Was God's Kingdom already established in 70 AD ? - Preterism views

[bryanhilton]

(Taken from BibleGateway)

<H4>2 Thessalonians 2



1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(I bolded the part in 3)

Hidden Manna,

You never answered my question about the antichrist, the 2 witnesses, the mark of the beast, and also the physical Kingdom of God coming from the third heaven. I read somewhere that a Preterist takes Old Testament Prophecy is physically fulfilled and New Testament Prophecy is spiritually fullfilled which would explain some of the views that you have posted.
</H4>

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hidden Manna; We are no long in Adam or of Adam when we are in Christ right ?

We who are born from above and joined to the Living Spirit by adoption, who remain alive on this present unregenerated earth, will continue to live in our adamic bodies until we depart them (according to Adam in the flesh), or until we are translated alive, without them sleeping in the dust, and our bodies are of the earth =Hebrew 'adamah', and blood =Hebrew 'dam' until they are regenerated into the New Creation human being Man bodies.

That translation of the elements of this present creation into the regenerated form of the New Creation, fully human flesh bodies, in which bodies we will not be called "Adam", but Israel; will happen at the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the time He comes with them to resurrect their bodies and change the bodies of the living Saints. The seed of Adam will continue to muliply, as commanded in Genesis 1, until the end of the seventh millennium of this earth, and then all seed of Adam will be cut off in the end of the seventh Day; for the sign of circumcision teaches that, in the oracle of circumcision given to Abraham, for him and his descendents to perform on all males born in his house or of him, on the eighth day -after seven full days are completed.

We live according to God in the Spirit -of adoption- but we will not be shed of our adamic bodies of death until we leave them to return to the dust from which they came, unregenerated, or until we are changed in them, instantly, at the "laqach" =rapture.

The days as thousands are fully taught in the oracles given to Israel, beginning with the circumcision and with the seventh day Sabbath as a sign given only to Israel: all the oracles of the thruths of God's Person and plan for our redemption are given as oracles to Israel, and in those oracles we learn that the seed of Adam is to be cut off, after seven days, of thousands, are completed.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

(Taken from BibleGateway)

<H4>2 Thessalonians 2



2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

</H4>

Hello byronhilton,
I wanted to point out that the departing in that verse is not a departing of the Church from the faith, and there is no reason for the teaching as such, but a departing of the Church frrom the earth, as the theme of the chapter is speaking of.
The word has the article, referring to the gathering to Him, of the opening verse of the chapter; and the word was translated the departing for 1500 years of Church history, and refers only to the gathering of all believers to the LORD in the air, which must happen before the final man of sin can be revealed -as Paul told them before, and is reminding them of; for they were being deceived that the Day of the LORD (which begins with 'night', lasting seven years, on earth -but called one week, from heaven's view, as pr Leviticus 8, and the consecration of the priests behind the temple door for seven days after donning the garments of priesthood, etc, and Daniel's seventieth week until the reign of Messiah on earth) was at hand.
The Church is the "son" in Christ, as the 'male child', who is the one like the son of Man, of Daniel coming to the Ancient of Days (Christ) and Revelation 12, raptured to the throne.


Israel is woman, male, wife, son, and the Church is woman, bride, sons of God in the One Firstborn, who is Israel, Himself (Isaiah 49), and we in Him are the 'one' Church, called the 'male-child' and 'one' like the Son of Man that the angel in Daniel says 'is' the 'saints of the Most Hign, coming to the Ancient of Days to receive the kingdom -that He has already recevied and will share with us, who are made 'one' New Man, in Him.

 

[Hidden Manna]

(Taken from BibleGateway)

<H4>2 Thessalonians 2



1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(I bolded the part in 3)

Hi bryanhilton,

So what did you mean by (I bolded the part in 3)

3Let no man deceive you

The scriptures you quoted were written before AD70 and would apply to the people back then. Are to trying to apply that to me?

Here is something that was written after AD70

Have you read the letters of Ignatius of Antioch? He was the second from the Apostle John to write many letters to the new testament churches. The first was Polycarp, who was a disciple of John, but he only wrote one letter to the Philippians that was mainly polemic. Ignatius (who was a disciple of Polycarp), however, makes clear preterist statements in his writings. His most powerful statement to the church of the Magnesians was "Jesus was with the Father in the beginning and has appeared at the end". He talks about how the OT prophets have already been raised (resurrected) and how we have already been gathered unto God. Clear statements of those things that would only occur at the Second Coming, yet Ignatius speaks of them in the past tense....as a present reality in his day.

You can't get any earlier than that. Talk about orthodox belief. Yet Preterist are called heretics.

Hidden Manna,

You never answered my question about the antichrist, the 2 witnesses, the mark of the beast, and also the physical Kingdom of God coming from the third heaven. I read somewhere that a Preterist takes Old Testament Prophecy is physically fulfilled and New Testament Prophecy is spiritually fullfilled which would explain some of the views that you have posted.
</H4>

I was waiting for you to get back to me after I posted about the Biblical Last Days and Israel Reborn or Judged.

I will post about the two beast of Rev. 13 next post and then take it from there with the other ones.

 

[Hidden Manna]

THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET

(Revelation 13)



The Book of Revelation is a covenant document. It is a prophecy, like the prophecies of the Old Testament. This means that it is not concerned with making "predictions" of astonishing events as such. As prophecy, its focus is redemptive and ethical. Its concern is with the covenant. There is not a chance that the Biblical authors would have thought it important to prophesy about Cobra helicopters (which would be rendered obsolete by "Blue Thunder"), or personal computers, or chewing gum, or space shuttles. Nor would they have been interested in foretelling the future of the United States of America, the Soviet Union, or the Grand Duchy of Luxemburg. The point is not that these things are unimportant (in varying degrees), or that "spiritual" Christians should not be concerned about all areas of life; we should. But the point is that the Bible is God's revelation about His covenant with His people. It was not written to satisfy our curiosities about the Common Market or the prime rate of interest. It was written to show what God has done to save His people and glorify Himself through them.

Therefore, even when God speaks of the Roman Empire in the Book of Revelation, His purpose is not to tell us exciting bits of news about life at Nero's court. He speaks of Rome only in relation to the covenant and the history of redemption. The Roman Empire is not seen in terms of itself, but solely in terms of 1) the Land (Israel), and 2) the Church.


The Beast from the Sea

The Roman Empire is symbolized in Revelation as a ravenous, ferocious animal, untamed and under the Curse. John says its appearance was like a leopard, a bear, and a lion (Rev. 13:2)—the very animals used to describe the first three of the four great world empires in Daniel 7:1-6 (Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece; cf. Daniel's description of the same empires under a different symbol, in Dan. 2:31-45). The fourth empire, Rome, partakes of the evil, beast-like characteristics of the other empires, but it is much worse: "Behold, a fourth Beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed, and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns" (Dan. 7:7). The Beast of Revelation is clearly the Roman Empire.

This Beast, however, is not just an institution, but a person; specifically, as we shall see, the Emperor Nero. How could this symbol have referred to both the Empire and the Emperor? Because, in a sense (particularly the way the Bible looks at things), the two could be considered as one. Rome was identified with its leader; the Empire was embodied in Nero. Thus the Bible can shift back and forth between them, or consider them both together, under the same designation. And both Nero and the Empire were sunk in degrading, degenerate, bestial activities. Nero, who murdered numerous members of his own family (including his pregnant wife, whom he kicked to death); who was a homosexual, the final stage in degeneracy (Rom. 1:24-32); whose favorite aphrodisiac consisted of watching people suffer the most horrifying and disgusting tortures; who dressed up as a wild beast in order to attack and rape male and female prisoners; who used the bodies of Christians burning at the stake as the original "Roman candles" to light up his filthy garden parties; who launched the first imperial persecution of Christians at the instigation of the Jews, in order to destroy the Church; this animalistic pervert was the ruler of the most powerful empire on earth. And he set the tone for his subjects. Rome was the moral sewer of the world.

Let's consider what the Book of Revelation tells us about Nero/Rome, the Beast. First, John saw him "coming up out of the sea" (Rev. 13:1). In a visual, dramatic sense, of course, the mighty Roman Empire did seem to arise out of the sea, from the Italian peninsula across the ocean. More than this, however, there is the Biblical symbolism of the sea. At the original creation, the earth was a fluid, formless, uninhabitable mass of darkness, which the light of the Spirit "overcame" (Gen. 1:2; John 1:5). Obviously, there was no real conflict between God and His creation; in the beginning, everything was "very good." The sea is most fundamentally an image of life. But after the Fall, the picture of the raging deep is used and developed in Scripture as a symbol of the world in chaos through the rebellion of men and nations against God: "The wicked are like the tossing sea; for it cannot be quiet, and its waters toss up refuse and mud" (Isa. 57:20; cf. 17:12). Thus John is told later that "the waters which you saw…are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues" (Rev. 17:15). Out of this chaotic, rebellious mass of humanity emerged Rome, an entire empire founded on the premise of opposition to God.

Second, John saw that the Beast had "ten horns and seven heads" (Rev. 13:1), in the image of the Dragon (12:3), who gives the Beast "his power and his throne and great authority" (13:2). The ten horns (powers) of the Beast are explained in Revelation 17:12 in terms of the governors of the ten imperial provinces, while the seven heads are explained as the line of the Caesars (17:9-11): Nero is one of the "heads" (we will return to this in the following chapter).

