Was God's Kingdom already established in 70 AD ? - Preterism views

[Snashin]

Hi, I'm a newbie at CF - so I hope I'm not messin' where I shouldn't be messin'.......but this is a subject I would like to discuss...so without further ado....

We have been living in the "end times" since the resurrection of the LORD which has now spanned over 2000 years.

I started to post this in the eschatology forum but was informed that this view is unorthodox and not allowed to be discussed in the Christian Only forums. It should only be discussed here in the Discussion & Debate > Unorthodox Theology section.


I have been a traditional Christian with a confused view of Revelation for the last umpteen years. When I read the Book of Revelation I saw one thing, but my church was telling me another. But I figured they knew what they were talking about. Recently, however, I have studied the Bible more indepth and have come to the conclusion that I was probably right to begin with.

My views, after further study, are that God's Kingdom has already been established. Jesus Christ was the first to rise out of the dead. Jesus was, literally, the "first resurrection." This fact, well attested by the writings of the New Testament, forms the basis for understanding Revelation 20:5-6:

"This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power" (Revelation 20:5-6)

In Matthew 24, there is a great tribulation (persecution) of the saints which is followed immediately by the coming of Christ, which causes the heavens & earth to be shaken and all the tribes of the earth to mourn (Matt. 24:30). In 2 Thess. 1:6-10, we see the same scenario. The saints were being persecuted. Christ would come and give them relief (AD 66), and at the same time give tribulation to their persecutors. We are talking about two different phases of the tribulation, with Christ’s return in the middle (the first against the saints in AD 62 - 66, and the second against their persecutors in AD 66-70). Both passages (in their contexts) deal with both phases.

I believe the Millennial view falls into the same trap that the Jews fell into - that is that Christ would come to establish his kingdom on and reign on the earth.

Jesus Christ returned in AD 70 with great fanfare. The destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was an event “with much fanfare.” Josephus, a Jewish priest, mentions some loud voices and trumpet sounds being heard, as well as angelic armies being visible in the sky over Judea at the time of the Jewish revolt (AD 66-70). Jews today still commemorate it in some fashion in almost every joyous occasion they celebrate (the shattered goblet at Jewish weddings, and a special fast day every year in August (Tisha b'Av) are two ways in which they still remember the destruction). Rabbi Davis (from White Plains NY), in his opening remarks of his (1978?) lecture on “Post-Biblical Judaism,” commented that he would begin the study of post-Biblical Judaism with “the end.” Then he said, he would begin with AD 70., because AD 70 was “the end of Biblical Judaism” and the beginning of rabbinic or Talmudic Judaism. Josephus, a Jewish priest and one of the ten Jewish generals who started the war with Rome in 66 A.D., gives his eyewitness account of that gruesome judgment which Jesus said was, “such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.” (Matt. 24:21) A few days later Jesus (at His trial) said the High Priest & the Sanhedrin, “shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matt. 27:64) Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius and the Talmud all record the FACT that God’s presence was perceived at that awesome destruction. They even record that angelic armies were seen in the clouds.

Believe that God's words and Jesus' words are literally true in this situation.

The point of this post is to point out that many religions have twisted the words of the Bible to suit their own purposes. We are, to some degree, formed by tradition. It is difficult and painful to believe that our beliefs could be mistaken. But if we are ever to find the truth - we must explore all religions to extrapolate the truths, which I believe are found in the beliefs they hold most dear. What I mean by that is this: Some believe in pre-tribulation, their whole religion is founded on that. We should examine this belief based on the conclusion that this is an area that convinced them so completely that there must be some truth to it. The same is true for Martin Luther, who staked his very life on the fact that we are saved by God's grace, and not our works. Various religions have been born based on the profoundly held convictions of their founders. All these founders could be considered 'specialists'. They have discovered a secret and based a religion on it because the Catholic Church was reluctant to change. Traditionalists have a terrible time accepting change.

Now, you could apply this theory to those who believe in the Rapture theory - but you must also verify it against the Bible.

Jesus said, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come” (Matt. 24:14). The good news had been preached to all the world by the time the book of Romans and the book of Colossians were written in the first century. (Romans 10:18) “Their voice (the voice of those preaching the good news) has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world”. (Col. 1:23) “This...gospel...has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven”. And shortly after the good news was preached in the whole world in the first century, the end of the Old Testament world came in fiery judgment in A.D. 70, at the destruction of Christ’s enemies.

Thus the end of Biblical Judaism. Historical records support the tale of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Now just like 'God's will - will be done' - I have another absolute. Jesus says this in Matthew 16:28: "Truly I say to you, there are some who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

What does this mean? I can think of only two questions at this point. Is it literal in the sense that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 fulfilled this statement. Or is it true in the sense that Jesus' believers would see Jesus' kingdom after they themselves were dead and resurrected?

