central part of the process). Conversion to Judaism with a rabbi is an arduous process, it takes much time, study and commitment, usually at least a year. But I do not think there are many people that would convert to Judaism with the intent of being MJ, there is not really a reason (but I am sure they are out there...). The scriptures are quite clear that gentiles do not need to convert to Judaism, whether to be Messianic or otherwise, there is a plan for them.

 

[pinacled]

Three times in the year, every one of your males shall appear before the Lord, your God, in the place He will choose: on the Festival of Matzoth and on the Festival of Weeks, and on the Festival of Sukkoth, and he shall not appear before the Lord empty-handed.

These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them:
"Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

"And as you go, preach, saying,

'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

"Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.

"Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support

For the worker is worthy of his support(provision).
I wonder if the Lord meant the 12 manner of fruit?
A good sabbath and new moons with heavenly treasures, finding fruit through winter
provisions in order.
gold, silver, copper, two coats, sandals, staff

…And having disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a festival, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.…

 

[ChavaK]

​

"Messianic orthodox Jew" wouldn't be an oxymoron any more than "Messianic Judaism"​

​

I don't disagree with you ​

 

[Heber Book List]

Yes, in this scenario one is converting to Judaism, which in this scenario denies Yeshua as the Messiach. Most MJ communities do not do conversions to Judaism, though I am aware that some rabbis do, but they would not be recognized by the Jewish community at large. That said, one does not have to openly deny Yeshua necessarily...He is not really a part of the Jewish faith, so it is not a part of the conversion process (though forsaking all other gods and recognizing Hashem as the one and only is a central part of the process). Conversion to Judaism with a rabbi is an arduous process, it takes much time, study and commitment, usually at least a year. But I do not think there are many people that would convert to Judaism with the intent of being MJ, there is not really a reason (but I am sure they are out there...). The scriptures are quite clear that gentiles do not need to convert to Judaism, whether to be Messianic or otherwise, there is a plan for them.

Technically, a believer cannot convert to Judaism, nor Judaism to Christianity, though it does happen by some oddity of both Judaism and Christianity.

 

[tampasteve]

Technically, a believer cannot convert to Judaism, nor Judaism to Christianity, though it does happen by some oddity of both Judaism and Christianity.

Sure a Christian Gentile can convert to Judaism, a conversion to Judaism is not quite like a conversion to say, Islam. One converts to Judaism and joins the religion and the people, culture, and lifestyle, one is now officially and forever "Jewish" - being Jewish is more than just a religion. Maybe similar to a conversion to the Roman Catholic Church, once you are converted you cannot go back, you are just a lapsed Catholic. That said, I would agree that one cannot convert from Judaism to Christianity as one will still be Jewish - just a believer in Yeshua/Jesus. The Jewish people would call you an apostate Jew and the Christians would just call you a Christian Jew, Messianic Jew, etc.

As Messianic Jews and Gentiles we probably have a slightly different view of the possibility or necessity of converting to Judaism if one desires to follow Torah and that path than mainstream Christians.

 

[Dave-W]

Besides if it was not a messianic conversion, then Christ would have to be denied wouldn't he?

That depends entirely on the Rabbi.
Even some Orthodox rabbis take a "don't ask, don't tell" approach.

 

[tampasteve]

That depends entirely on the Rabbi.
Even some Orthodox rabbis take a "don't ask, don't tell" approach.

Indeed, one does not have to deny something that really does not play into the religion. Yeshua is just a foot note for the Jewish faith, there just isn't much thinking about Him, therefore one does not have to outright deny him in order to convert. It's not like it is part of the question at the mikvah, though I am sure that some rabbis will delve into it some in personal meetings.

 

[Heber Book List]

Sure a Christian Gentile can convert to Judaism, a conversion to Judaism is not quite like a conversion to say, Islam. One converts to Judaism and joins the religion and the people, culture, and lifestyle, one is now officially and forever "Jewish" - being Jewish is more than just a religion. Maybe similar to a conversion to the Roman Catholic Church, once you are converted you cannot go back, you are just a lapsed Catholic. That said, I would agree that one cannot convert from Judaism to Christianity as one will still be Jewish - just a believer in Yeshua/Jesus. The Jewish people would call you an apostate Jew and the Christians would just call you a Christian Jew, Messianic Jew, etc.

As Messianic Jews and Gentiles we probably have a slightly different view of the possibility or necessity of converting to Judaism if one desires to follow Torah and that path than mainstream Christians.

Note the following:

a) the Tanach is a part of the Christian faith and Judaism.

b) The Christian Testament cannot exist without the Tanach.

c) Technically, to convert in terms of religion, one has to totally and utterly reject one's former religion and take on the NEW religion in its totality, forsaking all previous benefits or gains, obligations or actions, beliefs and philosophies of the previous religion.

