Was it the translators?

[tampasteve]

Would you not agree that 'conversion' from Christianity to Judaism has at its heart a religious element, otherwise one is just living an empty life as a secular 'Jew'?

Absolutely, though one can convert to less religious movements like Reconstructionist or Humanistic. But as stated, the actual conversion is more than just a religious practice conversion. Further, being as conversion to Judaism requires observing the 613 mitzvot (to some degree) - requires being the operative word - the conversion process is more than just observing the mitvot as a gentile can do if one wishes.

 

[Heber Book List]

Absolutely, though one can convert to less religious movements like Reconstructionist or Humanistic. But as stated, the actual conversion is more than just a religious practice conversion. Further, being as conversion to Judaism requires observing the 613 mitzvot (to some degree) - requires being the operative word - the conversion process is more than just observing the mitvot as a gentile can do if one wishes.

The key issue is that, remembering a) and b), for a Christian to technically convert to Judaism he / she would have to renounce, totally and completely etc etc, his / her former faith. To do that he / she must renounce the Tanach and the Christian Testament and... take up the Tanach they have just renounced totally and completely that was in both parts of their bible! The observance is irrelevant to this discussion, because there is nothing stopping a Christian observing the Law, to the extent that they are able; no Jew today keeps all the Law, in its entirety.

This is why many people say that a Jew, on believing in Yeshua, becomes a 'complete Jew' as they cannot deny the Tanach, and then take it back again, as well as it then being in the Christian Testament they have now taken on board as conversion would require.

 

[Open Heart]

Jewish descent only through mother? Or father also?

Both

 

[Open Heart]

But many Messianic Gentiles keep Torah and feel like Jews

Hey, far be it from me to tell anyone in here what to do. First of all, Gentiles are just as good as Jews, just as loved, just as wondrous. The Gentiles in here have chosen to stay Gentile and that's just fine. I know of a few Messianic Gentiles who have chosen to go through UMJC's conversion to being a Jew. I think that's fine too. It's for each individual to figure out for themselves.

 

[tampasteve]

The key issue is that, remembering a) and b), for a Christian to technically convert to Judaism he / she would have to renounce, totally and completely etc etc, his / her former faith. To do that he / she must renounce the Tanach and the Christian Testament and... take up the Tanach they have just renounced totally and completely that was in both parts of their bible! The observance is irrelevant to this discussion, because there is nothing stopping a Christian observing the Law, to the extent that they are able; no Jew today keeps all the Law, in its entirety.

This is why many people say that a Jew, on believing in Yeshua, becomes a 'complete Jew' as they cannot deny the Tanach, and then take it back again, as well as it then being in the Christian Testament they have now taken on board as conversion would require.

Perhaps let me use an analogy:
A tortoise is a turtle
But a turtle is not a tortoises
IE, a Aldabra tortoise is a type of turtle, but a red slider turtle is not a tortoise.

Much the same, a Christian may believe in the Tanakh but will never be Jewish without conversion, but a Jewish person can be a believer without converting to Christianity (though they could convert to the RCC). The conversion to Judaism is a conversion of the heart and soul, not just of religion and faith. Conversions of the soul are found in other Christian denominations such as RCC and Orthodoxy, one cannot just start going to that church and "do the same things", one must convert, and then there is no gong back, it is a mark on the soul. So, in that case one is "converting" from one type of Christianity to another, so one is not really changing religions.

But I am not quite sure we are going to see eye to eye on this, I am sure that this conversation is probably better suited to a new thread as it is derailing this one (my fault). If you would like to make one, I would be happy to contribute

 

[Open Heart]

Confusing.....
You say this above...
Then this below...


Furthermore, this makes it appear (to me anyway, from what I have just learned here) That the Jewish ancestry was from a male, and not your mother????? None my business I quess, but it seems perhaps there is a little mixing of your personal criteria for being a Jew, and the official Jewish criteria. I understand a true and valid conversion makes anyone a Jew. But you seem to include an ancestry element that is confusing here with regard to your mothers line, then you say your fathers line. Oh well, none my biz.