Traditionalists will rush to say - what about this and what about that - but they must face the possibility that Jesus actually meant what he said.

Now, this may seem a bit confusing to some, and repulsive to others, so I'll end this post here and wait to see if this is of interest to anyone.

Seeking God with all my heart, all my soul, all my mind, and all my strength....
Snashin

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hello;
Lets plow right in.
First, John saw the Day of the LORD and the revelation of the LORD Jesus Christ and Him coming in power with great glory, to rule the earth. John said; "I was in spirit in the LORD'S Day =Day of the LORD, =Day of Christ, and He saw it all from heaven before he died.

~~~~~~~~~~
In Matthew 24 Jesus was answering his disciples, who asked him "when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the age..
these things included the destruction of the temple -that's done, so let's continue;

"Of the end of the age";
Jesus was speaking to Messianic Jews whose whole desire was to see the messianic age, when the Messiah ruled the world from restored Jerusalem, as promised, and every single seed of the wicked one would be removed off the earth and the reign of Peace would be over all the earth.
Not done.

Jesus gave a long list of things that would happen, but the end of the age is not yet; This age ends when 'this generation' passes away. The generation that inherits the earth remains, and that generation is the righteous seed, the children of God who have received His word in faith and acted upon it, producing fruit unto righteousness.

'This generation that shall pass away' at His return is the seed of the wicked one, who are children of the devil by being born as his children by believing his lies. they are "the wicked" who "go astray, speaking lies as soon as they are born" -as children of the devil.
Cain was of the wicked and slew his brother; and "all the blood of all the prophets from righteous Abel on will be required of 'this generation'" the generation of the wicked one, his children, who are the children of wrath who shall be cleansed off the earth for the reign of Peace.
God has no grandchildren and the devil has no grandchildren. There is one righteous generation and one wicked generation who are to be harvested; one gathered in the "barn" and one thrown in the fire.


Those born from above are brothers, with one Father; those born of the wicked one are brothers, with one father.


This generation has not passed away, so the age has not ended, Jesus has not come as lightning, with every eye in hell beneath and on earth seeing Him return on His throne of glory (every eye shall see him), to rule His kingdom on earth for the thousand year reign.

Psalm 37 is not fullfilled, for one, and Matthew 24:34 is not fullfilled.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be....
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one]; Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age.

The Parable of the Tares Explained
Matthew 13;
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


The disciples, Messianic Jews, knew their Scriptures that promised the restoration of Jerusalem as the throne of the LORD and knew of the promised Messianic Kingdom of Peace over all the earth. When? was answered -when He returns on His throne of glory and the wicked generation passes away and righteousness reigns.

 

[Snashin]

Hi yeshuasavedme,

Thanks for your reply. Plowing the other way now....

Jesus was speaking to Messianic Jews whose whole desire was to see the messianic age, when the Messiah ruled the world from restored Jerusalem, as promised, and every single seed of the wicked one would be removed off the earth and the reign of Peace would be over all the earth.
Not done.

Jesus is ruling the world and we (the people) are the restored Jerusalem. This ended the age of the Jewish covenant and brought in the new messianic covenant.
Like the Jews, we are expecting the Hallelujah Chorus to announce the arrival of the Lord - but she already sang that song in 70AD. Historical records prove that the end of the old ways of Israel ended then - like I said in my original post.

Jesus gave a long list of things that would happen, but the end of the age is not yet; This age ends when 'this generation' passes away. The generation that inherits the earth remains, and that generation is the righteous seed, the children of God who have received His word in faith and acted upon it, producing fruit unto righteousness.

Which specific things do you say have not happened? I believe they have from a spiritual point of view. Like the Jews we have been looking for a constant, unmistakable, physical appearance along the lines of Star Wars or Narnia.

'This generation that shall pass away' at His return is the seed of the wicked one, who are children of the devil by being born as his children by believing his lies. they are "the wicked" who "go astray, speaking lies as soon as they are born" -as children of the devil.

Where do you think the 'children of the devil' came from? I have a couple of opinions on this.

Those born from above are brothers, with one Father; those born of the wicked one are brothers, with one father.

What do you mean by this?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, consider for a moment that all of this did happen in 70AD. Consider the literal truth of Jesus' words. It is unmistakable that the disciples were told that the 2nd resurrection would happen in their lifetime. People saaaay that that the disciples misundersood what Jesus meant. But I prefer to take Jesus at His word.

God's Kingdom is us - not a church, or a place, or a land.
In my humble opinion (IMHO).

Seeking, and keeping it friendly....
Snashin

 

[Hidden Manna]

"Of the end of the age";
Jesus was speaking to Messianic Jews whose whole desire was to see the messianic age, when the Messiah ruled the world from restored Jerusalem, as promised, and every single seed of the wicked one would be removed off the earth and the reign of Peace would be over all the earth.
Not done.

Israel Reborn or Judged

I never thought of the Jews in our day fulfilling any Bible prophecy because they are not the biblical Jews or Israel that is in the Bible.