Third, "on his heads were blasphemous names" (13:1). As we have already seen, the Caesars were gods. Each emperor was called Augustus or Sebastos, meaning One to be worshiped; they also took on the name divus (god) and even Deus and Theos (God). Many temples were erected to them throughout the Empire, especially, as we have seen, in Asia Minor. The Roman Caesars received honor belonging only to the one true God; Nero commanded absolute obedience, and even had an image of himself built, 120 feet high. For this reason Paul called Caesar "the man of sin"; he was, Paul said, "the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God" (2nd Thess. 2:3-4). John emphasizes this aspect of the Beast: "And there was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies…. And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His Name and His tabernacle, those who tabernacle in heaven" (13:5-6). The Christians were persecuted precisely because they refused to join in this idolatrous Emperor-cult.

Fourth, John saw "one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed" (13:3). Some have pointed out that, after Nero was killed, the rumor began to spread that he would rise again and recapture the throne; in some way, they suppose, John must be referring to that myth. This, it seems to me, is a very unsatisfactory method of dealing with Scripture. John mentions the Beast's "death-wound" three times in this passage (see v. 12, 14); clearly, this is much more than a casual symbol, and we should attempt a Biblical explanation for it.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Pt.1 cont.

The Beast, as we saw, resembles the Dragon. The fact that he receives a head wound should make us think of the scene in the Garden of Eden, when God promised that Christ would come and crush the Dragon's head (Gen. 3:15). Daniel had prophesied that in the days of the Roman rulers, Christ's Kingdom would crush the Satanic empires and replace them, filling the earth. Accordingly, apostolic testimony proclaimed that Christ's Kingdom had come, that the devil had been defeated, disarmed, and bound, and that all nations would begin to flow toward the mountain of the Lord's House. Within the first generation, the gospel spread rapidly around the world, to all the nations; churches sprang up everywhere, and members of Caesar's own household came into the faith (Phil. 4:22). In fact, Tiberius Caesar even formally requested that the Roman Senate officially acknowledge Christ's divinity. For a time, therefore, it looked as if a coup were taking place: Christianity was in the ascendant, and soon would gain control. Satan's head had been crushed, and with it the Roman Empire had been wounded to death with the sword (Rev. 13:14) of the gospel.

But then the tables were reversed. Although the gospel had spread everywhere, so had heresy and apostasy; and under persecution by the Jews and the Roman State, great masses of Christians began falling away. The New Testament gives the definite impression that most of the churches fell apart and abandoned the faith; under Nero's persecution, the Church seemed to have been stamped out entirely. The Beast had received the head-wound, the wound unto death—yet it still lived. The reality, of course, was that Christ had defeated the Dragon and the Beast; but the implications of His victory still had to be worked out; the saints had yet to overcome, and take possession (Dan. 7:21-22; Rev. 12:11).

Fifth, "the whole Land wondered after the Beast; and they worshiped the Dragon, because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the Beast, saying, 'Who is like the Beast, and who is able to make war against him?'" (13:3-4). John is not speaking of the world following the beast; the word he uses here should be translated Land, meaning Israel. We know this because the context identifies his worshipers as those who dwell on the Land (Rev. 13:8, 12, 14)—a technical phrase used several times in Revelation to denote apostate Israel. In the Greek Old Testament (the version used by the early Church), it is a common prophetic expression for rebellious, idolatrous Israel about to be destroyed and driven from the land (Jer. 1:14; 10:18; Ezek. 7:7; 36:17; Hos. 4:1, 3; Joel 1:2, 14; 2:1; Zeph. 1:8), based on its original usage in the historical books of the Bible for rebellious, idolatrous pagans about to be destroyed and driven from the Land (Num. 32:17; 33:52, 55; Josh. 7:9; 9:24; Jud. 1:32; 2 Sam. 5:6; 1st Chron. 11:4; 22:18; Neh. 9:24). Israel had become a nation of pagans, and was about to be destroyed, exiled, and supplanted by a new nation. It is true, of course, that Nero was loved all over the Empire as the benevolent provider of welfare and entertainment. But it is Israel in particular which is condemned for Emperor-worship. Faced with a choice between Christ and Caesar, they had proclaimed: We have no king but Caesar! (John 19:15). Their reaction to Caesar's apparently victorious war against the Church (Rev. 11:7) was awe and worship. Israel sided with Caesar and the Empire against Christ and the Church. Ultimately, therefore, they were worshiping the Dragon, and for this reason Jesus Himself called their worship assemblies synagogues of Satan (Rev. 2:9; 3:9).

Sixth, the Beast was given "authority to act for forty-two months" (13:5), "to make war with the saints and to overcome them" (13:7). The period of 42 months (three-and-one-half years—a broken seven) is a symbolic figure in prophetic language, signifying a time of sadness, when the enemies of God are in power, or when judgment is being poured out (taken from the period of drought between Elijah's first appearance and the defeat of Baal on Mount Carmel). Its prophetic usage is not primarily literal, although it is interesting that Nero's persecution of the Church did in fact last a full 42 months, from the middle of November 64 to the beginning of June 68.

Seventh, John provided his readers with a positive identification of the Beast: "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the Beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is 666" (13:18). There are several significant aspects of this strange number; we will examine only two of them here.

The first point is that the Old Testament has already told us about 666. It is found in the books of the Kings and the Chronicles, surely some of the most neglected books of the Bible. Interestingly, however, John takes many of his symbolic numbers from them (for one example, compare 1st Chron. 24:1-19 with Rev. 4:4). These historical writings tell us that Solomon (a Biblical type of both Christ and the Beast) received 666 talents of gold in one year, at the height of his power and glory (1st Kings 10:14; 2nd Chron. 9:13). That number marks both the high point of his reign and the beginning of his downfall; from then on, everything goes downhill into apostasy. One by one, Solomon breaks the three laws of godly kingship recorded in Deuteronomy 17:16-17: against multiplying gold (1st Kings 10:14-25), against multiplying horses (1st Kings 10: 26-29), and against multiplying wives (1st Kings 11:1-8). For the Hebrews, 666 was a fearful sign of apostasy, the mark of both a king and a State in the Dragon's image.

The second point to consider about the number 666 is this. In both Greek and Hebrew, each letter of the alphabet is also a numeral (see the table of numerals at the end of this chapter). Thus, the "number" of anyone's name could be computed by simply adding up the numerical value of its letters. Clearly, John expected that his contemporary readers were capable of using this method to discover the Beast's name—thus indicating, again, the contemporary message of Revelation; he did not expect them to figure out the name of some 20th-century official in a foreign government. At the same time, however, he tells them that it will not be as easy as they might think: it will require someone "who has understanding." For John did not give a number that could be worked out in Greek, which is what a Roman official scanning Revelation for subversive content would expect. The unexpected element in the computation was that it had to be worked out in Hebrew, a language which at least some members of the churches would know. His readers would have guessed by now that he was speaking of Nero, and those who understood Hebrew probably grasped it instantly. The numerical values of the Hebrew letters in Neron Kesar (Nero Caesar) are:







It is significant that all early Christian writers, even those who did not understand Hebrew and were therefore confused by the number 666, connected the Roman Empire, and especially Nero, with the Beast. There should be no reasonable doubt about this. John was writing to first-century Christians, warning them of things that were "shortly" to take place. They were engaged in the most crucial battle of history, against the Dragon and the evil Empire which he possessed. The purpose of the Revelation was to comfort the Church with the assurance that God was in control, so that even the awesome might of the Dragon and the Beast would not stand before the armies of Jesus Christ. The number of Man is six (Gen. 1:27, 31); Christ was wounded in His heel on the sixth day (Friday)—yet that is the day He crushed the Dragon's head. At his most powerful, John says, Nero is just a six, or a series of sixes; never a seven. His plans of world dominion will never be fulfilled, and the Church will overcome.

 

[Hidden Manna]

The Beast from the Land

Just as the Beast from the sea was in the image of the Dragon, so we see another creature in Revelation 13 who is in the image of the Beast. John saw this one "coming up out of the Land" (13:11), arising from within Israel itself. In Revelation 19:20, we are told the identity of this Land Beast: he is "the False Prophet." As such, he represents what Jesus had foretold would take place in Israel's last days: "Many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many…. Many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many" (Matt. 24:5, 11). The rise of the false prophets paralleled that of the antichrists; but whereas the antichrists had apostatized into Judaism from within the Church, the false prophets were Jewish religious leaders who sought to seduce Christians from the outside.

It is important to remember that Judaism is not Old Testament religion, but rather a rejection of the Biblical faith altogether in favor of the Pharisaical, Talmudic heresy. Like Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Unification Church, and other cults, it claims to be based on the Bible; but its actual authority comes from the traditions of men. Jesus was quite clear: Judaism denies Christ because it denies Moses. Orthodox Christianity alone is the true continuation and fulfillment of Old Testament religion (see Matt. 5:17-20; 15:1-9; Mark 7:1-13; Luke 16:29-31; John 5:45-47; 8:42-47).

