Was God's choosing Israel an act of aparteid...

[Carl Emerson]

I broke down Paul's message to distinguish between the Elect Jews in brackets and non-Elect Jews in parenthesis of the present time (when Paul wrote the letter).

1. But what saith the answer of God unto him? [I have reserved to myself seven thousand men], who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

[Old Testament typology for the Jewish Remnant aka Jewish elect]

2. Even so then [at this present time also there is a remnant] according to the [election of grace.]

3. What then? (Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for) [but the election hath obtained it,] (and the rest were blinded.)

4. [And so all** Israel shall be saved**:] as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

5. (And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.)


Romans 11:4-5,7,26,23

** Remnant & Gentile believers = Israel Of God

Ok understand your position better.

Can you comment then on the question in the OP...

The choosing of a race of people to bring the Law and the Prophets, become a nation, conquor other Nations and to be blessed above all other peoples.

Was this action on Gods part apartheid ?

 

[Ephesians321]

Ok understand your position better.

Can you comment then on the question in the OP...

The choosing of a race of people to bring the Law and the Prophets, become a nation, conquor other Nations and to be blessed above all other peoples.

Was this action on Gods part apartheid ?

The secular, political, Zionist state of Israel is not Biblical Israel. It fulfilled not one single prophecy. There is no more circumcision. There is no more Temple cultus and sacrifices. There is no more national Day of Atonement. Biblical Judaism has not been properly and lawfully observed for 1,953 years or more. Biblical Judaism died in A.D.70. The Romans destroyed all of the genealogical records in the Temple. Today's Judaism is a completely different religion than Biblical Judaism and now based wholly upon man's traditions, repentance, and good works. So called modern Judaism was forced to reinvent itself under Rabbi Yohannan ben Zakkai in order to stay relevant and survive.

Yohanan ben Zakkai - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And God never promised Israel He would regather Israel in a state of unbelief and rebellion anyways. It was always conditional upon their national faithful repentence and obedience.

In Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28-29, we find God’s conditions for Israel to dwell in the land, and the conditions for restoration to the land when/if they should be expelled. Simply stated, Yahweh said that if Israel obeyed the Mosaic Covenant faithfully, she could dwell in the land. However, “If you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments...I will do this to you: I will appoint terror over you... I will punish you seven times over...I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it. I will scatter you among the nations and draw a sword after you...those who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands” (Leviticus 26:14-34). The condition for restoration to the land is then given, “But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also walked contrary to Me, then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Abraham will I remember, I will remember the land” (Leviticus 26:40f). In other words, if, and when, Israel repented, then and only then would Yahweh return them to the land. There is not a single word to hint that He would reward their unrighteousness by re-gathering them to the land in their disobedience. The same is true of Deuteronomy 28-30. Over and over the Lord of Hosts threatened them with captivity and scattering if they violated the Covenant (Deuteronomy 28:36-37; 45-49; 28:64). What is the only condition for restoration mentioned in the entirety of the text? It is given in chapter 30:1-10. Three times in the text, Yahweh said that when the plagues and dispersion for sin came upon them, and they would call to mind the Covenant “among all the nations where the Lord your God drives you, and you return to the Lord your God and obey his voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children...that the Lord your God will bring you back from captivity” (Deuteronomy 30:1-3). Repentance and obedience to the Mosaic Covenant were the conditions for return.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well you didn't answer the question.

Abraham was chosen by God.

Isaac was chosen by God.

Jacob was chosen by God.

Hence the people of Israel were chosen by God.

So was God choosing to favour one Nation over another wrong ?? Was it apartheid ???

Lets just focus on this one issue for starters...

 

[Bobber]

Can you suggest any other Nation to whom God said this...

Genesis 12:3
And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

I'd say that was given to obedient Israel. I think it's clear Israel was cursed (and I mean that term as they opened the door for other nations or people's to treat them unkindly) They were taken into captivity to Babylon for hundreds of years and yes then blessed of God who brought them back to the land.....then falling

from obedience again the Romans took over their nation (an occupational force) paying taxes to them. Then we know what happened in 70 AD. So Israel was out of their covenant blessings promised to an obedient people. Deut 28 states they could have been the head and not the tail above only and not beneath.

 

[Bobber]

Well you didn't answer the question.

Abraham was chosen by God.

Isaac was chosen by God.

Jacob was chosen by God.