1948 Israel?
The reestablishment of the state of Israel in 1948 is considered to be the most important sign that the second coming is near. One of the great problems with this dispensational view is that there is no rebirth of Israel or rebuilt temple mentioned anywhere in the New Testament. Nor is the supposed re-gathering of the Jews to their homeland. This is puzzling, because if the rebirth of Israel is the “super sign,” you would think it would be very prominent in prophetic passages such as Matt. 24 and Revelation. It simply is not.

There is only one passage that dispensationalists point to that they say speaks of the rebirth of Israel and that is in Matt. 24.
“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.”

The thought is that the fig tree represents a re-born Israel. However, other passages in the New Testament cast doubt upon this interpretation. In Matthew 24’s parallel passage in Luke 21 Jesus says to “look at the fig tree and all the trees. When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near (Luke 21:29-30).” Are we talking about the rebirth of many nations here? It is far more logical to assume that Jesus was merely using the fig tree(s) as an object lesson.

Moreover, other passages that could associate Israel with a fig tree always speak of judgment and never of any sort of rebirth.
“Now in the morning, as He returned to the city, He was hungry. And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, ‘Let no fruit grow on you ever again.’ Immediately the fig tree withered away.

And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, ‘How did the fig tree wither away so soon?’

So Jesus answered and said to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.’” Matthew 21:18-21

Most scholars believe this particular fig tree did represent Old Covenant Israel. It was about to pass away and never bear fruit again. Jesus was not just mad because he wanted some figs and could not get any. Moreover, never again means never again.

Furthermore, when Jesus said that if they had faith and did not doubt, they would not only do what was done to the fig tree, but they could also say to this mountain “Be removed and be cast into the sea,” and it would be done. Was Jesus given them permission to tear up actual mountains and cast them into the sea? No, He was talking about something spiritual.

For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrews 12:18-24

If they had faith, they would see the Old Covenant which was represented by Mount Sinai torn up and cast away. And indeed it was.

Let us consider another parable with a fig tree.

“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’” (Luke 9:3-9)

Obviously, the fig tree is not a nation about to be reborn, but one that was about to be judged, and indeed it was. It is interesting that Jesus probably told this parable in the third year of His ministry.
Next we must look at the covenantal implications of the rebirth of Israel. God’s promise to give the Jews the land of Israel as their inheritance was an Old Covenant promise. This begs the question is the Old Covenant still in effect? If we say it passed away with the coming of the New Covenant, then so did the promise of the land.

However, if we say that it is still in effect for the Jews, we still run into problems. In the scriptures the promise that the Jews would hold the land of Israel was conditional. Deuteronomy 28 tells us “If you are not careful to do all the words of this law … you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it, And the LORD will scatter you among all the peoples, from one end of the earth to the other. …” If the people who now live in Israel are not keeping the Law of Moses (and they can’t be. The Mosaic Law ceased to be observed in AD. 70, and it has never been observed in full since.), how can we say that God has given them the land back?

Even if you say that God’s covenant with Abraham to give the Jews the physical land of Israel is still in effect, look what the Bible says are God’s conditions for remembering His promise.

“But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt— then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land, Leviticus 26:40-42.

Did the Jews meet this condition before the 1948 re-gathering? No! This dispensational view essentially makes God a liar!

 

[Breetai]

This is all I have to say:

Acts 1:10-11
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


In amillennialist thought, Christ is reigning with us now; just as you are describing. Yet, He will also physically return to judge the living and the dead. This is in accordance with the Bible.

This is also the predominant view of the Church. The pre-seven-year-tribulation rapture idea is mainly an American phenomenon.

 

[seebs]

Whose Kingdom shall have no end.​

In fact, Millennialism is contrary to the Nicene Creed.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

hello Snashin,
you put a lot on the plate, but we have to establish one point at a time, I think.
-I must, anyway.
Let's establish the generation of the righteous and the generation of the wicked to see which generation will pass away and which will inherit the earth and when that will be and how it relates to Matthew 24;
"this generation shall not pass away 'until'" -

"this generation shall, therefore, pass away "when" the age ends".

"The age ends when Jesus returns in glory on His throne of glory as lightning, and is seen by every eye as He returns to take possession of His purchased kingdom and reigns for the thousand years of peace". -BTW, His return as lightning on His throne of glory seen by every eye in earth and under the earth (for those who pierced him will see him from their place in Hades, even), is the one single sign of His coming that He gives.

One generation of the righteous of this earth are called the seed of, or sons of, God.
One generation of the wicked of this earth are called the seed of, or sons of, the devil. One inherits the earth, one is purged from the earth at His return just as at the flood of Noah, Jesus said.

