Was God's Kingdom already established in 70 AD ? - Preterism views

[Hidden Manna]

We would observe that there are a host of scholars and students that advocate the early date of Revelation because of all the External Evidence. Does the Lord give clues to the subject matter and the time of writing the book of Revelation? We believe He does.

Students of Revelation search the book for clues to the time of writing. The texts within the book appear to identify a specific time period.

A Jewish problem was present in the church at Smyrna (2:9) and in the church at Philadelphia (3:9), which makes an early date more consistent.

The temple is also present in Rev 11, which places the writing before 70 AD. There has not been a temple since 70 AD. That should give us some places to start looking were the Bible says these are to be fulfilled;



Here is just one example. “Some will probably be wondering at this point about the reference in Rev. 1:7 to “every eye” seeing Him and how this fits in with this interpretation. It should be noted that the word for “see” is often used not of sight, but of perception. As Paul wrote to the Ephesians, “May the eyes of your understanding be enlightened” (Eph. 1:18).”

But how was this verse fulfilled? Consider who the scriptures says would see the coming. To do that, we must keep in mind this simple rule of interpreting the Bible: let Scripture interpret Scripture.

John wrote that this was the “revelation (or revealing) of Jesus Christ” (verse 1) who was coming “with the clouds, and every eye will see Him and those who pierced Him, and all the tribes of the earth (or land) will wail due to Him. Yes, Amen” (verse 7) . This is the main purpose of Revelation. The revealing of Jesus to the “tribes of the earth (or land).” Now, we must identify, from Scripture, who those “tribes” were. We can do that quite easily by looking at Zechariah 12:10-14.

And I will pour out on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and prayers. And they (i.e., the inhabitants of Jerusalem) shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for Him. As one mourns for an only son, and will be bitter over Him like the bitterness over the firstborn. In that day (i.e., when they look on Him whom they had pierced) the mourning in Jerusalem will be great, like the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, families by families alone; the family of the house of David alone, and their wives alone; the family of Nathan alone, and their wives alone; the family of the house of Levi alone, and their wives alone; the family of Shimei alone, and their wives alone; all the families who are left, family by family alone, and their wives alone.

Obviously, this is the foundation for John’ “every eye will see Him and those who pierced Him, and all the tribes of the earth (or land)will wail due to Him.” The Hebrew word for “family” is mishpachah and it means “family; by extension a tribe or people.” So, in essence, Zechariah was saying that the “tribes of the land” would mourn for Him whom they had pierced. Who were those “tribes?” “The inhabitants of Jerusalem.” This also helps us identify the “earth” in Revelation 1:7. According to Zechariah, the “earth” is the land of Palestine, specifically, Jerusalem. Also, it is those tribes, i.e., the nation of Israel, who would “look on Me whom they had pierced.” And because of that, “the mourning in Jerusalem” would be great. With all of this information, we can see that the “tribes of the earth” in Revelation 1:7 are the nation of Israel. The “earth” is Palestine. The land that would mourn is Jerusalem.

In the Greek word “earth” is translated only 65 % of the time when it appears outside Revelation. However, The word is translated 97% of the time “earth in the book of Revelation. This makes many passages appear to be world-wide when the context indicates a localized action or condition. John used the term “earth” 95% of the time in Revelation to indicate the land of Palestine.
The Greek words is better translated “land.” its definition is given by various Greek Lexicons as land, earth, soil, or dirt. This word does not have a “planet” meaning as does out “term “earth.”
The blood flowing as high as the horses’ bridles would portray the gravity of judgment (Revelation 14:20). The distance of 1600 stadia (about 180 miles) just happens to be the approximate length of the land of Palestine.

So, the main purpose of Revelation would be to reveal Jesus the nation of Israel. The place of this revealing would be Jerusalem. Lastly, this revealing would be to those who pierced Him, i.e., the Jews. This is not a general reference to the Jewish nation as some commentators state, but to Christ’s contemporary generation. That generation was destroyed in AD 70. by the Roman Legions. Therefore, the book of Revelation must have been written before that event.

I believe the reason why the disciples used the word earth or land is because that is the place were God always promised them. Remember God’s promise to Abraham. The Jews were always identified with the land. If they were in the land they were blessed. When they were out of the promise land to God they were as a nation dead.

In order to answer this question lets look at life for the Jews under the Old covenant.

To be dead, as used in the Bible, can mean different things. It can mean to be dead physically; it can mean to be dead spiritually; or it can have yet another meaning. It is the last interpretation of ‘death’ that will be our subject of study. However it takes some spiritual maturity to be able to answer that challenge. Let’s look at a passage of Scripture that gives us a feeling for this third definition of death.

Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!’ Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves. I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it,” says the LORD.’” (Ezekiel 37:11-14)

During the Babylonian captivity Israel was cut off from her homeland. They spent seventy years in another country. While Israel was cut off from the Promised Land, she was in the sight of God, as dead! All these Jews were alive physically, but as the Lord showed Ezekiel, they were a valley of dry bones in a grave nationally.

God in restoring His people to their own land uses the figure of graves opening and His people coming forth in national resurrection. Read again the passage form Ezekiel.
This third meaning of death (national Jews cut off from the promised land),

 

[Hidden Manna]

Ezekiel’s Bone Yard

Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!’ Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:

“Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves. I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it,” says the LORD.’” (Ezekiel 37:11-14)

During the Babylonian captivity Israel was cut off from her homeland. They spent seventy years in another country. (Here’s the point.) Israel was cut off from the Promised Land was, in the sight of God, as dead! All these Jews were alive physically, but as the Lord showed Ezekiel they were in a valley of dry bones and in a grave nationally.

God in restoring His people to their own land uses the figure of graves opening and His people coming forth in national resurrection.

Reader if you now understand this second meaning of death (national Jews cut off from the promised land), then you possess a valuable tool in understanding mans separated from God in (Genesis 3:23-24). Man was cut off from the tree of life and no longer in the presence of God. Man was cut off from God, just like Israel was cut off from their promise land while in Babylonian captivity. To God they were also separated from Him and in a grave nationally.

It was after Babylonian captivity that Jerusalem was re-built that futurist get confused with the day we are living in right now when it comes to the re-building of the temple. Most of the prophecies concerning the restoration of Israel by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc. had to do with the Herod’s temple. Not any future temple where a world ruler called the Antichrist will be. After 70 AD the only temple that scripture deals with is the body of the believer in which indwells Jesus Christ. Well the Father and Holy Spirit also. In Christ is the fullness of the Godhead bodily the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


Colossians 2
8Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

 

[bryanhilton]

I hope to be considerate of Hidden Manna as a person, but the doctrines that He espouses, no, I will not be considerate of.

He does post them from preterist sites, and He does paste them here for the purpose of overthrowing the faith of some. He has so stated that it is his purpose to destroy the teaching of the pre-trib, mid-trib- post trib - rapture, which appearing of the LORD [I fully believe is pre-trib, myself], is the hope of the Church.

I would love to think that Hidden Manna would really look at what he teaches and see that it is contradictory to the doctrines of Jesus Christ and the entire Word of God from Genesis to Revelation and as a false teaching, is spoken of harshly in the Word -very harshly!- but I do post the Words from the Word that do show them to be false teachings, and very destructive, for those who may be swayed by the false teaching and think that it has merit.