The Jewish false prophets had the appearance of a lamb (Rev. 13:11), as Jesus had warned (Matt. 7:15); but they "spoke as a Dragon" (Rev. 13:11). How does the Dragon speak? He uses deceptive, subtle, seductive speech to draw God's people away from the faith and into a trap (Gen. 3:1-6, 13; 2nd Cor. 11:3; Rev. 12:9); furthermore, he is a liar, a slanderer, and a blasphemer (John 8:44; Rev. 12:10). The Book of Acts records numerous examples of Draconian false witness by the Jews against Christians, a major problem for the early Church (Acts 6:9-15; 13:10; 14:2-5; 17:5-8; 18:6, 12-13; 19:9; 21:27-36; 24:1-9; 25:2-3, 7).

The Jewish leaders, symbolized by this Beast from the Land, joined forces with the Beast of Rome in an attempt to destroy the Church (Acts 4:24-28; 12:1-3; 13:8; 14:5; 17:5-8; 18:12-13; 21:11; 24:1-9; 25:2-3, 9, 24). They led Israel in worship of the Emperor (Rev. 13:12); and, in the service of apostasy, the false prophets even performed miracles (Rev. 13:13-15). Jesus had warned that "false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, the very elect" (Matt. 24:24). Again, Acts records instances of miracle-working Jewish false prophets, including the fact that, as Jesus had foretold (Matt. 7:22-23), some of them even used His name in their incantations (Acts 13:6-11; 19:13-16).

The Jewish leaders enforced submission to the Emperor. Indeed, their charge against Christ Himself was that He was a rival to the all-embracing authority of Caesar (John 19:12-15). Similarly, they organized economic boycotts against those who refused to submit to Caesar as Lord, going so far as to put them to death (Rev. 13:15-17). The Book of Acts is studded with incidents of organized Jewish persecution of the Church (Acts 4:1-3, 15-18; 5:17-18, 27-33, 40; 7:51-60; 9:23, 29; 13:45-50; 14:2-5; 17:5-8, 13; 18:17; 20:3; 22:22-23; 23:12, 20-21; 24:27; 26:21; 28:17-29; cf. 1st Thess. 2:14-16).

The New Testament gives abundant testimony of this fact. The Jewish hierarchy was involved in a massive, organized attempt to destroy the Church by both deceit and persecution. In pursuit of this diabolical goal, they united in a conspiracy with the Roman government against Christianity. Some of them were able to perform miracles in the service of Satan. And this is exactly what is told us of the Beast from the Land. The False Prophet of Revelation was none other than the leadership of apostate Israel, who rejected Christ and worshiped the Beast.

There is an interesting reversal of imagery in the text. The Book of Job has prepared us for John's prophecy, for it too tells us of a Land Beast (Behemoth, Job 40:15-24) and a Sea Beast (Leviathan, Job 41:1-34). But John's visions expand on Job's descriptions of these dinosaurs, and the order of their appearance is reversed. First we see Satan as the Dragon, the true Leviathan (Rev. 12); then comes the Sea Beast, who is in the Dragon's image (Rev. 13:1); finally, trailing behind and serving them, comes the Land Beast, in the image of the Sea Beast. By thus showing the Beasts appearing in reverse order, John underscores his point: Israel, which was to have been a kingdom of priests to the nations of the world, has surrendered its position of priority to Leviathan. Instead of placing a godly imprint upon every culture and society, Israel has been remade into the image of the pagan, antichristian State. Abraham's children have become the seed of the Dragon (John 8:37-44).

During three years of ministry in Ephesus, the Apostle Paul continually suffered persecution because of "the plots of the Jews" (Acts 20:19); in describing his conflicts with them, he called them "wild beasts" (1st Cor. 15:32). The Jewish Beast was the early Church's most deceptive and dangerous enemy, and Paul strenuously warned the Church about these Judaistic seducers:




For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach, for the sake of sordid gain. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." This testimony is true. For this cause reprove them severely that they may be sound in the faith, not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient, and worthless for any good deed (***. 1:10-16).

 

[Hidden Manna]

The Fifth Beast from Daniel 7

Clay is often used to describe Israel in the scriptures. He is the potter they were the clay, etc. Iron would be descriptive of the strength and brute force of Rome. As you said, Rome and the Jews were in bed with each other, both against the church thus the mixture that would not mix.

Rome at that time was divided into ten nation/states at this time ruled over by ten rulers (kings). This could account for the number ten.

If we look at the last seven years before AD 70 we see Nero’s persecution against the church combined with the Jewish persecution. Nero committed suicide, which led to Roman civil war. Nation did rise against nation as factions vied for power. It was so bad that many thought Rome was dead.

Moreover, when Rome surrounded Jerusalem, since Rome ruled the known world and its armies were made up of soldiers from many nations, it literally would be the nations of the earth coming against Jerusalem. Plus, Jerusalem was actually surrounded by different armies four times in the years leading up towards the end.

The difficult part of this interpretation is the beast being thrown in the lake of fire in Revelation 19. One possibility here is that the beast represents Nero’s Rome—the Rome that persecuted the church. Nero did fall and with his demise came of the end of Rome’s persecution of the church. What rose in its place was Vespasian’s Rome which became the persecutor of apostate Israel.

NERO DEMANDED WORSHIP: Rev 13:5-8. Inscriptions have been found in Ephesus in which Nero is called "Almighty God" and "Savior." He and Caligula "abandoned all reserve" in promoting emperor worship - they were the only two who demanded divine honors while still alive. Nero claimed to be Apollo.


The Beast that came out of the earth in Revelation 13 was also the clay apostate Israel. Clay comes from out of the earth in a literal way and John probably used this to show the connection to the land of Israel from Daniel.

 

[Hidden Manna]

The Two Witnesses of Revelation
By Stephen Smith

We can all agree that there is nothing in the Apocalypse, nor in any of John’s other writings, that can’t be found elsewhere in Scripture. All of the imagery is a compilation of threads of prophecies from the Old Covenant, woven together into a new garment. It all looks very familiar, even if there are some slight variations here and there.

And in that day the Lord GOD of hosts called for weeping and for mourning, for baldness and for girding with sackcloth (Isaiah 22:12)

O daughter of my people, dress in sackcloth and roll about in ashes! Make mourning as for an only son, most bitter lamentation; for the plunderer will suddenly come upon us (Jeremiah 6:26).
The elders of the daughter of Zion sit on the ground and keep silence; they throw dust on their heads and gird themselves with sackcloth. The virgins of Jerusalem bow their heads to the ground (Lamentations 2:10).

The thread of judgment on Israel, found in the Old Covenant, is woven together in the Apocalypse so that it is applicable to John’s day, but the same kind of destruction is in view. The symbolism of sackcloth refers to the intense grief of the recipients of such judgment and is found in the New Covenant, as well. To continue:
One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established (Deuteronomy 19:15).

“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “and My servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior. I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, and there was no foreign god among you; therefore you are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “that I am God. Indeed before the day was, I am He; and there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?” (Isaiah 43:10-13)

Israel was the witness to the fact of God’s power and the works that He had done, since He had delivered them from Egypt with “a mighty hand.”

The House of Judah was composed of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin (I Kings 12:21; II Chronicles 11:12); the tribe of Levi also eventually sided with the House of Judah, having been rejected as priests by the rulers of the House of Israel (II Chronicles 11:13-14).

The ten tribes (I Kings 11:31, 35) which composed the House of Israel were the tribes of Ephraim, Manasseh, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Simeon, Issachar, Zebulun, and Dan. Those ten northern tribes were led by the tribe of Ephraim, which was given Israel’s blessing on his deathbed (Genesis 48:14-22).

Israel, as a two-kingdom nation is in view in the Book of Revelation. The simile extends further, when certain symbolic images, taken from the Old Covenant, are described.
These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands standing before the God of the earth (Revelation 11:4).

The two witnesses are symbolically called “two olive trees” and also “two lamp stands.” The prophecies of Jeremiah and Zechariah are applicable here:

The Lord called your name, Green Olive Tree, lovely and of good fruit. With the noise of a great tumult He has kindled fire on it, and its branches are broken. For YHWH SABAOTH, who planted you, has pronounced doom against you for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke Me to anger in offering incense to Baal (Jeremiah 11:16-17).

And I further answered and said to him, “What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?” Then he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” So he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.” (Zechariah 4:12-14)

So, there is a clear connection between Israel/Judah and the two witnesses.

Hosea prophesied many years before the House of Israel fell to the Assyrians (circa 721 B.C.E.). While he wrote to the House of Judah and the House of Israel in his prophecies, he primarily directed his message to the House of Israel, or Ephraim.
Illustrating the House of Israel’s rebellion, the Lord God commanded Hosea to marry a temple prostitute (Hosea 1:2). Note that there were no “street walkers” in the ancient world. Every temple of Baal or any “high place” of Ashtoreth employed prostitutes as priestesses. The prostitute bore three children and God told Hosea to name them symbolically. The children were named Jezreel (“God sows”), Lo-Ruhamah (“no mercy”), and Lo-Ammi (“no people”). The three names described God’s punishment on the Tribes of Israel, as He explained to Hosea.

Jezreel represented God’s sowing of the House of Israel among the pagan nations of the earth after being carried away into captivity by the Assyrians (Hosea 8:8; Zechariah 10:7-10). The name, Lo-Ruhamah meant that God would no longer have mercy upon the House of Israel and He sent the Assyrians to take them captive because of their sins (Hosea 1:6). Lo-Ammi illustrated the loss of national identity that Israel experienced. After they were conquered, the Diaspora lost the knowledge of who they were. They eventually came to view themselves as “gentiles.”
Romans chapter eleven identifies Judah and Israel as “natural” and “wild,” signifying their dissection and their dissimilar experiences. Judah was domestic and Israel had become feral.