Hence the people of Israel were chosen by God.

So was God choosing to favour one Nation over another wrong ?? Was it apartheid ???

Lets just focus on this one issue for starters...

That would all depend on what he is favoring them for. They were chosen to bring forth a nation where that one nation would be the lighthouse to the world to share the love of God. Israel was meant to be the home base of operations for the gospel to go forth......so it's not just for the Jews but for the Gentiles as well. So that doesn't mean he loved and individual Jew more than a Gentile.

 

[Carl Emerson]

That would all depend on what he is favoring them for. They were chosen to bring forth a nation where that one nation would be the lighthouse to the world to share the love of God. Israel was meant to be the home base of operations for the gospel to go forth......so it's not just for the Jews but for the Gentiles as well. So that doesn't mean he loved and individual Jew more than a Gentile.

Of course not... but modern thinking rejects God's right to choose a Nation and bless them for a purpose.

 

[Bobber]

Of course not... but modern thinking rejects God's right to choose a Nation and bless them for a purpose.

Which raises another question if you think about it. What would Israel actually have become if they were always faithful to God. No Babylonian captivity.....no Roman occupation......no 70 AD ....you read through Duet 28 what God says they could have been and we say wow. From what I see they would have been the greatest world power

 

[Semper-Fi]

Was God sinning in choosing one nation over another ?

Not at all, it is God's heritage.

Job 31:2
For what portion of God is there from above?
and what inheritance of the Almighty from on high?

Psalms 127:3
Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord:
and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

Psalms 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord;
and the people whom he hath chosen for [his own inheritance].

1 Kings 8:51 For they be thy people, and thine inheritance,
which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of
the furnace of iron:

Deuteronomy 4:20 But the Lord hath taken you, and brought
you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to
be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

1 Kings 8:53 For thou didst separate them from among all the
people of the earth, to be thine inheritance, as thou spakest
by the hand of Moses thy servant, when thou broughtest our
fathers out of Egypt, O Lord God.

Isaiah 19:25 Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying,
Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands,
and [Israel mine inheritance].

Psalms 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful rain, whereby
thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary.

Psalms 74:2 Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased
of old; the rod of thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed;
this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt.

Psalms 94:5 (KJV)
They break in pieces thy people, O Lord,
and afflict thine heritage.

Psalms 94:14 (KJV)
For the Lord will not cast off his people,
neither will he forsake his inheritance.

Ezekiel 22:16 (KJV)
And thou shalt take thine inheritance in thyself in the
sight of the heathen, and thou shalt know that I am the Lord.
-

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it ,
Why hast thou made me thus? Romans 9:20-21, Isaiah 29:16

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump
to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
x

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name;
and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole
earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5 (KJV)

O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD .
Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand,
O house of Israel. Jeremiah 18:6 (KJV)

x

why? because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge,
my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
-
“By myself have I sworn, saith the [Eternal], for because thou hast done this thing,
and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and
in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand
which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gates of his enemies.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Here's whats weird...

In our day the Nation of Israel has developed in science and commerce at lightening speed evoking jealousy among it's neighbours.

But wait - wasn't the Church meant to evoke jealousy from the Jews ???

What happened?

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Was God sinning in choosing one nation over another ?

From what I understand -
an apartheid intends to divide people by race, cut some people off from benefits and has no intentions of "blessing" them.
"God chosing people" is more like god deciding where to put his message, preparation and preservation for the blessing of everyone later on.

So I'd say we are talking about two different animals here.

But I don't know very much about the bible or apartheid.

 

[Bobber]

Here's whats weird...

In our day the Nation of Israel has developed in science and commerce at lightening speed evoking jealousy among it's neighbours.

But wait - wasn't the Church meant to evoke jealousy from the Jews ???

What happened?

Evoking jealousy because of he church has to do with spiritual things that they see God is really working with the other with the power of God and the presence of God and that the church actually have the salvation power of God....and they don't. And not sure what you mean Israel has made such advancements over others with commerce etc....they've done well but so much more than others or the major world powers?

 

[ViaCrucis]

For the sake of clarity:

God choosing a people or a person is not apartheid.

Apartheid is a system by which a group is discriminated against and faces segregation.

When Jews were forced to live in ghettos throughout parts of Europe for centuries--that would be an example of apartheid.