When speaking of the first Adam, the generations continue until the seed of Adam is cut off (in the eighth day), from the inheritance of the kingdom, in the new heavens and the new earth; and the first father has grandchildren unto the cutting off: of which cutting off in the eighth day, circumcision is the sign of.

When speaking of the sons of God, or the sons of the devil, there are no grandchildren to either, and both 'sons' are spirit 'born' in a manner of speaking, by believing the words of the one they become the sons of, and bear fruit to their respective fathers.

Adam was created 'male and female', one 'being' (one 'spirit', Malachi 2:15), and told to multiply and fill the earth; and Malachi 2;15 tells us that He sought 'sons' (godly seed), by that creation of the 'one being', 'Adam', by making him/them of the 'one' spirit. Genesis 1;26-28; Genesis 5:2; Malachi 2:15.

Adam is no longer a son for the glory of the Presence of YHWH to inhabit, since the rebellion, because of the defilement of his being with the unclean fruit; and the Last Man, the second Adam, the 'Firstborn' and only begotten (in His humanity, only) of the Father (for Adam is dead), who is YHWH of hosts, second Person, is come in human flesh "to bring many sons to glory".

The Creator will have His human sons to indwell in glory, but by adoption in the New Man's Spirit, that 'One Spirit' of Adoption; for Adam cannot inherit the kingdom that He was cut off from. Those sons are the 'one generation' of the righteous of this earth, and each and every single person in Adam who is adopted in Christ is a 'brother' to Christ and a 'brother' to each other in that same Spirit.
That is the teaching of Scripture -are we agreed, or shall I list the Scriptures that I believe teach that?

He came to bring many sons to glory -to the Presence, for Him to indwell, as sons.
that is His purpose: and those sons will inherit the earth 'in' the Firsborn.


The righteous generation -those born of the good seed, as God's sons;
1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Psa 14:5 There were they in great fear: for God [is] in the generation of the
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Psa 24:6 This [is] the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
Psa 73:15 If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend [against] the generation of thy children.
Psa 112:2 His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.



Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
the wicked generation;
Pro 30:11 [There is] a generation [that] curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.

Pro 30:12 [There is] a generation [that are] pure in their own eyes, and [yet] is not washed from their filthiness.

Pro 30:13 [There is] a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.

Pro 30:14 [There is] a generation, whose teeth [are as] swords, and their jaw teeth [as] knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from [among] men.


Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

That's enough for this post; but I'd like to develop the theme of who is promised to inherit the earth and who will perish -pass away, when the LORD returns in glory to reign over His kingdom in person from restored Jerusalem for the thousand years.
If I try to hop all over, nothing will be established, and this theme is vitally important, for the promise is that the meek shall inehrit the earth and the wicked will perish out of it.
Read Psalm 37, if you would, for it goes with the theme of who shall perish -pass away, when, and why the Jews knew what Jesus meant.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hello Hidden Manna,

Would you mind reading Isaiah 49 and tell me the answer to Proverbs 30:4?

The Tree is Israel that the natural branches were lopped off of, and they will be grafted back into the tree when the fullness of the Gentiles comes into the harvest, is gathered, as sons, regenerated in bodies in the image of the 'New Man', the Israel of God.

God will not cast away His people for the name they bear, He says.

They are a sign of the eternal salvation offered in the adoption in the New Man, and 'they' as a nation (the remnant), will fullfill all their calling and be brought into the New Covenant in the blood of the New Man, whom they are named after, as the oracle.


Look at His declaration in Ezekiel 20, which will be fullfilled when he sends his angels and gathers His elect and brings them to the wilderness to deal with them when He returns on His throne of glory:
Ezekiel 20:33-44;
God Will Restore Israel
33 "As I live," says the Lord God, "surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord God.
37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.
39 "As for you, O house of Israel," thus says the Lord God: "Go, serve every one of you his idols--and hereafter--if you will not obey Me; but profane My holy name no more with your gifts and your idols. 40 For on My holy mountain, on the mountain height of Israel," says the Lord God, "there all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, shall serve Me; there I will accept them, and there I will require your offerings and the firstfruits of your sacrifices, together with all your holy things. 41 I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. 42 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers. 43 And there you shall remember your ways and all your doings with which you were defiled; and you shall loathe yourselves in your own sight because of all the evils that you have committed. 44 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your wicked ways nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel," says the Lord God.'"

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as [corn] is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Amo&chapter=9&verse=9&version=kjv

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Whose Kingdom shall have no end.

In fact, Millennialism is contrary to the Nicene Creed.​

​

As Daniel showed us, He must crush all authority, smashing them to pieces -as promised in Genesis 3:15, also.

It is to earth that His kingdom will come, when He takes His great power and reigns, and sends His holy angels to gather out of His kingdom all things that offend. He will take possession of His purchase, then, when He comes like lightning on His throne of glory -and every eye shall see Him.