I did a google search on Hidden Manna's pasted posts and see that he is busy on numerous message boards trying to overthrow the faith of whoever will listen, and that many have responded to him wisely, from the Word, on many boards, but it is to no avail.
He is a prophet of preterism and that is his work, so he has stated.

Now, how does a Believer answer?

Preterism says that Jesus Christ is not in His human being body and that the resurrection is past. -Do you know how harshly those things are dealt with in the Word of God?

I agree with you that there will be a rapture of the church, then the 7 years of tribulation, then Christ comes back with the saints clothed in fine linen, then the millinial reign, satan will be loosed for a while for one last attempt on people's souls, and I look forward to Christ calling us up to be with Him forever! It gets closer every day! But I was just saying that this was a topic based on what a preterist view is. He has explained it and gave an opertuninty for people to really study and become firmly grounded in what they believe. I would say that I have matured in my knowledge by double checking what he posted and the Holy Spirit has given me knowledge about how God's Word never comes back void (Is. 55:11). Some people misinterpret scripture and I believe that God will use the verses delivered here to help others understand that time is short and Christ is going to come back and that the antchrist is going to come on the scene once we (the church) are gone. A great study to relate how the church is the bride of Jesus and how He has gone to prepare a place for us and will return to take us back to our new home (PRAISE GOD!!!), is to study a Jewish traditional wedding. Very interesting! BTW, read some info today on CNN under their technology section that relates to people implanting chips into their hands. Keep in mind Revelation 13:16, its getting very, very close. Keep looking up and praying for those not ready!

 

[Hidden Manna]

I agree with you that there will be a rapture of the church, then the 7 years of tribulation, then Christ comes back with the saints clothed in fine linen, then the millinial reign, satan will be loosed for a while for one last attempt on people's souls, and I look forward to Christ calling us up to be with Him forever! It gets closer every day! But I was just saying that this was a topic based on what a preterist view is. He has explained it and gave an opertuninty for people to really study and become firmly grounded in what they believe. I would say that I have matured in my knowledge by double checking what he posted and the Holy Spirit has given me knowledge about how God's Word never comes back void (Is. 55:11). Some people misinterpret scripture and I believe that God will use the verses delivered here to help others understand that time is short and Christ is going to come back and that the antchrist is going to come on the scene once we (the church) are gone. A great study to relate how the church is the bride of Jesus and how He has gone to prepare a place for us and will return to take us back to our new home (PRAISE GOD!!!), is to study a Jewish traditional wedding. Very interesting! BTW, read some info today on CNN under their technology section that relates to people implanting chips into their hands. Keep in mind Revelation 13:16, its getting very, very close. Keep looking up and praying for those not ready!

The Antichrist


There are volumes of books written on the Antichrist today, which has caused interpretation difficulties for many because of the precepts they have been traditionally taught to bring to the Bible. Because of those man made traditions the real identity of the Anti-Christ has been Hidden out of the Plain Sight of many Christians today. However that was NOT true of the saints in the first century.

The word “antichrist” is only used four times in the scriptures, all by the apostle John. Antichrist is a term used exclusively in two books of the New Testament: 1 John and 2 John.

Contrary to popular assumption the word “antichrist” does not appear in the book of the Daniel or Revelation. John is the only one who uses this term in his first two epistles, with a specific definition. Let us consider these verses. Will the real antichrist please stand up?

The Apostle John, in his letter is writing to those living in his current time and his present generation said, “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time” (I John 2:18). So what do we know from this passage? John specifically says that the antichrist has come (as had been prophesied). John’s first century readers knew this antichrist was coming. This movement was already present when John was writing and was made up of “many antichrists”. John uses their presence as proof that it was then already the last hour.



Secondly, The simplest and plainest sense of words and meaning tells us that John is saying that antichrist shall come, but that there are already many antichrists presently existing therefore, they (those back then, not “us” now) “know that it is the last time”.

This verse clearly indicates a period of time called “the last time” which certainly was present back then at the time of John’s writing. Obviously, it was not the last hour of physical earth for it has continued nearly 2000 years beyond John’s statement.

Thirdly, the antichrist is not one, but many. We see that these antichrists were contemporaries of John who were at work in the first century. These “antichrists” were former church members who had left the faith. John’s antichrist was of Christian origin. It was not a single individual. Maybe I’ve entered an alternate reality, but the last time I checked, man, his and he, and one were singular nouns, your on another alternate reality then what the Bible really says.

They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it may be shown that they all are not of us (1 John 2:19) The antichrists’ departure from the church was evidence that they did not truly belong to the church. Even so, they continued trying to lead believers astray (1 John 2:26).

Next we can see that the antichrists were recognizable. The discerning believer would be able to examine the teachings of the antichrists and distinguish truth from error. These antichrist denied that Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah (Anointed One) prophesied in the Old Testament and anticipated by the Jewish people. In denying this truth about the Son, an antichrist denied the Father as well. Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son (1 John 2:22). The people who followed this heresy were called “antichrists” (1 John 2:18, 2 John 7). Those who would have us believe that the antichrist is still yet to come must explain why John was teaching the first century church how to recognize it.

Next, John clearly states that the spirit of the antichrist “is already in the world” (1 John 4:3). These people were former church members who had gone out into the world spreading false teachings within the Church. For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist (2 John 1:7)

Finally, here comes some news that most Christians don’t take the time to find out for themselves. With the use of the original Greek words, antichrist we can clearly see that they were many in the first century. (It was not a single individual.). In the original languages, the letter (a) in the word antichrist is not capitalized. It was capitalized by the translators.

So before anyone today can tell us that the antichrist is a single individual that must first show from the original languages that the world antichrist was capitalized which it was not.

We cannot ignore John’s use of the word, antichrist with a small (a) because it supplies us with important information to the interpretation of his books.

We also cannot ignore the fact John clearly indicates a period of time called “the last time” was certainly present back then at the time of John’s writing. (I John 2:18)

We also cannot ignore the fact that these “antichrists” were former church members who had left the faith. (1 John 2:19)

We also cannot ignore the fact John taught the discerning believer in the (first century) to be able to examine the teachings of the antichrists and distinguish truth from error.

These antichrist denied that Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah (Anointed One) prophesied in the Old Testament and anticipated by the Jewish people. In denying this truth about the Son, an antichrist denied the Father as well. Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son (1 John 2:22).

Whereas, most believers are awaiting the events described in John’s book to find their fulfillment in the future, John clearly tells us that the prophecies were coming to pass within the time of his writing (I John 2:18).

The antichrist heresy was a system of belief opposed to orthodox Christianity .The term antichrist as used by John in his epistles is used to describe schismatics who are spreading false teachings within the Church.

It is clear from Paul’s writing that the Galatians were in danger of falling away back into the Old Covenant. Again we see they were writing of their time not ours. Christianity was then a new religion and people were in danger of returning back under the Old Covenant system. And Paul wrote as much if we tack the time to study it. Tell me , you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? (Galatians 4:21)

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law , or by believing what you heard?

Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort ? Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “ “The man who does these things will live by them.” (Galatians 3:1-12 NIV)

This leaves us with one conclusion. It is unbiblical to use the term ‘Antichrist’ for a present-day or future political ruler. The proper context is theological and pre-A. D. 70”

The actual historical evidence is that a falling away did occur. While many today ignore what the Bible says and are looking for a future “falling away,” and betrayal of each other notice the words of Paul. And who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes” (2 Timothy 1:15).