In the United States segregation was a form of apartheid, both systemically such as with formal segregation through Jim Crow laws, as well as informal segregation through things like redlining.

Apartheid was not part of God's choosing Israel; nor did God instruct apartheid to be practiced in Israel--the resident alien was to be treated with the utmost respect and hospitality, provided for with proper welfare. As God, through the Torah, instituted Israel as a welfare state that provided for the poor, hungry, the widow, orphan, and the resident alien.

There's simply no comparing ancient Israel with modern Israel, they are entirely different things, one is God's institution and the other is not. One was created to be a light among the nations, the other is just another nation.

Jews, by virtue of their Jewishness, still have a connection with ancient Israel--they are Israelites by virtue of their fathers and mothers (Romans 3:1-4, Romans 11:28-29). Modern Israel, however is immaterial and irrelevant. God's faithfulness to the Jewish people is shown not through the modern state of Israel, but Christ and the Gospel. He has not rejected, He has not neglected, He has not forsaken--even though Jews (and I speak here of non-Christian Jews) are unbelieving, God has not turned His back nor forsaken nor neglected. But God's faithfulness can never be moved away from the Gospel toward something else. In the same way, in former times, He did not neglect nor forsake nor not shine His face upon the Gentiles--for the inclusion of the Gentiles into God's House, into the House of Jacob, the household of faith that is the Church was always His intention. For this reason Israel was to be a light unto the Gentiles, and that light came into the world through the Virgin Mary, His name is Jesus, He is the Light of the World.

God's faithfulness to the Jewish people, like His faithfulness to all people, is found in Jesus Christ.

For is it not written, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek"?

Perhaps this is where the Lutheran view of election may be helpful, in contrast with the Calvinist view of election.

For election does not mean God chooses some and not others. Election means God has chosen us. The Calvinist, reasonably says, "Well if God chose some, then it must mean that He didn't choose others; and if He chose some and not others then salvation is for the elect and not the others; therefore it must be that God has passed over, or even willed that some remain reprobate." The Lutheran responds by saying, "No, the word does not say God has overlooked, passed over, or willed that any should not be saved, on the contrary, it is written that God will the salvation of all"

Election does not mean the rejection of others; for God desires the salvation of all.

Understanding this, then, the Faithful Remnant is not the rejection of un-believing Jews--for the "gifts and callings of God are irrevocable". And yet, nevertheless, there is no salvation apart from Christ.

God, therefore, remains faithful; God, therefore, will continue to have mercy on whom He will have mercy; God will, therefore, be merciful to all having consigned all to disobedience. God will remain "the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe". In a universalist way? No, but through Christ in accordance with God's will.

How, then, will all these things add up? God alone knows.

But for us, we preach the word of God and not chase after mirages in the desert enticing us away from Christ our refuge. We confess that all men repent, believe the Good News, and we welcome them in through the waters of Holy Baptism. For here in the Church Christ gives Himself through His Table, and His flesh is true food and His blood true drink.

On the Day of Judgment Christ shall judge. He alone shall judge the quick and the dead.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

they see God is really working with the other with the power of God and the presence of God and that the church actually have the salvation power of God.

Where are they seeing this ???

 

[Ephesians321]

State of Israel is not God's chosen.

There is no more Jew and Gentlie.

There is no more circumcision (required to take possession of the land: no circumcision = no land, no Temple).

God promised he would never regather the Israelites back into the land in a state of rebellion and disbelief, only in a state of repentance and obedience. State of Israel was founded by agnostics and atheists. Agnostics and atheists make up the majority of the population in Israel today. Israel is the most liberally progressive country in that whole region.

There is no more Law. Biblical Judaism has not been observed properly and lawfully since the 1st Century, its age officially ended in A.D. 70. Modern Judaism is not Biblical Judaism... AT ALL!

God also promised while Israel remained in a Covenant relationship with him and obedient to the Lord that he would protect them from their enemies on their Feast Days. The State of Israel has been attacked by their enemies more than once on their Feast Days most notably the Yom Kippur War (1973).

 

[ViaCrucis]

Here's whats weird...

In our day the Nation of Israel has developed in science and commerce at lightening speed evoking jealousy among it's neighbours.

We can boil a lot of that down to a history of western imperialism and complex socio-economic and geopolitical reasons. Just take the history of modern Persia/Iran as an example. Or more recently, the history of Iraq. Compare nations in the MIddle East which the West shows favoritism toward and their conditions, with those nations which don't.