And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree (Romans 11:17a).

For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob” (Romans 11:24-26).
So, Paul is following right along with John and the Old Covenant prophets who identified Israel and Judah with the Jews and gentiles.

The “natural” olive tree depicts the House of Judah, upon which the early Assembly (Greek: EKKLESIA) was built, since Jesus had said, “salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22). Paul depicts the Jews who rejected the Messiah as branches broken off from the “natural root” because they did not believe.

God told Hosea that He was going to cut-off the House of Israel because of their sins (Hosea 1:6). However, He said that He would not divorce the House of Judah (Hosea 1:7), although their later sins were more despicable than those of Israel (Ezekiel 23:11). God punished them, but never “put them away.”

Paul understood that the Greeks and the uncircumcised that he was evangelizing were, in fact, descendants of the ten lost tribes.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was the Messiah. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness (I Corinthians 10:1-5).
Paul is writing to a group of former pagans (I Corinthians 12:2). Yet, in using the example of the Israelites that had come out of Egypt, he refers to them as “our fathers” (I Corinthians 10:1). And he didn’t mean “fathers” in a spiritual sense. Those who had rebelled against God in the desert are the ones in view, here, so Paul means that those rebels were the Corinthians’ physical fathers.
I do need to bring up a few more points about the Jews and gentiles, since I believe that the final analysis of the Two Witnesses will bear upon the concept.
And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope’s sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews (Acts 26:6).

Since the restoration had not been accomplished in Acts 26, then the “twelve tribes” he refers to must have included the scattered Israelites!

In the opening words of his letter, James addressed the body of believers, both Jews and “gentiles.”

James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes that are scattered abroad: Greetings (James 1:1).

Once more, the restoration of the Kingdom had not yet occurred, so there were no “twelve tribes” except in terms of the Diaspora who had forgotten they were even Jews and considered themselves to be no different than their neighbors. That’s one of the reasons Paul has such difficulty keeping them out of the pagan temples and practicing things that “were not seemly.”

Foreign people, not of Abraham’s lineage, have been included in the Assembly since the beginning (Exodus 12:38; Isaiah 56:3-8). God has always allowed “strangers” to become part of His chosen people. But, those who were called by God to the Messiah (John 6:44, 65) were physical Israelites, both from the House of Judah (the “natural” olive) and the House of Israel (the “wild” olive). Those two olive trees are the two witnesses of Revelation 11 and not Moses, Elijah or any other person – dead or alive at the time.

 

[Hidden Manna]

The problems with the traditional view of the mark of the beast.

The first thing one must understand about Revelation is that it is a book composed almost entirely of symbols that a first century Jew would have found immediately recognizable. These symbols were used before in such books as Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah.

When a “mark” is spoken of, it should bring to mind a previous reference to a mark, found in another place in the Old Testament. The “mark” received upon the right hand or the forehead, is a Jewish typological picture (as is virtually all of Revelation), not to a “physical” mark on a persons body, but to the fact that in Jewish thought form (which is where John was coming from).

But how did one, receive “the mark” and what did it mean in Jewish thought?

It means that those who “took the mark” willingly, on their “right hand” (the Jewish picture of action and power), did whatever they did willingly for Rome, and they acted in accordance with that ungodly religious system (Pantheism).

The “mark” on the foreheads, was referring to the fact that Rome and their ideologies/ religions etc, were controlling their “minds and thoughts” of those who willingly followed this mind set, like we see in (Luke 19:14) But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, “We will not have this man to reign over us.’

And in (John 19:15) But they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar!” And in (John 11:47-48) Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.” The original audience factor cannot be overlooked.

Every emperor represented the beast while in power, and, therefore, demanded allegiance (taking the mark, symbolically). Apostate Judaism enforced allegiance to Rome as John later stated: “We have no king but Caesar!” Those who did not bow to this evil alliance are those who, rather, received the ‘mark’ of the Spirit of Life.

It is a perfect picture of this action as seen above. in John. This is the biblical meaning of the “mark of the beast.” Those who “took the mark” in the foreheads, were referring to the fact that Rome and their ideologies/religions etc, were controlling the minds and thoughts of those who willingly followed this mind set. All the Jews understood this typological picture.

Since John was a Jew he used numerous Jewish allusions out of the Old Testament in his book of Revelation. John writes in Greek, he thinks in Hebrew, and the thought has naturally affected the vehicle of express.” The same language of John’s Revelation when a “mark” is spoken of, should bring to mind a previous reference to a “mark” found in Ezekiel 9:3-6. In that context, Jerusalem was also about to be besieged and destroyed (by the Babylonians). The Lord commanded an angel to place “a mark on the foreheads” of those that lamented the wickedness of the city. This angel is described as having “a writer’s inkhorn at his side” (9:3), with which he was to mark the righteous.

It is clear from the context that this was not to be taken literally, as if an angel needed to carry a pen around with him and an inkhorn in which to dip it. This was a figurative (symbolic) way of showing that there was a specific class of people within the doomed city that were being set apart for preservation (9:6).

In Revelation, a similar “mark” is placed on those whom God wishes to preserve (7:3, 14:1). A “mark” is also received by those loyal to the beast, one which sets them apart for destruction (14:9-11). The mark is an emblem of ownership (John 19:14-15.) When interpreting any book of the Bible, it is important to ascertain the audience to which it was originally directed.

First, in Revelation we have clear evidence that John is writing to particular, historic, individual churches that existed in his day. Revelation 1:4 provides a common salutation: “John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come.” In verse 11 he specifically names the seven churches to whom he speaks: “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.” We know these names to be those of historical cities containing literal churches existing in the first century.

Second, we learn that John wrote to those churches in order to be understood. The first sentence of John’s prophecy has become the title of the entire work. And from that title we are clearly told that his work was to be a “revelation.” The Greek word for “revelation” is apokalupsis, which means an “opening up, uncovering.” John intended his book to be an opening up of divine truth for his original audience. He wrote to reveal, not to conceal truth.

And we must allow Scripture to interpret itself whenever possible.
Daniel describes the four beasts (Babylon, Greece, Medo-Persia, and Rome) as the beasts of the sea: And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. (Daniel 7:3) It was during the time of this fourth empire that God’s eternal kingdom was to be established (Daniel 7:18,22,27).

By the way the mark of the beast was the mark of a certain individual (Rev. 13:18) not just the Roman Empire in general. The mark of the beast was to happen right before AD 70 The first “clue” for us to examine is Revelation 13:18, which says: “Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.”

We must remember that John is writing from the isle of Patmos, where he has been imprisoned. John wrote his message in “code” lest his captors understand his reference to the emperor. Instead of openly stating who the “Beast” was, he left the original audience a clue that every Hebrew could easily discern.

In ancient times, alphabets served a two-fold purpose. Letters functioned not only as phonetic symbols, but as numerals, as well. The Arabic numeral system, which we use today, was a later development.

Throughout the ancient world, we find the practice of using the numerical value of a name, as a sort of cryptogram.

The Hebrew spelling of the name Nero Caesar was NRWN QSR (represented here by English letters). The sum of these numbers, which match each Hebrew letter, add up precisely to 666 as follows:

N = 50 R = 200 W = 6 N =50 Q = 100 S = 60 R = 200

Is this a coincidence? Or was John sending a message to his readers, which they could have calculated with relative ease? Another interesting factor to consider is what is called the “textual variant.” If you consult a Bible with marginal references you will find something quite intriguing. Regarding Revelation 13:18, your reference may say something to the effect: “Some manuscripts read 616.” The fact is that the number 666 in some ancient manuscripts is actually changed to 616, but why? Was it changed by accident or intentionally? The numbers 666 and 616 are not even similar in appearance—whether spelled out in words or written in numerals. As textual scholars agree, it must be intentional by an early copyist.

John, a Jew, used a Hebrew spelling of Nero’s name in order to arrive at the number 666 with fits (John 19:15) The second major “clue” John gives us is found in Revelation 17:9-10, which declares: “Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.”

Most New Testament scholars recognize that the seven mountains represent the famous Seven Hills of Rome. The Seven Hills of Rome are mentioned time and again by both ancient pagan and Christian writers.

The ten horns, with the crowns, are in reference to the ten empirical provinces of Rome. In Revelation 13:1 John notes that he “saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads”. Revelation 17:10 specifically notes that the seven heads represent “seven kings.” Thus, the Beast is generically portrayed as a kingdom.

Who was this “sixth king”? Flavius Josephus, the Jewish historian of that period, clearly points out that Julius Caesar was the first emperor of Rome, and that he was followed in succession by Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius. The sixth was none other than Nero (see Antiquities, books 18 & 19). This is also confirmed by Roman historians, Suetonius (Lives of the Twelve Caesars) and Dio Cassius (Roman History V).

In addition, John states, “the other has not yet come” (the seventh), “and when he comes, he must remain a little while.” Following Nero came Galba, who reigned less than seven months.

Now here are my new questions. (1) Were in the book of Revelation does John say his mark of the beast was to take place pass the individual who was the sixth or seventh Caesar in his day?

(2) Where is the scripture were John says his mark was not a Jewish typological picture of the Jews in his day previous reference to a “mark” found in Ezekiel 9:3-6.
(3) John tell us the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.”