At my first defense no one supported me, but all deserted me; may it not be counted against them” (4:16). This sounds like Paul was betrayed and they fell away to me. This happened in John’s and Paul’s contemporary generation.

The problem is Christians don’t really read the Bible for themselves. They read the Bible through someone else’s precepts of what the Bible say. A good example of this is the verse 2 Thessalonians 2:3 which reads. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Second Thessalonians is perceived by many to be positive proof of a yet future, time ending, coming of the son of perdition however we must remember the context in which those words were spoken. 2 Thessalonians cannot be ignored in context. The Apostle Paul wrote that the coming (parousia) of the Lord would not take place until the rebellion occurs and the “man of sin” (KJV) son of perdition; (NKJV) or “man of lawlessness” (NIV) was revealed.

The most popular postponement tradition claims that this wicked one is some future “Antichrist” figure, who has yet to be revealed. For a number of scriptural and historical reasons, the identity of Paul’s “man of sin” should not be arbitrarily lifted out of its first century context.

1) Paul wrote during the time of a literal, standing, second Temple. He gave no hint that this event would occur centuries later in some other “rebuilt” temple. His first readers apparently expected this fulfillment in their lifetime. That’s why some feared that that “day of the Lord” had already occurred. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2)

2) The first century saints already knew the son of perditions identity. “Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way” Verses 5-7.

It was “already at work,” there and then, but something and/or someone was holding the “man of sin” back at the time Paul wrote this letter (circa A.D. 51 - 52). Whatever that was, Paul reminded his first readers that they already knew its/his identity. So Paul didn’t have to tell them. And he didn’t . Since they knew who or what it was, it could not possibly have been something or someone that would not exist for some nineteen or more centuries. The fact is this time indicator should answer the question of when.

In short, John’s son of perditions established himself in the Temple, the one standing when Paul wrote, and put himself above God, thereby taking the place of God in the Temple. All this happened, right then and there, and exactly as Paul had said the “man of sin” would do.

 

[Hidden Manna]

The Mystery of 1000 Year

“And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and cast him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more: until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time” (Rev 20:1-3).

A close reading of these verses makes it obvious that they contain two central thought - a binding of Satan and the loosing of Satan for a little time to deceive the nations. It is also obvious that John’s thought is conveyed through symbolism. Even those who insist on a literal one thousand year binding of Satan have to say that most of the other symbols are to be interpreted spiritually! They admit that the key, the abyss, the chain, the sealing, etc., are obviously figures of speech; they also agree that Satan is not literally a dragon and at the same time a serpent, but that John is describing him poetically.

While these folk insist on taking part of this chapter hyper-literally, they can see the incongruities involved in binding Satan, a spiritual being, with physical chains and keys. This is why they admit that parts of this section of Revelation are to receive a figurative interpretation.

The question arises here, as in all parts of the book of Revelation, as to just who gives us the right to decide that one word, of the verses is to be interpreted literally while the rest is symbolically? Who gives the millennialist the right to decide that one word is literal while the very next word is symbolic, then to ostracize another Christian for daring to suggest that both words might be symbolism?
To say that Satan is to be bound after Christ comes the second time, then released again, contradicts many clear passages of Scripture. Assuming this to be so, and assuming that one Scripture passage does not contradict another, let us search out clear teachings of the New Testament concerning a binding of Satan. It is to be noted that John nowhere fixes the time for this event. (Revelation 1:2; 22:7,10,12,20)

“I suppose that no one would insist that Satan is to be bound with a literal chain of iron or some other metal, for Satan is a spirit and material chains could not hold him captive for a moment. Binding always means the limitation of power, in some way. So Satan’s being bound does not mean that he was powerless to tempt people, (James 4:7) They had to resist the devil and put on the whole armor of God to stand against the wiles of the devil (Ephesians 6:11-12) He could still go about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, but in this particular respect he is a caged lion.”

John does not picture him as destroyed, or powerless but merely imprisoned. Many a prisoner has been known to operate from inside barred windows through henchmen on the outside. And many a dog, though bound, has bitten people who came within the confines of his chain. Satan is bound, but with a long chain. Our Lord certainly overcame him and pronounced sentence upon him (John 12:31); however, the sentence will not be completely executed until the Parousia (Revelation 20:10).

Satan’s power was within limitation in one particular respect especially, that of ability to deceive the nations. During the inter-adventual period the gospel is to be proclaimed to all nations, and Satan is powerless to prevent it. The way of salvation has been opened to all nations and there is nothing that Satan could do to block that way” When Jesus sent the Twelve on a preaching mission (Luke 9:1) he gave them power and authority over all demons. He also sent seventy disciples on a similar mission, and they returned rejoicing in the fact that even the, demons were subject unto them in His name (Luke 10:17).

Then it was that Jesus said to them that he beheld Satan fall from heaven. We take this as a reference to his defeat of Satan at the cross (see Rev 12:7-12). Our Lord went on to say to the seventy disciples, Behold, I have given you authority ... over all the power of the enemy (Luke 10:19). Christ brought the devil to nought, that is, He limited the devil’s power in such a way that all his efforts to stop the (first century church) amounted to nothing, and his power was definitely frustrated.

John, in Revelation 20:1-3, refers to only one facet of that limitation, that is, Satan’s power to deceive the nations by keeping them from hearing the gospel. Before Christ came, only the Jew (except for the rare instances when Gentile proselytes were circumcised and made partakers with Israel) was offered the plan of salvation. Thus Satan was able to deceive the nations (Gentiles) by keeping them from hearing the gospel and being saved. He had been able to do something that now he cannot! After Calvary, Satan’s power to do this was bound.

Our Lord then said: All authority bath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations (Matt 28:18,19).

All these things show that in the New Testament Christ claimed that in a very real sense he had bound Satan, and limited his power. In Revelation 20, one particular aspect of that binding is before us, namely, the limiting of Satan’s power to deceive the nations as he did before the coming of Christ..

Having said that Satan was bound, John went on to say that he would be released at the end of the millennium for a little time (Rev 20:3).

Now this also is in keeping with the clear teachings of the New Testament. (This loosing, I am starting to believe,) corresponds with the appearing of the man of sin referred to by the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. Paul’s statement, The mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way, corresponds perfectly with what we have said about the limiting of Satan’s present power.

This restrainer I am also starting to believe is taken to be the Holy Spirit. This also points up the fact that Satan is bound, having only such power as God grants him. Whenever God was ready, he removed the restrainer; that is, the Holy Spirit would be taken out of the way (2 Thess 2:7). Then, says Paul, the lawless one (man of sin) will be given full power to deceive them that perish (vs 1O)

Compare this teaching and order of events with John the Revelator’s teaching in Revelation 20. John says that after the millennium Satan, who has been chained during that period, will be loosed for a little time (vs. 3) and that he will then go about to deceive the nations. John says, in symbolic language (vs. 9), that fire from heaven will put down Satan and his followers.

A comparison of 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2 with Revelation 20 one cannot help but reveal that Paul and John both speak of the same events. And both passages agree entirely with many other clear passages of the Bible dealing with our Lord’s Parousia and events preceding it. So we see that the binding and loosing can only apply to the events before 70 AD.