Given that a) and b) are inextricably linked, conversion cannot take place because one way or another one cannot give up, totally and utterly, the benefits, gains, obligations or actions, beliefs and philosophies of the other religion.

It can only be a compromise between the two linked faiths, which is what MJ was meant to be in the first place!

 

[AbbaLove]

Most MJ communities do not do conversions to Judaism, though I am aware that some rabbis do, but they would not be recognized by the Jewish community at large.

Would you agree that originally the Messianic Judaism movement of the 60s and 70s was initiated by Messianic Jews that for various reasons were uncomfortable fellowshipping on Sunday in a denominational Christian church than they were gathering on the Sabbath with fellow Messianic Jews.

However, today there are some MJ congregations with as many (or more) non-Jew members (formerly denominational Christians) that gather for Sabbath fellowship and Jewish orthodoxy. To the point that some Messianic congregations (predominantly non-Jew) are even Pastored by a non-Jew that adheres to orthodox Judaism as much as any Jewish Rabbi led MJ congregation. Perhaps, the foremost prime example being Beth Immanuel Messianic Synagogue at Hudson, Wisconsin ... Beth Immanuel Messianic Synagogue ... Pastored by D.T. Lancaster whose MJ members are primarily non-Jewish. If they ever would refer to themselves as Christians (doubtful) it would hark back to the first century Christian congregations composed of both Jew and non-Jew that observed the Sabbath and honored the appointed Festivals of the LORD according to the Hebrew calendar.

 

[tampasteve]

Note the following:

a) the Tanach is a part of the Christian faith and Judaism.

b) The Christian Testament cannot exist without the Tanach.

c) Technically, to convert in terms of religion, one has to totally and utterly reject one's former religion and take on the NEW religion in its totality, forsaking all previous benefits or gains, obligations or actions, beliefs and philosophies of the previous religion.

Given that a) and b) are inextricably linked, conversion cannot take place because one way or one cannot give up, totally and utterly, the benefits, gains, obligations or actions, beliefs and philosophies of the other religion.

It can only be a compromise between the two linked faiths, which is what MJ was meant to be in the first place!

I of course cannot disagree with the bullet points A and B. However, C is where we run into a disagreement on the technicality of it. Conversion to Judaism is not just a religious conversion, it is a conversion of the very heart and soul. Once you convert you are Jewish, your very identity changes - you may lapse or become an apostate, but you are still Jewish. And you can convert a soul, apparently.

Further, in practice, the two faiths - while linked - are practiced entirely differently. MJ is obviously theologically and liturgically closer to mainstream Judaism, but mainstream Christianity is nearly completely different aside from a shared base scripture and some base beliefs.

 

[tampasteve]

​

Would you agree that originally the Messianic Judaism movement of the 60s and 70s was initiated by Messianic Jews that for various reasons were uncomfortable fellowshipping on Sunday in a denominational Christian church than they were gathering on the Sabbath with fellow Messianic Jews.

However, today there are some MJ congregations with as many (or more) non-Jew members (formerly denominational Christians) that gather for Sabbath fellowship and Jewish orthodoxy. To the point that some Messianic congregations (predominantly non-Jew) are even Pastored by a non-Jew that adheres to orthodox Judaism as much as any Jewish Rabbi led MJ congregation. Perhaps, the foremost prime example being Beth Immanuel Messianic Synagogue at Hudson, Wisconsin ... Beth Immanuel Messianic Synagogue ... Pastored by D.T. Lancaster whose MJ members are primarily non-Jewish. If they ever would refer to themselves as Christians (doubtful) it would hark back to the first century Christian congregations composed of both Jew and non-Jew that observed the Sabbath and honored the appointed Festivals of the LORD according to the Hebrew calendar.

Sorry, I fail to see why this is phrased as a question to me? Of course I agree, basically you wrote the history of MJ. I am very familiar with Beth Immanuel, I am a "Virtual Member" and have read much of their FFOZ literature and their podcasts were instrumental in my stopping my conversion to Judaism. I also do not refer to myself as a "Christian".

 

[Heber Book List]

I of course cannot disagree with the bullet points A and B. However, C is where we run into a disagreement on the technicality of it. Conversion to Judaism is not just a religious conversion, it is a conversion of the very heart and soul. Once you convert you are Jewish, your very identity changes - you may lapse or become an apostate, but you are still Jewish. And you can convert a soul, apparently.

Further, in practice, the two faiths - while linked - are practiced entirely differently. MJ is obviously theologically and liturgically closer to mainstream Judaism, but mainstream Christianity is nearly completely different aside from a shared base scripture and some base beliefs.

Would you not agree that 'conversion' from Christianity to Judaism has at its heart a religious element, otherwise one is just living an empty life as a secular 'Jew'?