He taught us to pray; "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, in earth, as it is in heaven".

from Isaiah 62:6,7
I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, [which] shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,
And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Welcome to the hall of the heretics Snashin. I was also a life long futurist until I actually started studying in depth the eschatalogical aspects of scripture. Now I am a full consistent preterist....and still a member of a Southern Baptist Church (although they are not aware that I believe such "heresy").

I believe preterism is the only view that just takes Jesus words literally and for exactly what He meant. He meant what He said and said what He meant. The apostles meant what they said and said what they meant....when they spoke CONSTANTLY about the immanent return of Jesus within their lifetimes.

I say a hearty "amen" to your original post....

I am sorry that I will not be able to discuss this further, as I had a computer crash at home and can only post from another computer....which I don't have access to very often. So good luck and God bless......

 

[Snashin]

yeshuasavedme,
Thank you for the time and effort you put into your posts. A lot to sort through, no doubt.


You're trying to say that the people of Adam were a generation and the people of Jesus are a generation. No problem, necessarily, there. Sometimes, however, generation does mean a 70 year period, or a certain number of years. Just like Genesis is a literal 6 day account of creation, or it's representative of 6 seperate ages or periods or generations. I'm involved in a Creation/Evolution debate on another forum site - and there we have to deal with billions of years versus just 6000 years. Not fun, that's for sure.


I understand that the old generation was to be judged under the law. The new generation to be judged by faith. The old generation was done, finished in 70 AD. This is why there is no more animal sacrifice, etc. The Jews did not want to believe in a Savior who rode to victory on a donkey, and some of us do not want to believe that something so great as the second coming of Christ has already occurred. We want to see it on the Jumbotron. Now!


(Side note: When I say things like Jesus did this or established that - I am just stating my opinion - I do not mean to sound like it's my way or no way. It's just my way of stating my beliefs. I'm not here to argue with anyone - just to discuss and debate. OK?)


Jesus established His kingdom in 70 AD. He is not 'still' establishing it. He is not waiting for anything else to happen in order to establish it. IF He did not establish it, then we would still be under the law, under the old generation.

One generation of the righteous of this earth are called the seed of, or sons of, God.
One generation of the wicked of this earth are called the seed of, or sons of, the devil. One inherits the earth, one is purged from the earth at His return just as at the flood of Noah, Jesus said.

I don't get this, in the context of your post.
1. One generation is called sons of God. Who is this?
2. One generation is called sons of the devil. Who is this?
3. One inherits the earth. Who is this?
4. One is purged from the earth at Jesus' return. Who is this?

the meek shall inehrit the earth and the wicked will perish out of it.

I'm sorry, I just don't follow. Nothing of this makes sense to me in the context of preterism. See Matthew 5:3-10 for example:

(they will inherit the earth and they will inherit the kingdom of heaven?)

3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. 10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Some of the beatitudes can only be fulfilled in heaven. Believers who are in this world will enjoy some of these blessings.

The Bible verses say what they say - but they can be interpreted differently, depending on your point of view.

Do you think you could list the things you do not think have happened yet? Maybe we could go that route.

 

[Snashin]

As Daniel showed us, He must crush all authority, smashing them to pieces -as promised in Genesis 3:15, also.

It is to earth that His kingdom will come, when He takes His great power and reigns, and sends His holy angels to gather out of His kingdom all things that offend. He will take possession of His purchase, then, when He comes like lightning on His throne of glory -and every eye shall see Him.

He taught us to pray; "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, in earth, as it is in heaven".

yeshuasavedme,

One more note on this quote......
He did.

It cannot possibly be on this earth. I can see why you're waiting on a second coming - because you do not see 'all things that offend' removed here on earth, yet. But these things were removed in the Our Father's Kingdom - which 'art in heaven' .

Saying His will - will be done - on earth - does not mean He has only one will, or the same will, for both heaven and earth.

His will - will be done on earth (that man will dwell in the Kingdom of God - which has been prepared for us 'I go to prepare a place')
His will - will be done in heaven (the fulfillment of His will - man comes to the place prepared for him).

This is where we ('whosoever believeth') will go now, when we die.

 

[Snashin]

Welcome to the hall of the heretics Snashin. I was also a life long futurist until I actually started studying in depth the eschatalogical aspects of scripture. Now I am a full consistent preterist....and still a member of a Southern Baptist Church (although they are not aware that I believe such "heresy").

I believe preterism is the only view that just takes Jesus words literally and for exactly what He meant. He meant what He said and said what He meant. The apostles meant what they said and said what they meant....when they spoke CONSTANTLY about the immanent return of Jesus within their lifetimes.

I say a hearty "amen" to your original post....

I am sorry that I will not be able to discuss this further, as I had a computer crash at home and can only post from another computer....which I don't have access to very often. So good luck and God bless......