And the term millennium. Are these literal years? Of course not. This is symbolic language and we cannot count out a literal 1,000 years. The figure 1,000 is used in the book of Revelation to indicate completeness. Insofar as the devil’s power to deceive was completely bound.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Meaning of Satan and the Devil
The Devil, whether you view him/it as a real being or just that which opposed God, presents a way other than Christ whether it be good or evil. John 8 is very telling in this matter.

37“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. (John 8:37-45)

It is interesting how Jesus frames what the Devil is all about here.

During the supper, the devil (diabolos) having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, {the son} of Simon, to betray Jesus. Looking at Greek word for devil (diabolos), we find that Thayer’s definition can be applied to a man.

Strong: 1228 diabolos (dee-ab’-ol-os); from 1225; a traducer; specially, Satan [compare 7854]: KJV—false accuser, devil, slanderer.

Thayer: 1228 diabolos-1) prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer, 2) metaphorically, applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him.

In Matt 26:14-16 and Mark 14:10-11 below, we find that the chief priests were willing to pay a bribe to Judas Iscariot to betray. I would speculate here that the devil mentioned in John 13:1-2 are the chief priests identified in Matt 26:14-16 and Mark 14:10-11as the chief priests fit Thayer’s definition of men who oppose the cause of God.

Then one of the twelve, named Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests, and said, “What are you willing to give me to deliver Him up to you?” And they weighed out to him thirty pieces of silver. And from then on he {began} looking for a good opportunity to betray Him. (Matt 26:14-16)

And Judas Iscariot, who was one of the twelve, went off to the chief priests, in order to betray Him to them. And they were glad when they heard {this,} and promised to give him money. And he {began} seeking how to betray Him at an opportune time. (Mark 14:10-11 NAS)

However, the “devil” of John 13:1-2 is often associated with “Satan” of John 13:27: 27 And after the morsel, Satan then entered into him (Judas - my emphasis). Jesus therefore said to him, “What you do, do quickly.”

Examining Strong’s and Thayer’s Greek definition for “Satan” listed below, we find that the Thayer’s definition for “satanas” is more consistent with the Old Testament understanding of the Hebrew word “satan” as “adversary”.

Strong: 4567 Satanas (sat-an-as’); of Aramaic origin corresponding to 4566 (with the definite affix); the accuser, i.e. the devil:

What about this passage in 1 John 3:
7Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

What is the nature of sin and righteousness in this passage? What is the nature of the works of the Devil and the Devil’s sin which was from the beginning? Personally, I don’t think this is talking about doing bad things verses good things. I think it has to do with the righteousness of God verses the righteousness of man. If we do not make this distinction many scriptures can become quite confusing.

Why were Cain’s works evil and Abel’s works righteous? Both offered a sacrifice. One was accepted and the other rejected. Cain (the first born, type of OC) gave from the produce of his fields. Abel (the younger, a type of the NC) gave the first born from his flock as an offering (perhaps a type of Christ, the firstborn who was given?). Abel’s offering which included the shedding of blood was acceptable. Cain’s was not. Perhaps this showed that the offering of Christ, the Lamb of God, was acceptable. No other offering would do.

In this we can see nature of the righteousness John speaks of and the works of the Devil as well. The righteousness here is the righteousness of God. The evil was that which was of the realm of the flesh or the realm of the potential of man both good and evil.

Here is where the rubber meets the road in a right understanding of what this sin is here. We all should know that Christians sin all the time. If we did not sin there would be no need for Christ to die for our sins.

What lie or sin did the devil tell from the beginning? “Ye shall be as God’s.” What was the lie told by the devil (diabolos), man the “adversary”. false accusers who were opposing the cause of God in the Old Testament?

Under the law you can be just as righteous as God. So what was the sin here? Was it robbing a gas station or stealing a car? No, the sin was, believing that practicing “your righteousness” under the law you could be as righteous as God.
We see these two examples all over the Bible. There is the spirit of the devil and those’s who work in the spirit of him. And there is the spirit of God and those who do the will of God and have the righteousness of God.

I can see angels and demons as figurative. Here in Matt.22:30 we have people as angels of God and then there is Judas who was as a devil.

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[22:30 NU-Text omits [of God.] ] in heaven.

In Heb.1:13 angels are considered ministering Spirits, when we preach the gospel we can be of a ministering Spirit or have a ministering Spirit working through us.

Hebrews 1
13But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?

14Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

Christ’s Description of the Pharisees:
Matthew 12:34 O offspring of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Even John the Baptist recognized this:
Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O offspring of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Since Christ said that these Pharisees were the offspring of snakes, and He also said that their father was the devil... The serpent is a familiar character in the Old Testament canon. Carrying its venom beneath its tongue, the serpent beguiled the woman in the garden. (Gen. 3:1-4) The serpent thence became a figure for sin and death, the ultimate enemy of man. Jesus called Judas Iscariot a “devil.” (John. 6:70)

In a similar manner, the high priests and elders of the Jews are probably in contemplation when it says that the “devil” put it into the heart of Judas to betray Christ for money. (John. 13:2)

The Greek term translated devil is diabolos, meaning an accuser, a slanderer. It is derived from the word diabolo, to accuse or malign. In the latter days, Paul said men would be “diaboloi” viz., “false accusers” (II Tim. 3:3; ***. 2:3) The Jews spread venomous lies against the church throughout the ancient world, seeking its destruction. For their slanders and accusations the Jews are described as the devil and his angels waging war with Christ and his disciples.

Jesus also said that the devil came to kill and destroy. Certainly there was enmity between the first-century Christians and the Pharisees. Of course all true believers throughout the Old Covenant, especially prophets, were hated and/or killed by the Pharisees. They killed through their words and through their actions:

Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

When they were removed in AD 70 they were crushed beneath the feet of the first century saints.

 

[Hidden Manna]

The Preterist 1000 years

The Preterist generally takes the position that the “Thousand Years” or Millennium is that 40 year transition period between 26 A.D (Christ’s ministry) and 66 A.D. (The beginning of the Jewish War). The Millennium is marked by the binding of Satan in Christ’s earthly ministry and consummated in the destruction of Jerusalem. This was that period when the Old Covenant was dying as the New Covenant was maturing. The New Covenant finally reached it’s fullness at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. when the Lord came in judgment and rewarded those faithful saints who were eagerly awaiting His Parousia (Matt. 16:27-28). This marks the passing away of the old “Heavens and Earth” (Rev. 21/Old Covenant) and the bringing in of the “New Heavens and Earth” (Rev.22/New Covenant).

The New Covenant is an everlasting covenant that will never end. Satan was defeated (Rom 16:20), death (spiritual) was destroyed (1 Cor. 15:26) and complete salvation accompanied Christ at his second coming (Hebrews 9:28).

The “Thousand Years” is to be understood as a perfect number of years rather than a quantitative amount of years. The “end” or “last days” marked the end of old covenant Israel or the “last days” of the sacrificial system and the beginning of the new covenant Church. The Bible speaks about the “time of the end” and NOT the “end of time”. There is a BIG difference.