The male was a great grandfather I think (it's been a while) on my mother's side. He married a gentile wife. Thus, all the children born to him were not Jewish, even though they kept up Jewish observances and traditions. This is the main reason I'm opposed to intermarriage, which you've probably seen in other posts of mine.

You know, you find out the most interesting things when you get into ancestry. 99% of it is boring shmoring. But its the 1% that is so exciting that makes it all worthwhile. My Scottish ancestry is absolutely wild. What's sad is that my dad's family just didn't keep any records.

 

[Heber Book List]

Perhaps let me use an analogy:
A tortoise is a turtle
But a turtle is not a tortoises
IE, a Aldabra tortoise is a type of turtle, but a red slider turtle is not a tortoise.

Much the same, a Christian may believe in the Tanakh but will never be Jewish without conversion, but a Jewish person can be a believer without converting to Christianity (though they could convert to the RCC). The conversion to Judaism is a conversion of the heart and soul, not just of religion and faith. Conversions of the soul are found in other Christian denominations such as RCC and Orthodoxy, one cannot just start going to that church and "do the same things", one must convert, and then there is no gong back, it is a mark on the soul. So, in that case one is "converting" from one type of Christianity to another, so one is not really changing religions.

But I am not quite sure we are going to see eye to eye on this, I am sure that this conversation is probably better suited to a new thread as it is derailing this one (my fault). If you would like to make one, I would be happy to contribute

Remember I did say that 'technically' it cannot be a conversion... though for some odd reason it happens by a quirk of the ingenuity of man. In a nut shell you are saying that 'conversion' is actually about means of observance and not a forced rejection of one religion in order to take up another.

We could ask a Mod to syphon off these posts and put them in a new thread? It will soon be bedtime here - could you message Lulav and ask her to do that, then others may join in, if you wish to continue the discussion

Abram was a Gentile, as was Ruth and several others in Yeshua's line. Acts 15 did not require conversion.

 

[tampasteve]

Remember I did say that 'technically' it cannot be a conversion... though for some odd reason it happens by a quirk of the ingenuity of man. In a nut shell you are saying that 'conversion' is actually about means of observance and not a forced rejection of one religion in order to take up another.

We could ask a Mod to syphon off these posts and put them in a new thread? It will soon be bedtime here - could you message Lulav and ask her to do that, then others may join in, if you wish to continue the discussion

Abram was a Gentile, as was Ruth and several others in Yeshua's line. Acts 15 did not require conversion.

Will do, thanks

 

[Open Heart]

A Jew is a convert to Orthodox Judaism and the Hebrews are an ethnic group of people.


Contrary to popular belief, Jews are not a race, but an assembly of people. Hebrews are a race.


A Hebrew may or may not be a Jew.


The word "Jew" was a nickname assigned by the Babylonians to anyone who either lived in or came from the area of Judea.

A Jew is the child of a Jewish mom OR a convert overseen by a Jewish beit din.

Jews are a tribal people, not a religion or a race.

The world "Jew" was coined by the Babylonians, but adopted first by other nationalities, and finally by the Children of Israelite ourselves. It referred to anyone belonging to the Kingdom of Judah, which was anyone of the tribes of Benjamin, Judah, Levi, or any of the refugees of the Northern Tribes, and ultimately, anyone who converted and became a Jew.

Hebrew = Israelite = Jew.
The only difference is what time period you are speaking from.
Abraham to the Exodus, you say Hebrew.
The Exodus to the Babylonian Exile, you say Israelite.
The Babylonian Exile to the present you say Jew.

There is no such thing as a Hebrew who is not a Jew. There are Hebrews/Jews who do not practice Judaism, but they are still Jews.

 

[ralliann]

​

If they ever would refer to themselves as Christians (doubtful) it would hark back to the first century Christian congregations composed of both Jew and non-Jew that observed the Sabbath and honored the appointed Festivals of the LORD according to the Hebrew calendar.

I disagree with this. It would have been illegal for an uncircumcised man to partake of the Passover. Rather believers kept the the Lord's supper along with Gentiles.