EchoPneuma,

Thank you for the welcome. And what a mighty fine hall it is.

Please do come back and leave your thoughts when you can. The preterist view is very new to me, so I'm hoping for a few preterists to enhance the conversation.

Seebs,
Breetai,
Hidden Manna,
Welcome, and Thank you for your 2 bits.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Hello Hidden Manna,

Would you mind reading Isaiah 49 and tell me the answer to Proverbs 30:4?

The Tree is Israel that the natural branches were lopped off of, and they will be grafted back into the tree when the fullness of the Gentiles comes into the harvest, is gathered, as sons, regenerated in bodies in the image of the 'New Man', the Israel of God.

God will not cast away His people for the name they bear, He says.

They are a sign of the eternal salvation offered in the adoption in the New Man, and 'they' as a nation (the remnant), will fullfill all their calling and be brought into the New Covenant in the blood of the New Man, whom they are named after, as the oracle.


Look at His declaration in Ezekiel 20, which will be fullfilled when he sends his angels and gathers His elect and brings them to the wilderness to deal with them when He returns on His throne of glory:
Ezekiel 20:33-44;
God Will Restore Israel
33 "As I live," says the Lord God, "surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord God.
37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.
39 "As for you, O house of Israel," thus says the Lord God: "Go, serve every one of you his idols--and hereafter--if you will not obey Me; but profane My holy name no more with your gifts and your idols. 40 For on My holy mountain, on the mountain height of Israel," says the Lord God, "there all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, shall serve Me; there I will accept them, and there I will require your offerings and the firstfruits of your sacrifices, together with all your holy things. 41 I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. 42 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers. 43 And there you shall remember your ways and all your doings with which you were defiled; and you shall loathe yourselves in your own sight because of all the evils that you have committed. 44 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your wicked ways nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel," says the Lord God.'"

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as [corn] is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Amo&chapter=9&verse=9&version=kjv

God did restore Israel after they came out of Babylon according to what the OT prophets said and therefore Herod's temple was built and then destroyed according to what Jesus said.

Did Jesus ever say another physical temple would be built? of coarse not because the believer has become the temple in which God dwells.

 

[Hidden Manna]

EchoPneuma,

Thank you for the welcome. And what a mighty fine hall it is.

Please do come back and leave your thoughts when you can. The preterist view is very new to me, so I'm hoping for a few preterists to enhance the conversation.

Seebs,
Breetai,
Hidden Manna,
Welcome, and Thank you for your 2 bits.

Your welcome, the more FP the better

 

[Breetai]

I believe preterism is the only view that just takes Jesus words literally and for exactly what He meant. He meant what He said and said what He meant. The apostles meant what they said and said what they meant....when they spoke CONSTANTLY about the immanent return of Jesus within their lifetimes.

Do you take this verse literally???

Acts 1:10-11
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[Snashin]

Do you take this verse literally???

Acts 1:10-11
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

I can or I don't need to. It has the same effect either way. I choose to take it literally because I believe what the Bible says (insofar as the translations are accurate).

Also see Acts 1:6-9
6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

Jesus told them that they would be His witnesses to the ends of the earth. Jesus also said that the end would come when the gospel had been preached....to the ends of the earth.
The good news had been preached to all the world by the time the book of Romans and the book of Colossians were written in the first century. (Romans 10:18) “Their voice (the voice of those preaching the good news) has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world”. (Col. 1:23) “This...gospel...has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven”. And shortly after the good news was preached in the whole world in the first century, the end of the Old Testament world came in fiery judgment in A.D. 70, at the destruction of Christ’s enemies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Questions:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For those who might think that heaven is on earth - where do we find room for all the people? Are there so few (the road is narrow) that this will not be a problem?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When Jesus said to the thief on the cross:

Luke 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Today? Did Jesus lie? Does today mean 1000 years (a thousand years is as a day to the Lord) from now?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why would Jesus mislead His disciples? Why would He make them believe He was going to return before some of them would pass away (die), and then not do it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If we are to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth - we will be preaching til kingdom come! (pun)
Hmmm, so if the kingdom is already here - does that mean preachers are supposed to stop preaching?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[yeshuasavedme]

yeshuasavedme,
Thank you for the time and effort you put into your posts. A lot to sort through, no doubt.


You're trying to say that the people of Adam were a generation and the people of Jesus are a generation. ...

I'm sorry, I just don't follow. Nothing of this makes sense to me in the context of preterism. See Matthew 5:3-10 for example:

(they will inherit the earth and they will inherit the kingdom of heaven?)

3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. 10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Some of the beatitudes can only be fulfilled in heaven. Believers who are in this world will enjoy some of these blessings.

The Bible verses say what they say - but they can be interpreted differently, depending on your point of view.

Do you think you could list the things you do not think have happened yet? Maybe we could go that route.

I do not believe any of them have happened since the destruction of the temple and the scattering of the Jews, not one single one -not in relation to Israel, not from Matthew 24; and I do not believe that there are any signs to watch for, for the rapture ="laqach" of the Church, for there are no feasts for the Church to keep, no appontments, just a waiting for the trumpets that sound the call to assemble at the door of our true temple in heaven.

The last week of Daniel's 69 weeks is the time Jesus speaks of, and that begins when the Church is taken out of the way, in the great gathering together in the air at the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the translation in body of the living saints.
The list is for those Messianic Jews of the nation of Israel who come into the blood covenant after the Church is "laqach" =raptured=harpazo.
~
On generations: No. Adam has many grandsons, but God has only one generation of the righteous and the Devil has only one 'generation' of the wicked.

One is a child of the devil, or a child of God; and neither the devil nor God have grandchildren. That is the theme of the generation of wrath and the generation of the righteous of Scripture.

The generation of the righteous are those 'sons' of God by faith in the promise: Abra "H" am was a son by faith, but had to wait for the New birth promised in His name change, to come. In fact: he had to wait, also, in the first death of separation from the Presence of glory, in Hades (though in comfort), until the Day Jesus ascended on high and 'led captivity captive".

The regenerated earth is where the redeemed will live for all eternity. Those Blessed of the LORD who enter the millennial reign to populate the earth for the thousand year Sabbath reign will be in the foreshadowing of the eternal kingdom; but when Jesus Christ returns 'as lightning' on His throne of glory to reign from restored Jerusalem for the thousand years, those who have been regenerated in body will reign for the thousnad years from the heavenly realm, over this earth, under Him, from the realm that the wicked principalities and powers reign from, presently, who are those rulers who have dominions in high places but are wicked.

I am not sure that we who are regenerated in body will not be able to freely visit on business and fellowship on earth, as the veil (of spiritual separation) that covers 'all nations' will be destroyed forever when Jesus returns to reign and binds the devil for the thousand years; but I believe the thrones of the regenerated will be in the heavenly realm, not on earth, during that time.

Michael and his angels will cast the devil and his angels out of heaven and down to earth during the seven year tribulation -and we who are taken to be with the LORD will be given the dominions, under Him that they presently have -if we are counted worthy to rule. That is my belief and I think I can provide plenty of Scriptural support -but it is another study. We who are regenerated in body at the "laqach" get 'Canaan' 'in heaven' to occupy for the thousand years.

This earth is the kingdom that was prepared for the human sons of God, in the six days of creation; and those who inherit the earth during the millennial reign will be called "the Blessed of the LORD", and they will have eternal life by the adoption in Spirit, as we do, now, but they will not have their regenerated bodies until the thousand years is through.

The Church, however, will have their regenerated bodies at the beginning of the thousand years: the first resurrection is finished at the end of the seven years, but began with the Firstfruits on the first offering of firstfruits on the first, first Day, after Passover: the full harvest begins at the beginning of the seven year trib, and the last gathering of that harvest is at the end of the seven years, when those martyrs are resurrected to reign over the earth, also.

The Feast of Tabernacles teaches of the last harvest, after the thousand years is through; and that is why that Feast will be kept by all nations -all the Gentile nations will be required to keep it by sending up the required males to Jerusalem on Tabernacles each year of the thousand year reign.

Pentecost represents the first harvest and that feast is not celebrated in the thousand years because it is finished at the end of the seven years, with the first resurrection =first harvest, completed.
God harvests sons in the first harvest, and He also gets sons in the last harvest, but two different harvests.
The 144,000 of the twelve teribes are called firstfruits of Israel, and Israel will have a full harvest at the end of the thousand years.
Those who are resurrected, still in Adam, having never been adopted in Christ, will be cast aways in the final harvest, in the lake of fire forever.

The first harvest is the "Gentile Church", mainly.

All these things are taught in the living oracles given to Israel.


This earth was given to Adam and 'ben Adam'; Israel (the New Man) ransomed it back for the Father's glory and marries the barren widow of Adam to raise up the sons of God (by adoption into His New Man Spirit) whom the Creator sought when He made Adam one "being", male and female, and commanded them to multiply (their being) because He, the Creator, sought sons =godly seed, to inhabit, who would inhabit this earth forever; Malachi 2:15; Genesis 1:26-28; Genesis 5:2.
Did I answer your questions? -I'm happy to take any of these issues and develop the Scriptural support, and the Scriptures actually do destroy preterism -I think you'll find when you really get into a Scriptural examination of it, you'll see.