You need to get a copy of Ed Stevens audio tape series concerning “The Thousand Years”. You will find that this was a very big topic amongst the Hebrew Rabbi of the first century. Ed documents this very well. In studying Midrash and the Mishnah you will find many first century Rabbi referring to this period as “The days of Messiah”. This was a BIG topic of the day. They called this period “The Thousand Years” because many Rabbi thought that it might be a literal 1000 years but no longer. Many though, believed that this was a 40 year period and reflected the 40 year wilderness wandering of Israel. So, it came to be known as “The Thousand Years” doctrine. A first century Jew has a much better grasp on these things than a 20th century western individual. The Hebrew culture has much symbolism when dealing with prophetic literature.

Satan bound & Destroyed

Satan’s power was within limitation in one particular respect especially, that of ability to deceive the nations. During the interadventual period the gospel is to be proclaimed to all nations, and Satan is powerless to prevent it. The way of salvation has been opened to all nations and there is nothing that Satan could do to block that way” When Jesus sent the Twelve on a preaching mission (Luke 9:1) he gave them power and authority over all demons. He also sent seventy disciples on a similar mission, and they returned rejoicing in the fact that even the, demons were subject unto them in His name (Luke 10:17).

Then it was that Jesus said to them that he beheld Satan fall from heaven. We take this as a reference to his defeat of Satan at the cross (see Rev 12:7-12). Our Lord went on to say to the seventy disciples, Behold, I have given you authority ... over all the power of the enemy (Luke 10:19). Christ brought the devil to nought, that is, He limited the devil’s power in such a way that all his efforts to stop the (first century church) amounted to nothing, and his power was definitely frustrated.

John, in Revelation 20:1-3, refers to only one facet of that limitation, that is, Satan’s power to deceive the nations by keeping them from hearing the gospel. Before Christ came, only the Jew (except for the rare instances when Gentile proselytes were circumcised and made partakers with Israel) was offered the plan of salvation. Thus Satan was able to deceive the nations (Gentiles) by keeping them from hearing the gospel and being saved. He had been able to do something that now he cannot! After Calvary, Satan’s power to do this was bound.

Our Lord then said: All authority has been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations (Matt 28:18,19).

All these things show that in the New Testament Christ claimed that in a very real sense he had bound Satan, and limited his power. In Revelation 20, one particular aspect of that binding is before us, namely, the limiting of Satan’s power to deceive the nations as he did before the coming of Christ..

Having said that Satan was bound, John went on to say that he would be released at the end of the millennium for a little time (Rev 20:3).

Now this also is in keeping with the clear teachings of the New Testament. (This loosing, I am starting to believe,) corresponds with the appearing of the man of sin referred to by the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. Paul’s statement, The mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way, corresponds perfectly with what we have said about the limiting of Satan’s present power.

This restrainer I am also starting to believe is taken to be the Holy Spirit. This also points up the fact that Satan is bound, having only such power as God grants him. Whenever God was ready, he removed the restrainer; that is, the Holy Spirit would be taken out of the way (2 Thess 2:7). Then, says Paul, the lawless one (man of sin) will be given full power to deceive them that perish (vs 1O)

Compare this teaching and order of events with John the Revelator’s teaching in Revelation 20. John says that after the millennium Satan, who has been chained during that period, will be loosed for a little time (vs. 3) and that he will then go about to deceive the nations. John says, in symbolic language (vs. 9), that fire from heaven will put down Satan and his followers.

A comparison of 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2 with Revelation 20 one cannot help but reveal that Paul and John both speak of the same events. And both passages agree entirely with many other clear passages of the Bible dealing with our Lord’s Parousia and events preceding it. So we see that the binding and loosing can only apply to the events before 70 AD.

And the term millennium. Are these literal years? Of course not. This is symbolic language and we cannot count out a literal 1,000 years. The figure 1,000 is used in the book of Revelation to indicate completeness. Insofar as the devil’s power to deceive was completely bound.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I agree with you that there will be a rapture of the church, then the 7 years of tribulation, then Christ comes back with the saints clothed in fine linen, then the millinial reign, satan will be loosed for a while for one last attempt on people's souls, and I look forward to Christ calling us up to be with Him forever! It gets closer every day! But I was just saying that this was a topic based on what a preterist view is. He has explained it and gave an opertuninty for people to really study and become firmly grounded in what they believe. I would say that I have matured in my knowledge by double checking what he posted and the Holy Spirit has given me knowledge about how God's Word never comes back void (Is. 55:11). Some people misinterpret scripture and I believe that God will use the verses delivered here to help others understand that time is short and Christ is going to come back and that the antchrist is going to come on the scene once we (the church) are gone. A great study to relate how the church is the bride of Jesus and how He has gone to prepare a place for us and will return to take us back to our new home (PRAISE GOD!!!), is to study a Jewish traditional wedding. Very interesting! BTW, read some info today on CNN under their technology section that relates to people implanting chips into their hands. Keep in mind Revelation 13:16, its getting very, very close. Keep looking up and praying for those not ready!

This thread was started because I told Snashin that he could not bring this doctrine to eschatology, where he first brought it, but that I would be happy to meet Him in the proper forum so that we could have a go at it; snashin disappeared, but I and Hidden Manna have not.

I believe the time is short since Jesus Christ came to earth, and that He is returning 'any minute'!
And then He will begin the signs and seasons, again, that Israel is the keeper of the oracles of.

I 'watch and pray' that I may be counted worthy to escape all these things that are coming on the face of the earth and stand before the Son of Man -and walk with Him in white, also.

I don't think there are any signs to watch for until the Church is taken out of the way; and I think the graves will be opened as a sign that the bodies are gone, just as they were on the first of firstfruits after the Passover, when Jesus raised the bodies of many who were dead and they were seen of many and walked about the city until He ascended on first of firstfruits -mid-morning- "leading captivity captive" -taking them as part of the first of firstfruits offering along with Himself, to appear before the Presence on high, as High Priest, the Firstborn of the new creation.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Here is a historical view of the 1000 years from a futurist and how it he see it as relating to the dark-ages when the Roman Catholic Church ruled the world politically.

I am expecting the literal End of the world in the future. I don’t know when it will happen, but this present world filled with sin and disobedience against God is not going to last forever. A couple of the Scripture passages that convinced me are 2 Peter 3:10-13. (10) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up. (11 and 12 further amplify verse 10). Also 1 Thes. 4:15-18. Verse 16 and 17 reveal which comes first: the rising of the dead or the rapture of the living (16) ” . . . And the dead in Christ will rise first; (17) then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.”

Also Matt 5:18, when Jesus says “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.” Also in Matt 24, where Jesus says in verse 35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.”

Don’t apologize for asking questions. Everybody should be ready to explain his or her views. I view the millennium as a past event. I said in my last post that Revelation Chap. 20 mentioned that Satan will be bound for a thousand years as the saints rule, and then Satan will be released to deceive the nations and gather them for battle. Incidentally, John next sees the great white throne we discussed in my last post. I view the millennium as a political Christian kingdom, a kingdom in this world, so it is not perfect, but a political kingdom anyway. There is another arm of the Christian kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, and that arm is perfect.

For three hundred years, the Christians had no political power. They were persecuted and killed. Then the Roman Empire became Christian. That’s the whole known civilized world at that time. That was the beginning of the Christian political kingdom. About a thousand years later, Christian people, themselves, destroyed the Christian political kingdom (the called the Holy Roman Empire). They also destroyed the unity of the Christian church. We are all caught up in our own bias about what happened, but if you step back away from planet earth and look at the events from a long distance, you can see that this disruption of the unity of Christianity has not served Christianity well. Ever since that disruption, Christians have been arguing with Christians, refuting practically everything rival Christian groups say.