 

[Open Heart]

This is unclear???
According to the conversation we have been having here
A Jewish line through your mothers side.
Your mother cannot be Jewish or you would be a Jew....Then you say
And one was a gentile, though married to a Jew. Who was a gentile? And who was the Jew??? This post is unclear for me.

My great grandfather (I think, I researched this a long time ago) was a Jew, who married a gentile woman. This made all his children, and ultimately all his descendants, including me, NOT Jewish. Even though we kept up Jewish traditions, aka were Crypto-Jews.

 

[Open Heart]

The key issue is that, remembering a) and b), for a Christian to technically convert to Judaism he / she would have to renounce, totally and completely etc etc, his / her former faith. To do that he / she must renounce the Tanach and the Christian Testament and... take up the Tanach they have just renounced totally and completely that was in both parts of their bible! The observance is irrelevant to this discussion, because there is nothing stopping a Christian observing the Law, to the extent that they are able; no Jew today keeps all the Law, in its entirety.

In my case, I converted during a time that I had fallen away from Christ. (I know, I know. How awful.)

But for the record, UMJC also offers conversion to Judaism which is NOT the same as becoming MJ, which makes a Gentile a Jew. The process is the same as any Jewish denomination.

The oft heard claim that "no Jew today keeps all the law in its entirety" is IMHO an irrelevant point. They keep the laws which apply to them, and when they sin, they repent and return to the way. That's the way it was in Moses' time, and it was good enough for Hashem.

 

[Open Heart]

I disagree with this. It would have been illegal for an uncircumcised man to partake of the Passover. Rather believers kept the the Lord's supper along with Gentiles.

Both statements can't be true, since the Church decided not to circumcise Gentiles in Acts 15.

 

[ralliann]

Hey, far be it from me to tell anyone in here what to do. First of all, Gentiles are just as good as Jews, just as loved, just as wondrous. The Gentiles in here have chosen to stay Gentile and that's just fine. I know of a few Messianic Gentiles who have chosen to go through UMJC's conversion to being a Jew. I think that's fine too. It's for each individual to figure out for themselves.

I was only commenting that feeling Jewish and keeping Torah has nothing to do with actually being "Jewish" nowadays that's all. I did not intend to make a judgment on character.

I know of a few Messianic Gentiles who have chosen to go through UMJC's conversion to being a Jew. I think that's fine too. It's for each individual to figure out for themselves.

This is where I have a problem with the movement.

 

[ralliann]

Both statements can't be true, since the Church decided not to circumcise Gentiles in Acts 15.

The Lord's supper is the bread and wine, not a sacrifice of lamb. Plus, if Gentiles ate of the Jewish sacrifice, that would have been teaching to break the law. Not only that of Jew's but also Roman law. Look how Paul was accused of bringing a Gentile into the temple court, and the ruckus that caused. Of course it was a false accusation.

 

[Open Heart]

I was only commenting that feeling Jewish and keeping Torah has nothing to do with actually being "Jewish" nowadays that's all.

I absolutely agree with you.

This is where I have a problem with the movement.

UMJC's movement to convert Gentiles to Jews? Have you read their justification?
On Conversion

Like I said, each person has to decide for themself. I'm not opposed to either direction.

 

[ralliann]

I absolutely agree with you.


UMJC's movement to convert Gentiles to Jews? Have you read their justification?
On Conversion

Like I said, each person has to decide for themself. I'm not opposed to either direction.

Yes, I have read what they say. And as you are a Messianic, I am unsurprised at the lack of opposition. LOL, and a Gentile convert yourself!

 

[ralliann]

Yes, I have read what they say. And as you are Messianic, I am unsurprised at the lack of opposition.

 

[Open Heart]

Yes, I have read what they say. And as you are a Messianic, I am unsurprised at the lack of opposition. LOL, and a Gentile convert yourself!

Huh?

 

[ralliann]

Huh?

I am not surprised that you are not in opposition to Gentiles converting to Judaism is all.