Who are these seven kings buy these names today? Julius Caesar was the first emperor of Rome and that he was followed in succession by Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius. The sixth was none other than Nero (see Antiquities, books 18 & 19). This is also confirmed by Roman historians, Suetonius (Lives of the Twelve Caesars) and Dio Cassius (Roman History V).

In addition, John states, “the other has not yet come” (the seventh), “and when he comes, he must remain a little while.” Following Nero came Galba, who reigned less than seven months.
Just who in our day are these seven kings buy these names?

 

[Hidden Manna]

(Taken from BibleGateway)

<H4>2 Thessalonians 2



1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(I bolded the part in 3)

I posted this below earlier so do not feel that I'm directing this post to you with the questions at the end. But if you feel like you can answer them then give it a try.

"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." (II Thessalonians 2:1-2. New American Standard)

A similar passage is found in II Timothy 2:16-18. What is so challenging about these verses to the futurist view? Please ask yourself the following question: If the day of the Lord is, as you and I have always been traditionally taught, a time ending, universe destroying event, with people literally coming out of their graves how in the world could the Thessalonians ever have been convinced, as they obviously were, that the day of the Lord had already come?

All they had to do when any one would suggest such an idea was say "Look around! Time marches on. Obviously, the day of the Lord has not come!" The same could be said of the passage in II Timothy. If the resurrection is when all the physical graves are opened, when Jesus bodily, visibly descends on a cloud with the audible sound of a trumpet: how could any one convince those at Ephesus that it had already happened? The point is, Paul did not challenge the teaching concerning the nature of the day. He only challenged the chronology.)

The following is a comparison of how various translations render II Thessalonians 2:2.

1. KJV — is at hand.
2. ASV — is just at hand.
3. New KJV — as though ...had come.
4. RSV — has come
5. NASB — has come
6. New English Bible — is already here
7. NIV — has already come
8. Amplified — has (already) arrived and is here
9. Living New Testament — has already begun
10. McCord's New Testament Translation — has come
11. Williams — is already here
12. Beck — has already come
13. Good News For Modern Man — has come
14. Lamsa — at hand
15. Jerusalem — has already arrived
16. Berkeley — had arrived
17. Today's English Version — has come
18. Twentieth Century NT — is come
19. Emphasized NT, Rotherham — hath set in
20. Godspeed — had already come

Now here are my next two questions to you.

1) Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints were he says their understanding of the nature of the day of the Lord was wrong. Obviously, they did not have the same traditional literal physical concepts of a grave opening time ending when Jesus bodily, visibly descends on a cloud like many today. Please show me just one scripture were Paul tells them their spiritual nature of that day is wrong.

2) Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints that says the day of the Lord was not to happen in the same generation. Obviously, they did not have the same traditional ideas that Christ's would return thousands of years away.

Scripture please just scripture.

Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints were he says their understanding of the nature of the day of the Lord was wrong.

Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints that says the day of the Lord was not to happen in the same generation.

As we have seen here these saints never had the concept of a second coming 2.000 years away from the first. I will be looking forward to seeing your scripture.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hidden Manna,
The seven kings are those kingdoms that have ruled the land of Israel since the indignation began, and the eighth is the last before Messiah returns to destroy all the wicked from the earth and to set up His earthly Sabbath Reign of the thousand years of Peace in this earth.

They have nothing to do with any other king at any other time in any other kingdom.

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Hidden Manna;
As we have seen here these saints never had the concept of a second coming 2.000 years away from the first. I will be looking forward to seeing your scripture.

If they had set dates they would have been sinning.
Jesus Christ specifically said that no man knows the times or the seasons that the Father has put in His own power -specifically in answer to the Apostles asking if He was at that time going to restore the kingdom to Israel.
Really, you should quit setting up a straw man to knock down that Jesus Christ never gave you the right to do, as it is in the Father's hand when He restores the kingdom to Israel, which Jesus taught us to pray for; Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven!

Maranatha! He is coming!

 

[bryanhilton]

Hidden Manna,
The seven kings are those kingdoms that have ruled the land of Israel since the indignation began, and the eighth is the last before Messiah returns to destroy all the wicked from the earth and to set up His earthly Sabbath Reign of the thousand years of Peace in this earth.

They have nothing to do with any other king at any other time in any other kingdom.

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


If they had set dates they would have been sinning.
Jesus Christ specifically said that no man knows the times or the seasons that the Father has put in His own power -specifically in answer to the Apostles asking if He was at that time going to restore the kingdom to Israel.
Really, you should quit setting up a straw man to knock down that Jesus Christ never gave you the right to do, as it is in the Father's hand when He restores the kingdom to Israel, which Jesus taught us to pray for; Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven!

Maranatha! He is coming!

I totally agree with you concerning Jesus is coming, but please be considerate of Hidden Manna, he has done his research and is our brother in Christ, and I know through our conversations God is using this for His glory because it has caused me to get into His Word and really study what I believe and why I believe it, it has caused a greater understanding of His great ways. Sometimes it takes a discussion to get people back in the Word and have a heart and head knowledge. I can now reference scripture refrences concerning the rapture where as before I would fumble through trying to find it.

 

[bryanhilton]

Now here are my next two questions to you. 1) Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints were he says their understanding of the nature of the day of the Lord was wrong. Obviously, they did not have the same traditional literal physical concepts of a grave opening time ending when Jesus bodily, visibly descends on a cloud like many today. Please show me just one scripture were Paul tells them their spiritual nature of that day is wrong. 2) Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints that says the day of the Lord was not to happen in the same generation. Obviously, they did not have the same traditional ideas that Christ's would return thousands of years away. Scripture please just scripture. Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints were he says their understanding of the nature of the day of the Lord was wrong. Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints that says the day of the Lord was not to happen in the same generation. As we have seen here these saints never had the concept of a second coming 2.000 years away from the first. I will be looking forward to seeing your scripture.

Manna, I am not sure what you are asking, can you clarify (in lamans terms so to speak ) BTW, I never noticed it, but your signature also refrences somewhat a rapture ("though he may die" NKJV, and from BibleGateway: "he who believes in Me will live even if he dies NASB" Notice MAY die and IF he dies . I believe God called Elijah (2 Kings 2:1) up to heaven, Jesus rose up to heaven (Luke 24:50) and John was caught up in Revelation 4:1. I have faith that Christ will call us (the church, believers in Christ) up before the tribulation. I feel that the 70 weeks in Daniel are for (thy people speaking of Daniels people), I feel the church is represented by the 24 elders in Revelation, I feel that the world is getting to a point where it will seek a one world leader, one world religion, one world monitary system, issuing in false peace, and that Christians will not be here to see the covenant made with Israel because of the rapture. I believe that the church is Christ's bride and He has gone to prepare a place for us, so that where He is we may be also and He will receive us unto Himself (John 14:2-4). I have faith and believe in this with all my heart. I will continue to look for His return in the clouds and will continue to pray that I as well as my fellow believers in Him "are accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass" (Luke 21:36). I have refrenced several places for scripture and would like to put the refrences here for the studying they have done:

members.aol.com/reinbeaux/prophecy/pre_trib.htm
tribforces.com/index.php
biblegateway.com
rbc.org/ds/q1201/

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I totally agree with you concerning Jesus is coming, but please be considerate of Hidden Manna, he has done his research and is our brother in Christ, and I know through our conversations God is using this for His glory because it has caused me to get into His Word and really study what I believe and why I believe it, it has caused a greater understanding of His great ways. Sometimes it takes a discussion to get people back in the Word and have a heart and head knowledge. I can now reference scripture refrences concerning the rapture where as before I would fumble through trying to find it.

I hope to be considerate of Hidden Manna as a person, but the doctrines that He espouses, no, I will not be considerate of.

He does post them from preterist sites, and He does paste them here for the purpose of overthrowing the faith of some. He has so stated that it is his purpose to destroy the teaching of the pre-trib, mid-trib- post trib - rapture, which appearing of the LORD [I fully believe is pre-trib, myself], is the hope of the Church.

I would love to think that Hidden Manna would really look at what he teaches and see that it is contradictory to the doctrines of Jesus Christ and the entire Word of God from Genesis to Revelation and as a false teaching, is spoken of harshly in the Word -very harshly!- but I do post the Words from the Word that do show them to be false teachings, and very destructive, for those who may be swayed by the false teaching and think that it has merit.

I did a google search on Hidden Manna's pasted posts and see that he is busy on numerous message boards trying to overthrow the faith of whoever will listen, and that many have responded to him wisely, from the Word, on many boards, but it is to no avail.
He is a prophet of preterism and that is his work, so he has stated.

Now, how does a Believer answer?

Preterism says that Jesus Christ is not in His human being body and that the resurrection is past. -Do you know how harshly those things are dealt with in the Word of God?

 

[Hidden Manna]

I hope to be considerate of Hidden Manna as a person, but the doctrines that He espouses, no, I will not be considerate of.

Like wise

He does post them from preterist sites, and He does paste them here for the purpose of overthrowing the faith of some. He has so stated that it is his purpose to destroy the teaching of the pre-trib, mid-trib- post trib - rapture, which appearing of the LORD [I fully believe is pre-trib, myself], is the hope of the Church.