Since that time, the unbelieving world has become more and more convinced that Christianity is not true. Today, many intellectual leaders, even in countries that were once Christian tell us that we are in the post-Christian era. They and many political leaders try to force Christian principles out of our governments. They unceasingly promote behavior not endorsed by Christianity, like homosexuality and abortion. They try to convince us that all religions are equally valid (without any consideration of what God might consider true). I would say our nations, today, really are deceived, and I think we are moving toward a confrontation between a very much-offended God and a world that no longer wants to obey God. I go into this in detail in my book. I’m convinced that it make more sense that other commentaries I’ve read on Revelation.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Was Jerusalem Mystery Babylon?





Would John have known this woman???

Is she the United Nations??? Rome??? Apostate Christianity??? How do the Scriptures describe her? And does her description fit that of any other in the Bible?

A Harlot

Rev 17:5
. . . and upon her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Isaiah 1:21
See how the faithful city [Jerusalem] has become a harlot!

Jeremiah 3:6-10
"Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. Because Israel’s immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense," declares the LORD.



Whose "Lovers" Will Strip Her and Ruin Her

Rev 17:16
The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Ezekiel 16:37-39
therefore I am going to gather all your [Israel's] lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness. I will sentence you to the punishment of women who commit adultery and who shed blood; I will bring upon you the blood vengeance of my wrath and jealous anger. Then I will hand you over to your lovers, and they will tear down your mounds and destroy your lofty shrines. They will strip you of your clothes and take your fine jewelry and leave you naked and bare.



Dressed in Purple and Scarlet and Gold

Rev 17:4 & Rev 18:15
The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries...
'Woe! Woe, O great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!

Exodus 28:1-43
They are to make these sacred garments for your brother Aaron and his sons, so they may serve me as priests. Have them use gold, and blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and fine linen. "Make the ephod of gold, and of blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and of finely twisted linen—the work of a skilled craftsman.

Jeremiah 4:30-31
What are you doing, O devastated one? Why dress yourself in scarlet and put on jewels of gold?
Why shade your eyes with paint? You adorn yourself in vain. Your lovers despise you; they seek your life. I hear a cry as of a woman in labor, a groan as of one bearing her first child - the cry of the Daughter of Zion...



A Great City Who Says She is No Widow


Rev 17:18 & Rev 18:7-8
The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth." In her heart she boasts, ‘I sit as queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn.’ Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine. She will be consumed by fire, for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Lamentations 1:1
How deserted lies the city, once so full of people! How like a widow is she, who once was great among the nations! She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave.



Drunk With the Blood of the Saints

Rev 17:6 & Rev 18:20&24
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus... In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth."
Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
God has judged her for the way she treated you.’"

Matthew 23:35
And so upon you [Jerusalem] will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth,

Luke 11:50-51
Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

1 Thes 2:14-15
". . . the Jews. Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men."



Desolations

Rev 18:23
"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived".

Matt 23:38
"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

Matthew 21:43
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Matthew 21:19
"And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, let no fruit grow on thee henceforward forever. And presently the fig tree withered away."

Conclusion

We must use the Bible to interpret the Bible biblically. . . not the political landscape of our world to try to expose Mystery Babylon. We are not to use the "signs of the times", the newspaper, or our favorite prophecy teachers to interpret Bible prophecy.

Jerusalem is only one according to Jesus that is responsible for all of the deaths of all the prophets and all of the apostles and all of the saints. Jesus said God's vengeance would come against that people, in that generation. They would be judged for spilling all the righteous blood shed on earth. In fact, if all the blood of all the prophets was against them (and the office of prophet no longer exists) then the Babylonian harlot of Revelation 18 no longer exists. Why did this have to happen???


"In that He says, A new [covenant], he has made the first [the Old Covenant] old. . . and is ready to vanish away"
Heb 8:13

The Old Covenant System began to vanish away with the sacrifice of Christ and was completely destroyed when Jesus came (in judgment) to destroy the temple as he promised. Because of this, we are now in the Kingdom of God's dear Son . . . never to be shaken or removed (Hebrews 12:28; Col 1:13) ! ! !

 

[yeshuasavedme]

No, Hidden Manna,
Jerusalem is not mystery Babylon.
Mystery Babylon is the false religious system began by Nimrod.
The beginning of his kingdom was Babylon.

The whole reason we speak in thousands of languages was to stop the mystery of iniquity that began with Nimrod & Co from it's plan of making 'a name' and actually entering heaven in unclean bodies; if Nimrod & Co had been allowed to accomplish their goal, then God would have had to destroy the creation before the Lamb was to have been the blood of atonement in the fullness of time.

As it is, the mystery of iniquity will have it's base set up in Irag for the final man of sin to reign from, as a king of Babylon, an Assyrian. That's how I understand the Word of God; but the mystery of iniquity has been in the world since Nimrod; but set back a good while because of the language confusion.


Vision of the Woman in a Basket
Zechariah 5 Then the angel who talked with me came out and said to me, "Lift your eyes now, and see what this is that goes forth."
6 So I asked, "What is it?" And he said, "It is a *basket that is going forth."
He also said, "This is their resemblance throughout the earth: 7 Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket"; 8 then he said, "This is Wickedness!" And he thrust her down into the basket, and threw the lead *cover over its mouth. 9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven.
10 So I said to the angel who talked with me, "Where are they carrying the basket?"
11 And he said to me, "To build a house for it in the land of *Shinar (Iraq); when it is ready, the basket will be set there on its base."

When the man of sin is revealed, then the LORD will destroy him with the brightness of His coming, and that man of sin is a king of Babylon -"of the seven" and is the eighth, who will set his throne in Israel.

In Isaiah 14, the king of Babylon is spoken to as satan, himself, who empowers the king of Babylon, and the battle is for the throne of the LORD on high and in Jerusalem. -This prophecy has not been fulfilled -yet.

Fall of the King of Babylon
3 It shall come to pass in the day the Lord gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:

"How the oppressor has ceased,
The golden* city ceased!
5 The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
The scepter of the rulers;
6 He who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke,
He who ruled the nations in anger,
Is persecuted and no one hinders.
7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet;
They break forth into singing.
8 Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you,
And the cedars of Lebanon,
Saying, 'Since you were cut down,
No woodsman has come up against us.'

9 "Hell from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:
'Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the sound of your stringed instruments;
The maggot is spread under you,
And worms cover you.'
The Fall of Lucifer

12 "How you are fallen from heaven,
O *Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

16 "Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
'Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?'

18 "All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave
Like an abominable branch,
Like the garment of those who are slain,
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial,
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people.
The brood of evildoers shall never be named.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children
Because of the iniquity of their fathers,
Lest they rise up and possess the land,
And fill the face of the world with cities."
Babylon Destroyed

22 "For I will rise up against them," says the Lord of hosts,
"And cut off from Babylon the name and remnant,
And offspring and posterity," says the Lord.
23 "I will also make it a possession for the porcupine,
And marshes of muddy water;
I will sweep it with the broom of destruction," says the Lord of hosts.
Assyria Destroyed

24 The Lord of hosts has sworn, saying,
"Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass,
And as I have purposed, so it shall stand:
25 That I will break the Assyrian in My land,
And on My mountains tread him underfoot.
Then his yoke shall be removed from them,
And his burden removed from their shoulders.
26 This is the purpose that is purposed against the whole earth,
And this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations.
27 For the Lord of hosts has purposed,
And who will annul it?
His hand is stretched out,
And who will turn it back?"