This generation is the wicked that shall perish, as they did in the flood, as Jesus teaches in Matthew 24, when the Son of Man returns to cleanse His kingdom of all things that offend and to rule from Jerusalem, as He also teaches about the tares and His return as son of Man on His throne of glory.

The Church that is written above is being built as long as the Holy Spirit adds souls that are saved, daily, to it, and the Church is the House for the habitation of the Presence of glory to inhabit as the "Holy of Holies" forever, in the regeneration =the New Jerusalem is that house, which is the Holy of Holies where the glory dwells forever.

That is a huge theme of Scripture, and it is what the creation, the fall, and the redemption is about, and Who, what, when, why, and where.
John 14:1-3 sums it up.
"In my Father's house are many dwelling places"
The Presence of the glory of the Father is the Presence who dwells in the 'places' in His 'house' =heaven.
"I go to prepare a place for you".
I am going to the cross to prepare you 'a place': I will make you a cleansed being, by offering in the New Man Blood that I shed, and I will make you a 'New House' for your being to dwell in.
In other words: I'll regenerate your human body into a New Man body like mine when I come to receive you to Myself, and then the Father will glorify you with His Presence of glory forever and you will be His dwelling place, also.

And if I go away, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am you may be also.

He came to bring 'many sons' to glory, for the Father to indwell in His presence of glory.

We are to pray that His kingdom come, His will be done in earth as it is in heaven.
Hbr 2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Please do go back and see what I already wrote and follow the themes out, in Scripture, for I by no means exhausted the generation of the wicked and the generation of the righteous from Scripture.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

God did restore Israel after they came out of Babylon according to what the OT prophets said and therefore Herod's temple was built and then destroyed according to what Jesus said.

Did Jesus ever say another physical temple would be built? of coarse not because the believer has become the temple in which God dwells.

Yes, He did personally say there would be another temple as described to Ezekiel, which has never been built and shall be built; Jesus is YHWH of hosts, second Person, whom Ezekiel saw -pre-incarnate- in the book of Ezekiel, beginning in chapter 1 and through to the end, and Ezekiel saw Him when He returns to sit in the Holy of Holies in the temple that Ezekiel described (chapter 43:1-7) that has never been built and shall be built on earth, in Jerusalem, on the raised temple mount when the Son of Man returns on His throne of glory, like lightning, to reign for the thousand years Sabbath of peace on this present earth.

This is the vision of Jesus that Ezekiel saw, when He returns in Person to sit n the Holy of Holies of that millennial temple as King of kings and High Priest over this earth for the reign of Peace;
The Temple, the Lord's Dwelling Place
Ezekiel 43
Afterward he brought me to the gate, the gate that faces toward the east. 2 And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east. His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. 3 It was like the appearance of the vision which I saw--like the vision which I saw when *I(He) came to destroy the city. The visions were like the vision which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. 4 And the glory of the Lord came into the temple by way of the gate which faces toward the east. 5 The Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple.
6 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me. 7 And He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name, they nor their kings, by their harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places. 8 When they set their threshold by My threshold, and their doorpost by My doorpost, with a wall between them and Me, they defiled My holy name by the abominations which they committed; therefore I have consumed them in My anger. 9 Now let them put their harlotry and the carcasses of their kings far away from Me, and I will dwell in their midst forever.
10 "Son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern. 11 And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple and its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, its entire design and all its ordinances, all its forms and all its laws. Write it down in their sight, so that they may keep its whole design and all its ordinances, and perform them. 12 This is the law of the temple: The whole area surrounding the mountaintop is most holy. Behold, this is the law of the temple.

Would you please read Ezekiel 20:33-44 and tell me when that has been fullfilled (it will be fullfilled after the great tribulation, however, for the angels will gather all the Jews out of all nations and not one grain of them will be left, as Amos 5:20 says, and bring them to the wilderness, as Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 tell us to judge, as Ezekiel 20:33-44 tells us).

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Now, if you'll read the Bible on the history of the dispersion of the Jews you'll see that never in the history of that people have every 'grain" of them been gathered back to the nation of Israel, with not one of them remaining in the Gentile nations. they have never all returned, as promised.


Look, HiddenManna -not one grain of them will be left that has been sifted among all the Gentiles when He sends His angels to gather them back after the great tribulation:
Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as [corn] is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why would Jesus mislead His disciples? Why would He make them believe He was going to return before some of them would pass away (die), and then not do it?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~...

Hello Snashin,
I hope you are taking the Scriptures I listed and searching the themes out; meantime;
Where did Jesus mislead His disciples and promise that He would return before some of them passed away?