Some of the stuff I post is from friends who posted them on other forums, not all, I write acrticals to and it is not my purpose of overthrowing the faith of some as you are falsely accusing me of.

My purpose is to share the preterist view with others and strenghten their faith in the Lord and what He has already done. Also to see people set free from the creedalist cradle that they are bound to because of the false hope that are in them because of denying what God has done in the past to fulfill what was a future expectation for the first century Church.

Your purpose is to destroy the truth that God has been faithful and He done as He promised by your futuristic view which makes God out to be a liar.

I would love to think that Hidden Manna would really look at what he teaches and see that it is contradictory to the doctrines of Jesus Christ and the entire Word of God from Genesis to Revelation and as a false teaching, is spoken of harshly in the Word -very harshly!- but I do post the Words from the Word that do show them to be false teachings, and very destructive, for those who may be swayed by the false teaching and think that it has merit.

Futurist seem to believe all preterist are nuts. Sometimes we have to show them we are not.

Edwards was highly influential in the Baptist life of America. He was the first historian of Baptists in America. Albert Henry Newman’s in his book (A History of the Baptist Church in the United States 1894). said Morgan Edwards certainly did bring “strange things” to the Baptist people in America in 1788.

Edwards believed that the “lake of fire brimstone was “on the moon”! Edwards was a literalist so far as the New Testament was concerned, but not as much as with the Old Testament. Edwards believed that Abraham looked for a real literal city. He acknowledged the Bible was the word of God, while not denying the textual difficulties.

Falwell told about 1,500 people at a conference in Kingsport, Tenn., on a Thursday that he believes the second coming of Christ would be within a years. That was 8 years ago.
And don’t forget the Y2K thing.

Jerry Falwell also distributed a packet on “The Y2K Time Bomb,” including a video, “A Christian’s Guide to the Millennium Bug,” advising people to be prepared for disaster. “Y2K is God’s instrument to shake this nation, to humble this nation,” Falwell said. “He may be preparing to confound our language, to jam our communications, scatter our efforts, and judge us for our sin and rebellion for going against his Lordship.”

Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, who have sold more than 10 million copies of their Left Behind series of books about the Apocalypse, prophesied global upheaval on Jan. 1, 2000. The Y2K bug could trigger “financial meltdown,” warned LaHaye, “making it possible for the Antichrist to dominate the world.”

From 1998-99, we had plenty of our Dispensational friends searching their Bibles for evidence of the “rapture” and the end of all things as the Year 2000 dawned. Many books, tapes, and videos were written, produced, recorded, and bought by millions of people, many of whom were convinced the end was at hand. The prophecy know-it-alls were wrong again.

Since September 11th, 2001, even more people are wondering about the end of all things, and Tim LaHaye’s popular “Left Behind” book series (the first volume of which was originally published in 1995) has profited immensely from both the Y2K hysteria and now from the awful terrorist attack of 9-11-01.

Indeed LaHaye and Jenkins’ book series have now sold over 35 million copies. That doesn’t include the motion picture adaptation of the Left Behind novel or the many other spin-offs, such as “Left Behind for kids,” the “Left Behind” board game, CD’s, DVD’s, etc.

Fear mongering about the end of the world and the return of Christ have made millions of dollars for men like LaHaye, Lindsey, Van Impe, Hagee, and Hunt, to name only a few.

But now that the evidence of the meltdown and world domination by an Antichrist did not happen what do Christian still do? Make these men richer by spending millions of dollars on their now carton books “Left Behind” series.

Back in the early 1970’s, prophecy author Hal Lindsey predicted the “Return of Christ” would occur in 1988, Hal Lindsey was wrong, but that has not stopped him from writing many more prophecy books and it has not stopped Christians and non-Christians from buying his books.

“Who is the antichrist?” is a question that rings through out the religious communities of today. There are all kinds of theories being taught concerning the personality, actions, and identity of this antichrist. We have heard it being proclaimed that the antichrist was Hitler, Stalin, Nikita Khrushchev, Moammar Kadhafi, Saddam Hussein, and the list goes on and on. Of course, these have proven to be wrong. Is it finally time for us to go back and find out what the Bible teaches? The answer is so simple and so easy but, because of our religious training, it is oh so hard to accept.

Those Christians who believe that we are drawing close to the last days are continually trying to identify both the beast and the antichrist. This game of “find the beast and identify the antichrist” has become the adult Christians’ version of the child’s game of pin the tail on the donkey. Every few years, the participants place blindfolds over their eyes, turn around six times, and march toward the wall.

Sometimes they march out the door and over a cliff, as was the case with Edgar C. Whisenant, whose best-selling two-part book announced in the summer of 1988 that Jesus would surely appear to rapture His church during Rosh Hashanah week in mid-September. Half the book was called On Borrowed Time. The other was more aptly titled, 88 Reasons why the Rapture is in 1988. I can think of one key argument why his book’s thesis was incorrect: no rapture so far, and it is now February, 1989. So much for all 88 arguments. The anti-Christian world got another great laugh at the expense of millions of fundamentalists who had bought and read his two-part book. The story of Mr. Whisenant’s book was front-page news briefly around the U.S. But Mr. Whisenant is now ancient history, one more forgotten laughingstock who brought reproach to the church of Jesus Christ while he piled up his press clippings.

This is the whole problem. The victims self-consciously forget the last self-proclaimed expert in Bible prophecy whose predictions did not come to pass. They never learn to recognize the next false prophet because they refuse to admit to themselves that they had been deceived. The game has been going on throughout the twentieth century, generation after generation,

God is not the author of confusion. (1 Corinthians 14:33) This is a foundational premise upon which all doctrine is established. It is not the character or the nature of God to have included in His Word any content that would create confusion, divisiveness, and/or ambivalence among the Church.

Nothing discredits the presentation and defense of the Christian faith and makes it more of a laughing stock in the eyes of the non-Christian world than the barrage of failed predictions, imminence speculations, and scare tactics of sincere Christians bound by our current irresponsible doctrine of the “end-times.”

I did a google search on Hidden Manna's pasted posts and see that he is busy on numerous message boards trying to overthrow the faith of whoever will listen, and that many have responded to him wisely, from the Word, on many boards, but it is to no avail.
He is a prophet of preterism and that is his work, so he has stated.

I am not a prophet, a prophet do not tell of things from the past as being fulfilled, he foretells the future which is what you are doing but falsely because you cannot see how God fulfilled them in the spiritual realm.

Besides that I believe that the five fold ministry ended in AD70 when the perfect covenant no longer had the old covwenant still vanishing away.

Preterism says that Jesus Christ is not in His human being body and that the resurrection is past. -Do you know how harshly those things are dealt with in the Word of God?

They WERE before there fulfillment in AD70, now the table has turned and God now looks upon your false teachings as something to be harshly dealt with, so if I were you I would do some serious soul searching especially after YOU have heard the truth.

It one thing for someone to seek what the truth is in a preterist view but it is another situation after they hear it and fight against what the Spirit of Truth has revealed to them. Fear God and His word, not man and his creeds

 

[Hidden Manna]

Manna, I am not sure what you are asking, can you clarify (in lamans terms so to speak )

It is simple, they thought the Day of the Lord had already come. There view of His coming had to be a spiritual coming in the glory of the Father.

How ever the temple still stood in the way because of the old system of covenantal laws which including animal sacrfices. That all ended in AD70 because the temple was destroyed and not one stone left upon each other as Jesus said would happen.

After AD70 it is okay to say that the Day of the Lord did in fact occur because it was a spiritual coming which they did expect before AD70.

A physical return was not expected in the first century because they knew the Kingdom of God would come un-observered.

If not all Paul would have had to said it is: look we are still here "according to now futuristic expectations". So what they expected in the nature of Christ return which was spiritual was right however the timing was wrong because the temple still stood and by that Paul knew scripture had not yet been fulfilled.

So now futurist throw this text of scripture up against Preterist and label us as hereitics and disfellowship us like Paul did before AD70.

Otherwise Preterist believe everything in the creeds, just not the timing of events and the physical nature of there fulfillment. Because of this many futurist are in serious trouble with God and when they do see Him after physical death they will have to give an account of every word spoken against us who really do believe in Jesus Christ and every word He has said.

 

[Hidden Manna]

I have faith that Christ will call us (the church, believers in Christ) up before the tribulation.

I feel that the 70 weeks in Daniel are for (thy people speaking of Daniels people), I feel the church is represented by the 24 elders in Revelation, I feel that the world is getting to a point where it will seek a one world leader, one world religion, one world monitary system, issuing in false peace, and that Christians will not be here to see the covenant made with Israel because of the rapture. I believe that the church is Christ's bride and He has gone to prepare a place for us, so that where He is we may be also and He will receive us unto Himself (John 14:2-4). I have faith and believe in this with all my heart. I will continue to look for His return in the clouds and will continue to pray that I as well as my fellow believers in Him "are accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass" (Luke 21:36). I have refrenced several places for scripture and would like to put the refrences here for the studying they have done:

members.aol.com/reinbeaux/prophecy/pre_trib.htm
tribforces.com/index.php
biblegateway.com
rbc.org/ds/q1201/

BTW, I never noticed it, but your signature also refrences somewhat a rapture ("though he may die" NKJV, and from BibleGateway: "he who believes in Me will live even if he dies NASB" Notice MAY die and IF he dies . I believe God called Elijah (2 Kings 2:1) up to heaven, Jesus rose up to heaven (Luke 24:50) and John was caught up in Revelation 4:1.