 

[bryanhilton]

Maybe I’ve entered an alternate reality, but the last time I checked, man, his and he, and one were singular nouns, your on another alternate reality then what the Bible really says.

Jesus refers to the antichrist as a person in Matthew 24:15 (from Bible Gateway):
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

 

[Hidden Manna]

Jesus refers to the antichrist as a person in Matthew 24:15 (from Bible Gateway):
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

This scripture does not have Jesus calling the one standing in the holy place the Antichrist. Please read it again, even those that person would have had the spirit of anti-chrsit. then show me where you get this so-called antichrist modern day world leader from.

NERO DEMANDED WORSHIP: Rev 13:5-8. Inscriptions have been found in Ephesus in which Nero is called "Almighty God" and "Savior." He and Caligula "abandoned all reserve" in promoting emperor worship - they were the only two who demanded divine honors while still alive. Nero claimed to be Apollo.


The real clincher to the whole story is found in Revelation 19:11-21, where it says the Beast was “seized and “thrown alive into the lake of fire” (vs. 20). Keep in mind that these events were to happen soon after Revelation was written (Rev. 1:1,3; 22:6,10). Was Nero or Domitian seized and thrown into the Lake of Fire shortly after Revelation was written? Did Rome make war against Jesus and His angelic hosts and get defeated shortly after the book was written (Rev. 19:19)? Did the Roman armies get “killed with the sword” and become a feast for all the vultures, shortly after Revelation was written (19:21)? The Roman persecution did not end shortly after the writing of Revelation, but the Jewish one did. Whoever the Beast is, he is soundly defeated here, his persecution against the church is crushed and his armies become plunder for the birds of prey to eat. Rome didn’t fall until the Fifth Century, and that’s a long time after Revelation was written! This sounds more like a Jewish Beast trying to persecute and destroy the church, but finally getting itself destroyed! The Romans were the vultures of this text (Rev. 19:21) who circled outside the Jewish walls watching the Jewish factions kill each other, waiting until they wore themselves out enough to become easy prey. This soon happened (in AD 70) and Jews glutted the world slave market. The Roman armies weren’t seized and “killed with the sword” in AD 70, nor in AD 96 either. Therefore, the Beast here (Rev. 19:19-21 cannot be a Roman one. It had to be Jewish!


Whether he is an individual or a group within the Jewish nation is a matter that will be left to future studies. John Bray has suggested the Jewish Zealot leader, John of Gischala. Others have suggested Menachem, who was a relative of Judas the Galilean who had stirred up troubles back in earlier days. He gathered a zealot band and attacked Masada, captured the fortress, seized the armaments and paraded through Jerusalem with them. Menachem put on the purple robes, proclaimed himself Messiah, and went into the Temple, but he was assassinated in the Temple and his army vaporized. There may have been rumors about his coming back to life, but I haven’t read of them so far. He never reappeared as far as Josephus recorded.

 

[bryanhilton]

This scripture does not have Jesus calling the one standing in the holy place the Antichrist. Please read it again, even those that person would have had the spirit of anti-chrsit. then show me where you get this so-called antichrist modern day world leader from.

NERO DEMANDED WORSHIP: Rev 13:5-8. Inscriptions have been found in Ephesus in which Nero is called "Almighty God" and "Savior." He and Caligula "abandoned all reserve" in promoting emperor worship - they were the only two who demanded divine honors while still alive. Nero claimed to be Apollo.


The real clincher to the whole story is found in Revelation 19:11-21, where it says the Beast was “seized and “thrown alive into the lake of fire” (vs. 20). Keep in mind that these events were to happen soon after Revelation was written (Rev. 1:1,3; 22:6,10). Was Nero or Domitian seized and thrown into the Lake of Fire shortly after Revelation was written? Did Rome make war against Jesus and His angelic hosts and get defeated shortly after the book was written (Rev. 19:19)?

LOL! Sweet! A question game! Okay here we go: Did nero have a false prophet that when in the presence of this prophet was he able to perform miracles? Was nero able to cause the world to take a mark in his right hand or his forhead? I thought that preterists believe that the New Testament prophecy is not physical prophecy? Then why do you use nero as an example since he was a physical person? And in an earlier post you said that the antichrist was many people!

 

[Hidden Manna]

LOL! Sweet! A question game! Okay here we go: Did nero have a false prophet that when in the presence of this prophet was he able to perform miracles? Was nero able to cause the world to take a mark in his right hand or his forhead? I thought that preterists believe that the New Testament prophecy is not physical prophecy? Then why do you use nero as an example since he was a physical person? And in an earlier post you said that the antichrist was many people!

The Beast is a Nation

Nero was the leader of that nation until he died in 68AD the Titus was the leader

The false prophet if you read the post on the Beast from the Land were jewish leader who rejected the Messiah in general. Re-read that posting and read some of Josphus's writings who recorded the events around the end of the Jewish age.

And read or re-read the Mark of the Beast, your questions tell me you did not read them or you totally do not understand what they were about. thats you problem not mine and I feel like I'm wasting my time with you.

 

[Hidden Manna]

No, Hidden Manna,
Jerusalem is not mystery Babylon.
Mystery Babylon is the false religious system began by Nimrod.
The beginning of his kingdom was Babylon.

The whole reason we speak in thousands of languages was to stop the mystery of iniquity that began with Nimrod & Co from it's plan of making 'a name' and actually entering heaven in unclean bodies; if Nimrod & Co had been allowed to accomplish their goal, then God would have had to destroy the creation before the Lamb was to have been the blood of atonement in the fullness of time.

As it is, the mystery of iniquity will have it's base set up in Irag for the final man of sin to reign from, as a king of Babylon, an Assyrian. That's how I understand the Word of God; but the mystery of iniquity has been in the world since Nimrod; but set back a good while because of the language confusion.

The Woman sitting on the Scarlet Beast.

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication." he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. And on her forehead a name was written: (Revelation 17:1-5)

In order to appreciate the biblical account of the women who sits on the back of the beast, we must first understand the historical setting and relationship between National Israel and the Roman Empire.. (John 11:45-48; 19:15) At first Christianity was seen by Rome as just another sect of Judaism. The messianic Jewish Christians "found favor with all the people." (Acts 2:47) The gospel had a powerful impact upon the Roman Empire before Nero began his persecution of the Jewish Christian. In Phil. 4:22, we learn of saints in "Caesar's household," which at that time would be Nero's household. Evidently, the rapid spreading of Christianity in the Roman provinces, and especially Rome itself, was a primary factor for the zealous Jews to get Nero to war against the Christians.