I believe that also

I have faith that Christ will call us (the church, believers in Christ) up before the tribulation.

Jerusalem’s Great Tribulation

There is no doubt at all that the destruction of the Jews in Jerusalem was the Great Tribulation come down from God. (Lamentations 4:9-12; Ezekiel 5:5-17; Luke 21:20-23) You might also point out that the Bible says those were the days of vengeance, that all things, which are written, may be fulfilled.

I am taking just several versions of the translations of the New Testament for this one verse from Luke 21:22, to indicate exactly what this verse does mean, as viewed by more that just one translator or group of translators.

Greek Interlinear: “for days of avenging these are, that may be accomplished all things that have been written.”

Today’s English Version: “For these are ‘The Days of Punishment,’ to make come true all that the Scripture say.”

Jerusalem Bible. “For this is the time of vengeance when all that scripture says must be fulfilled.”

Phillips Modern English: “For these are the days of vengeance, when all that the scripture have said will come true.”

New English Bible: “because this is the time of retribution, when all that stands written is to be be fulfilled.

Revised Standard Version: “for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.”

I could go on and on, but you can see the plain evident meaning of this verse. By the time Jerusalem was destroyed ALL scripture would be fulfilled ever that about the great tribulation in the Old Testament and New Testament.

Also Jesus had said, “I am come to send FIRE on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?” (Luke 12:49). This was not to be literal fire, but the fire of His wrath and justice, and a change of religious systems. In Lamentations 2:3 it says,.. he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire devoureth round about.” This too was the fire of God’s great tribulation upon the Jews.

You might also want to point out that the Jews in Hitler day were NOT the Jews who came against Christ and his church. Only the Jews in the first century fit that bill. And it was only upon them the great tribulation was to come. In fact Jesus said during the day of “abomination of desolation there will be great tribulation (such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time no, nor ever shall be) (Matthew 24:15-21)

It looks like our futurist brothers have a big, big problem. Every Christian scholars agrees the “abomination of desolation” were during the days leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. Well Jesus said (they were the days) of the great tribulation since the beginning of the world and ever again will there ever be.
So the Jews who died by the hands of Hitler were NOT in the great tribulation. The dispensationalists and others do wrong to make tribulation be a stated period of time in our future.

The Jewish world came tumbling down in A.D. 70. The Jewish nation was decimated. The outward symbols of the Old covenant, the ritualistic elements of the old religious system, the holy place (including the land, the city and the Temple) were completely destroyed.

Nothing like this had ever happened to the Jewish people. Their world had ended. And it took all of this to show to them how wrong they had been in what they had done to Jesus Christ and then to His followers.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Matthew 24:29) Note several things here also. First, Jesus is talking about the tribulation of “THOSE DAYS” (That is, of the very days during which the Jews were undergoing this terrible tribulation from A.D 67-70). “Those days” definitely determines the time in which is under discussion.

Which means of course, that He is not talking about some “tribulation” during a later course. Second, what He was talking about was to happen “IMMEDIATELY” after the tribulation of those days.” The word “immediately” is from the Greek word eutheos which means “at once, or soon, as soon as, forthwith, shortly, straight way.” There is another big problem. It certainly would not portray a time frame of over 2,000 years or so later.


Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Mat 10:36 And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own household.

These passages could not be a more accurate description of the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. One only has to read the Bible to see this is so. The book of Acts, as well as the epistles speak of intense persecution coming against the church.

At first the early believers faced two classes of enemies. They were the unbelieving Jews and the Judaizers. The unbelieving Jews rejected the Messiah outright. Unbelieving zealots such as Saul brought great tribulation to the church. The Judaizers embraced Christ at first, but said that it was necessary to keep the Old Covenant to be saved. Thus, they had one foot in the Old Covenant and one foot in the New. These two groups did everything from organizing boycotts against Christians who would not confess that Caesar was lord to killing them outright.

It was this divide between those who refused to leave the Old Covenant and those who embraced the New that caused son to turn against father etc. This fits the first century setting perfectly.

As the time of the destruction of Jerusalem approached persecution against the church intensified greatly. A third persecutor arose. Rome. Nero, in his insanity, declared that the Christians were responsible for a great fire the engulfed Rome, and made them enemies of the state. Nero had Christians murdered in the most horrible ways including having them fed to wild beasts, burned at the stake, and killed in gladiatorial contests.

So great was the onslaught against from these three persecutors that if the Jewish rebellion had not broken out, the church might have perished from the earth. Upon the death of Nero, Rome’s persecution against the church ended. Instead, the wrath of Rome came upon the very Jews that had persecuted the church.

Now, combine these things with Jesus’ statement that all these things would happen within a generation, and you must conclude that “the tribulation” had already occurred.

 

[Hidden Manna]

I feel that the 70 weeks in Daniel are for (thy people speaking of Daniels people), I feel the church is represented by the 24 elders in Revelation, I feel that the world is getting to a point where it will seek a one world leader, one world religion, one world monitary system, issuing in false peace, and that Christians will not be here to see the covenant made with Israel because of the rapture.

I feel that the 70 weeks in Daniel are for (thy people speaking of Daniels people), I feel the church is represented by the 24 elders in Revelation, I feel that the world is getting to a point where it will seek a one world leader, one world religion, one world monitary system, issuing in false peace, and that Christians will not be here to see the covenant made with Israel because of the rapture.

Two Preterist views on Daniel 9

There are basically two preterist views on Daniel nine. One puts a gap of a generation between the 69th and 70th weeks. The other has no gap. I believe that gapless theory was the interpretation of the majority of the church for eighteen centuries until dispensationalism came along.

Ok, I will try to explain the two preterist theories I have encountered concerning Daniel’s 70 weeks.
Noe/Stevens:
These folks have a gapless 70 weeks. They put the cross at the middle of the 70th week. Their reasoning comes from Daniel 9:27.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

Daniel 9:27 (NKJV)
What brings an end to the sacrifice is not the events in A.D. 66 but the crucifixion of Christ. I suppose the cross did end the need for sacrifice in God’s eyes, however, as you know, the daily sacrifices continued until A.D. 66 (Dan 12:11), and the total cessation of sacrifices did not occur until A.D. 70. So, from a certain perspective this theory is plausible.

Now, what about the week of “confirming the covenant? ” I know futurists interpret this as cutting or making a covenant with many people for only one week of years. However, most translations I have encountered use the word “confirm” not “make” here. The only translation I found that uses the phrase “he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week” is the NASB. However, the dispensational bias of this translation is a bit startling.

This leaves us with 3 _ years before the cross for confirming the covenant and 3 _ years after the cross for confirming the covenant. According to Noe this corresponds to the time when the Gospel of the kingdom (New Covenant) was preached solely to the Jews. This encompasses the ministry of Jesus and the 3 _ year period after until the gospel was freed to go to the gentiles.

Now, what about this mess with the Romans and the apostate and unbelieving Jews that preceded A.D. 70? Noe relegates this to Daniel’s “time of the end.” That is the 1,209- 1,335 days that Daniel speaks of in Daniel 12:11.


24 “Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. 26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.” (Daniel 9:24-27 NKJV)

Now, on to King’s timeline. Notice it begins with the decree to rebuild the temple and it ends with the destruction of the temple and the holy city.

King begins his timeline with the decree of Artaxerxes in 445 B.C. and ends the 69th week at the same point you do, the crucifixion of Christ. I believe this is the same as your timeline.

Then there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks albeit a small gap of less than 40 years.

Then “…the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” The premillennial view of the prince who is to come is that this is some sort of Antichrist who will appear in some future day. Yet, look back at verse 25, and you will see the “prince” clearly identified. It is the Lord Himself.

This passage says “the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Who were these people? Well, who were God’s people at the time of Daniel? It was the Jews. You might ask was it not Titus, the Roman general who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple? No, history records that vast majority of the destruction that came in this final time came at the hands of the Jews themselves. They desecrated the temple and killed each other in the madness of this final hour. Titus merely mopped up.

Verse 27 says that during this 70th week the prince will confirm (And the word here is not cut or make a covenant. This is simply not the covenantal language that probably would have been used here if an entirely new covenant had been made for a week of years.) a covenant with many.

How could this refer to the destruction and abominations that came during this time? Think about what was happening just before this time of the end. First the temple was still standing, the sacrifices and rituals were still being performed. To the unbelieving and apostate Jews this was a very great sign that they were right and the Christians were wrong. When the Law free gospel was preached, all they had to do was point to the Temple and say that the Law and thus the Old Covenant was still in effect. Moreover, the presence of the Temple gave them a feeling of invincibility. How could Rome prevail when God’s presence (as represented by the temple) is with us?

Second, just before this time many of the church leaders were taken out of the way. James, the leader of the church in Jerusalem was executed and Paul was imprisoned. The early church was not only facing the wrath of the Jews but also of Nero. What would you think God was saying by all this if you were a Jew at this time? You would think the New Covenant was a sham.

Then suddenly confirmation of the New Covenant and vindication for the early believers came in the most powerful way.

What then are the abominations that Daniel speaks of in verse 27? Did they happen? Absolutely! The Holy place was desecrated by Jewish zealots before Titus marched on Jerusalem. They desecrated the temple with murder and all sorts of blasphemy. In fact the High Priest Ananus was quoted as saying “certainly it would have been good for me to die before I had seen the house of God full of so many abominations.”

Moreover, the daily sacrifices in the Temple indeed ceased during this time just as prophesied.

These things did happen. Therefore, history itself is one of the strongest proofs of Preterism. You can’t argue with history.

Now, some say that the Temple will be rebuilt so all these things can happen again? Where is the logic in that?

Let me end by quoting Max King on the matter.

“The attempt of premillenarians to rebuild earthly Jerusalem and restore the animal sacrifice system and posit this as the fulfillment of Israel’s promised future contradicts every prophesy in the Old Testament and every eschatological scripture written in the New Testament, as well as the facts of history that confirm the complete fulfillment of all post-Pentecost futurism with in the time frame of the iron mixed with clay beast and the seventy weeks of Daniel.”

 

[Hidden Manna]

I believe that the church is Christ's bride and He has gone to prepare a place for us, so that where He is we may be also and He will receive us unto Himself (John 14:2-4). I have faith and believe in this with all my heart. I will continue to look for His return in the clouds and will continue to pray that I as well as my fellow believers in Him "are accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass" (Luke 21:36). I have refrenced several places for scripture and would like to put the refrences here for the studying they have done:

members.aol.com/reinbeaux/prophecy/pre_trib.htm
tribforces.com/index.php
biblegateway.com
rbc.org/ds/q1201/

Second Appearing

When we look at the pattern of the Old Covenant system concerning the Priesthood service in the tabernacle of Moses, it becomes clear how Jesus would have fulfilled all things during the time of that Generation.

The high priest did not have to wait 2000 years to come out of the Holy of Holies on the Day of Judgment “Atonement”. If he did not come out within a short period of time there would not have been any salvation for Israel, and the High Priest would have been struck dead.

During that time of waiting for Jesus to appear the second time the early church was saved by faith. They looked forward to their salvation even though they were saved by faith through grace, but their faith was in something still hoped for “second appearing”.


Hebrews 9:28 is generally one of the first verses offered as proof there is to be a yet future return of Jesus. Let us notice a few things about the text.

The inspired writer says in verse 26 Jesus had appeared “once” to put away sin by sacrificing himself. The Greek word translated once is “hapax” and normally means “once for all time,” see Jude 3, I Peter 3:18. The writer then says Jesus “shall appear the second time unto salvation,” vs. 28.

In Luke 21 Jesus spoke of Jerusalem’s coming destruction: “then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory” vs. 27. He said “when these things come to pass then look up and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh” vs. 28. In verse 32 he said it would be in that generation.
The word “redemption” used here is the identical word used in Romans 3:24; 8:23; I Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 1:7,14, etc. to speak of the redemption of salvation.

With these few facts before us let us draw a conclusion.
One complete salvation DID NOT come at the cross according to the Apostles. And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
(Romans 13:11-12). who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 5)
These statement were made some years after the cross. And according to Peter their complete salvation was ready to be revealed in the last time of the old covenant.

Salvation was ratified or confirmed through His Cross [not at the Cross], and consummated in His Parousia. Think about it - if salvation was all in all secured at or on the Cross, then they had no need to further look for its completion.

Christ’s Coming in AD70 completed it. Again, salvation came through or via the Cross of Calvary, the Victory of the Cross had an out working to completion in that generation. This is NOT saying that there was some inherent deficiency in the Cross, NO, it is saying the process of salvation started and finished with the Coming of God in Christ - His First and Second comings being the book-ends of Salvation - both encapsulating the Cross.
Hebrews 9:28 says Jesus would appear a second time, not many times, unto salvation. Jesus said he was going to return at the destruction of Jerusalem and this would be the redemption [salvation] of his Body. (Luke 21:20-28) He said it would be in that generation. (Luke 21:23) Therefore Jesus’ return in the destruction of Jerusalem, for the purpose of redemption, is the return of Hebrews 9:28.

The force of the word “second” as used here is the same as “once;” Christ would not appear again and again. When did our High Priest come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people? This question seems to be ignored by many Christians today. It is of vital importance, however, because unless our High Priest appears out side of Holy of Holies who can be saved? The Bible explains and interprets itself.

The example is set in the Old Testament. Every year on the Day of Atonement the high priest would enter in to the Presence behind the veil in the Holiest of all. “Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.” (Leviticus 23:27,28)

The High Priest must come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people so they know the blood of the sacrifice atoned for their sins. If the High Priest does not appear the people have no assurance of salvation. No appearance, no forgiveness.
Since Christ’s coming in 70 was the coming for redemption, and since he was to return only once for salvation per Hebrews 9:28, then Christ’s return in 70 was the final coming of Christ.
This conclusion is corroborated in Hebrews 10:33-39. The writer addresses Christ’s coming in judgment and salvation: “For yet in a very little while, the Coming One will come and he will not delay.” [Tragically, most of God’s people insist he HAS DELAYED! which makes him a false prophet

The Bible has a standard of determining the validity of a prophet! It is Jehovah himself that gave the criteria for determining whether a prophet was true or false; if a prophet’s prediction did not come true he was a false prophet, Deuteronomy 18:15ff. If God does not keep the WHEN part of his promises, he has not kept his promise!

In the margin of your Bible, beside Hebrews 9:28, write Luke 21:28 and Hebrews 10:33-39. These verses give divine commentary on Hebrews 9:28.

Upon what basis can anyone postulate a future coming of Christ? He promised to come [once] again for salvation. He said when it would be; and he kept his word. It is something to ponder.


Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

Verse 11 says, “...shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.” How exactly did Christ “go into heaven?” Verse 9 says, “...a cloud received him out of their sight.”

Now compare these.
Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 26:64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Isa 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

God coming with clouds of glory is a recurring theme throughout Scripture.

Matthew 16:27
“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Being Caught Up

The modern concept that physical human bodies had to be transformed into the likeness of Christ is not consistent with scripture. The first century saints were indeed transformed in the likeness of Christ in their physical bodies.

In Romans 6:1-11 the apostle demonstrates how in baptism the Romans had died with Christ, vs. 3, and had been raised with him, vs. 4. This patently cannot refer to a physical body, and resurrection. But notice verse 5: "If we have been planted with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection."

Is the likeness of his death a physical likeness? If so, Paul and the other had died physically. But if it be admitted that this refers to a spiritual likeness how does this impact verse 5? Are we to see that in baptism there is a spiritual likeness to the death of Jesus but in resurrection there will be a physical imitation of his resurrection? Who changed Paul's hermeneutic here? Our Modern interpreters, not Paul, change the nature of the discussion.

For Paul, the "likeness" was the same in both death and life. In verse 8 the apostle says "if we died with Christ, we believe we shall also live with him." Here Paul is talking to people still living in physical bodies yet he says they had died with Christ. The coming life was of the same nature as the death; but the death was not physical, therefore the coming life was not physical. . Paul has not changed subjects; he is still focused on his singular desire to be in the "likeness of Christ.

In order to understand what Paul is saying we must see how Paul talks in terms of covenants. Colossians 3:1 is of the same discussion. Paul said the Colossians had died with Christ and their lives were hidden. Was that a physical death NO.

The New Testament writers likened life under the Old Covenant to death, because all those under the Law were under the curse, Gal. 3:10f. We must see things the way Paul was teaching the covenant change over.

The futurist view just does not make sense when you look at it in the context of the entire New Testament. The typical futurist takes scripture out of context not only of other scripture, but of its cultural and historical context. For example, they say that being transformed to His likeness has to do with the physical body. Yet, the writers of the New Testament said this transformation was already in progress in Paul’s day.

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Cor. 3:18 (NKJV)

If we take the futurist interpretation to heart this must mean that their physical bodies were changing. Maybe they could walk half way through a wall!

We see similar problems everywhere in the New Testament. For example, the early church was exhorted by Paul to put on the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 13:14). What were they doing? Were they literally putting on His glorified body?

Many passages in Romans create severe problems for the futurist.

Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Rom. 6:6

The body of sin had already been done away with. I guess that means that the first century Christians had no physical bodies! And the list goes on….

Clouds are most often symbolic of the Lord’s presence or if the Lord comes on the clouds, it denotes coming in judgment. Moreover, the word “air” in I Thes. 4 does not mean the air way up there. It means the air in the lungs or the immediate vicinity. Why do you suppose Paul would use this word if he had literal clouds in mind?

Verse 17 of I Thes. 4 is the crux of the matter. “And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” Are we not now with the Lord now that the fullness of the New Covenant is here? The way into the fullness of God’s presence awaited the destruction of the Old Covenant world and the Parousia (Heb 9:8). Now that it has occurred, we will always be with the Lord. Thus Jesus words in John eight ring true.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

As far as Ephesians two is concerned, I think we can look at the state of the first century church in light of their union with Christ. What was past concerning Christ at the time? He had died, and the early believers had died with Him. He was raised and seated in a position above all rule and authority and power. He was reigning over what He would put an end to at the Parousia. Ephesians one and two are a picture of the church in her reigning state at that time. Yet, the scriptures also say that when Christ was revealed they too would be revealed with Him in glory. In other words, their full and final victory awaited the Lord’s appearing.

Many preterists believe that the words “no more sea” in Revelation 21 speak of the loss of distinction between Jew and Gentile that the new covenant brought. The sea is thought to speak of the Gentile nations and the land the Jews.