The Jewish leaders who were zealous for the law came down hard on some of apostles fresh from the events of Jesus' crucifixion, but eventually left them alone. (Acts 3-4). Then came Stephen's radical "Anti-Temple" message that lead to his martyrdom (Acts 6:13-14, ch. 7). This liberalizing influence lead to "a great persecution" that "arose against the church in Jerusalem" which caused all to be scattered throughout the region, "except the apostles" (Acts 8:1). This is insightful and significant because it reveals that after Jesus' crucifixion there were still Jews zealous to be under the covenant of the law. (Galatians 4:21)

No wonder Stephen's radical "Anti-Temple" message provoked their anger. The destruction of the Temple represented a major crisis for Judaism because of all the Temple had signified for them. It meant the Presence of God (the shekinah of glory), the place of the daily sacrifice (the cultus), Israel's place in election etc. No temple, no messianic age.

The liberalizing message of Christ totally enraged the growing hatred of the zealous Jews which made a conflict between them, and those believed in Christ. (Acts 4:13-21) They were treated as apostasies from the old covenant of the law and Judaism. The hostility grew within the Jewish community against the Jewish Christians until they chased and persecuted Paul from town to town (Acts 13-50). These saints were persecuted and treated as if they were the (filth of the word). (1 Corinthians 4:11-12)

So the older brother (the Jews who were zealous for the law) hated and persecuted their "younger brothers the Jewish Christians." (Galatians 4:28-29)

Since it was unlawful for the Jews to put anyone to death while under the authority of Rome they gave their allegiance to the beast Nero by convincing him that Christianity was not another sect of Judaism but had another (King) in order to stomp out Christianity. (Luke 19: 14; 19:15; Matthew 27:11-36) This allegiance between the Jews and the Roman Empire is pictured by the Apostle John as a woman sitting on a scarlet beast (Revelation 17:3) Rome was one of the world authority and had the ships, armies, and men to stomp out Christianity where ever it may pop up. So National Israel gave their allegiance to the beast in order to use Him.

In her allegiance with the beast National Israel made a daily sacrificial offering to him and placed a image of him in the temple. National Israel was as a woman married to the Lord, had sworn faith and love in all things to here rightful husband, but as was so often the case in Ezekiel 16:32-35 even now in the day of her redemption and visitation, she has shamefully forsaken and rejected her husband in whoring after strangers. The once and faithful city became an harlot (Isa. 1:21), and the habitation of devils (Rev. 18:2)

It was in 64 A.D. that Nero began his persecution of Christians from Rome. The approximate 3 1/2 years of persecution on the Christians was from 64-68 A.D.

This battle was an effort on the part of National Israel to establish her claims as the true Israel of God John 8:33 and to show that she was the queen and no widow (Revelation 18:2) She would now destroy the church by making a allegiance with the (beast) and establish herself in Palestine as a power of the world renown.

 

[bryanhilton]

removed

 

[Hidden Manna]

Was nero able to cause the world to take a mark in his right hand or his forhead? I thought that preterists believe that the New Testament prophecy is not physical prophecy? Then why do you use nero as an example since he was a physical person? And in an earlier post you said that the antichrist was many people!

Antichrist is the spirit of anti-christ, the beast is a nation and the lead was Nero then Titus for the first beast which was rome.

the second Beast was apostate Israel, they made in image to the first Beast by being conformed into Romes image.


Revelation 20: 4 and 5
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

As you know we believe the saints who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God were the first century christians.

The Bible also says in Rev 13:16-18 “And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” I will address the number of the beast a little later.

But what was the mark of the beast? The first thing we must understand about Revelation is that it is a book composed almost entirely of symbols that a first century Jew would have found immediately recognizable.

These symbols were used before in such books as Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah. When a “mark” is spoken of, it should bring to mind a previous reference to a mark, found in another place in the Old Testament.

The “mark” received upon the right hand or the forehead, is a Jewish typological picture (as is virtually all of Revelation), not to a “physical” mark on a persons body, but to the fact that in Jewish thought form (which is where John was coming from). But how did one, receive “the mark” and what did it mean in Jewish thought?

It means that those who “took the mark” willingly, on their “right hand” (the Jewish picture of action and power), did whatever they did under the control of Rome, and they acted in accordance with that ungodly religious system (Pantheism).

The “mark” on the foreheads, was referring to the fact that Rome and their ideologies/ religions etc, were controlling the “minds and thoughts” of those who willingly followed this mind set.

A perfect picture of this action is seen in John. Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, Behold you King!” But they cried out, Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!” Pilate said to them, Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priest answered, “We have no king (but Caesar! John 19:14-15. This is the meaning of the “mark of the beast.”

Another good example is found in John 11:47-48 were it says: Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him. But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did. Then the chief priest and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, What shall we do’ For this Man works many signs. “If we let Him alone like this everyone will believe in Him, (And the Romans will come and take away both place and nation).

It must also be remembered that during that period the Jews united with Caesar in the matter of Christian persecution, throughout the Roman Empire. And during this period of active persecution Israel offered a daily sacrifice for Nero until the beginning of the war, is a well tested fact of history. While Nero never ruled from Jerusalem in person, it was nevertheless his seat in the sense of the Jews having given him their worship for a season. In this manner he is said to sit in the temple of God, opposing and exalting himself above all that is called God (2 Thess. 2:3-4)

Since John was a Jew he used numerous Jewish allusions out of the Old Testament in his book of Revelation. John writes in Greek, he thinks in Hebrew, and the thought has naturally affected the vehicle of express.” The same language of John’s Revelation when a “mark” is spoken of, should bring to mind a previous reference to a “mark” found in Ezekiel 9:3-6. In that context, Jerusalem was also about to be besieged and destroyed (by the Babylonians). The Lord commanded an angel to place “a mark on the foreheads” of those that lamented the wickedness of the city. This angel is described as having “a writer’s inkhorn at his side” (9:3), with which he was to mark the righteous. It is clear from the context that this was not to be taken literally, as if an angel needed to carry a pen around with him and an inkhorn in which to dip it.

This was a figurative (symbolic) way of showing that there was a specific class of people within the doomed city that were being set apart for preservation (9:6). In Revelation, a similar “mark” is placed on those whom God wishes to preserve (7:3, 14:1).

A “mark” is also received by those loyal to the beast, one which sets them apart for destruction (14:9-11). The mark is an emblem of ownership (John 19:14-15.)

We must allow Scripture to interpret itself whenever possible. He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or[6] the name of the beast, or the number of his name. (Revelation 13:17)

The apostate Jews knew that the Christians would not and could not answer “Caesar!” Yet, only those who proclaimed Caesar as Lord could buy or sell. Paul also mentions a little about these times.

Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place; and labor, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the off scouring of all things unto this day. I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
(1 Corinthians 4: 11-14)

 

[Hidden Manna]

erased

 

[bryanhilton]

I posted this because you called me chump, a liar, etc. You didn't hit a nerve, I am one of the most laid back people you would ever meet (well, if you ever met me ) Anyways. I don't get mad easy man. I called you dude because like I told you before, I call EVERYONE dude! It's part of my language man! I am sorry you don't like me or have bitterness towards me. Also, I am not your enemy, I haven't ever been your enemy, nor ever will be since we both accept Christ as our Savior! I even stook up for ya a couple posts back and you still want to critisize me? Again, all I have to say is wow.

edit: I would also like to publicly apologize to you hidden for posting a private message on the board. I admit it was not right for me to do so but I do admit I was taken WAY back by you calling me a chump. Please forgive me.