Further, as far as value-judging goes, technological progress (a benefit of being wealthy) is not an indication of a nation's goodness.

But wait - wasn't the Church meant to evoke jealousy from the Jews ???

What happened?

A history of Christian anti-semitism hasn't helped the Church being a city on a hill when it comes to Christian-Jewish relations.

Also, Israel being good at science and commerce is completely irrelevant as far as the jealousy St. Paul speaks.

The Nation of Israel is not the Jewish people.
The jealousy Paul speaks of refers to religious and spiritual things.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

We can boil a lot of that down to a history of western imperialism and complex socio-economic and geopolitical reasons. Just take the history of modern Persia/Iran as an example. Or more recently, the history of Iraq. Compare nations in the MIddle East which the West shows favoritism toward and their conditions, with those nations which don't.

Further, as far as value-judging goes, technological progress (a benefit of being wealthy) is not an indication of a nation's goodness.



A history of Christian anti-semitism hasn't helped the Church being a city on a hill when it comes to Christian-Jewish relations.

Also, Israel being good at science and commerce is completely irrelevant as far as the jealousy St. Paul speaks.

The Nation of Israel is not the Jewish people.
The jealousy Paul speaks of refers to religious and spiritual things.

-CryptoLutheran

So the Gathering predicted by Jeremiah has not yet happened?

1. Jeremiah 23:3
   “Then I Myself will gather the remnant of My flock out of all the countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their pasture, and they will be fruitful and multiply.
   
   
2. Jeremiah 31:8
   Behold, I am bringing them from the north country, And I will gather them from the remote parts of the earth, Among them those who are blind and those who limp, The pregnant woman and she who is in labor, together; They will return here as a great assembly.
   
   
3. Jeremiah 32:37
   Behold, I am going to gather them out of all the lands to which I have driven them in My anger, in My wrath, and in great indignation; and I will bring them back to this place and have them live in safety.

 

[Ephesians321]

So the Gathering predicted by Jeremiah has not yet happened?

1. Jeremiah 23:3
   “Then I Myself will gather the remnant of My flock out of all the countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their pasture, and they will be fruitful and multiply.
   
   
2. Jeremiah 31:8
   Behold, I am bringing them from the north country, And I will gather them from the remote parts of the earth, Among them those who are blind and those who limp, The pregnant woman and she who is in labor, together; They will return here as a great assembly.
   
   
3. Jeremiah 32:37
   Behold, I am going to gather them out of all the lands to which I have driven them in My anger, in My wrath, and in great indignation; and I will bring them back to this place and have them live in safety.

Why would God gather the Jews after the flesh anymore? What would be the point? Circumcision does not exist, the Mosaic Covenent does not exist, Jewish exclusiveness does not exist. Those that are in Christ are the true heirs of Abraham now and NO ONE ELSE. God is now gathering the true heirs of Abraham into his Kingdom in Heaven in Christ. Just because someone is born or identifies as a Jew and attempts to live by 613 laws of non-biblical Judaism doesn't mean they are by default the Chosen People. Christian Zionists and Dispensationalists have "perverted" hang-ups over the Jews and the State of Israel.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So the Gathering predicted by Jeremiah has not yet happened?

1. Jeremiah 23:3
   “Then I Myself will gather the remnant of My flock out of all the countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their pasture, and they will be fruitful and multiply.
   
   
2. Jeremiah 31:8
   Behold, I am bringing them from the north country, And I will gather them from the remote parts of the earth, Among them those who are blind and those who limp, The pregnant woman and she who is in labor, together; They will return here as a great assembly.
   
   
3. Jeremiah 32:37
   Behold, I am going to gather them out of all the lands to which I have driven them in My anger, in My wrath, and in great indignation; and I will bring them back to this place and have them live in safety.

These are about the return from the Babylonian Captivity. So, yes, that did happen. It happened 2400 years ago.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Why would God gather the Jews after the flesh anymore? What would be the point? Circumcision does not exist, the Mosaic Covenent does not exist, Jewish exclusiveness does not exist. Those that are in Christ are the true heirs of Abraham now and NO ONE ELSE. God is now gathering the true heirs of Abraham into his Kingdom in Heaven in Christ. Just because someone is born or identifies as a Jew and attempts to live by 613 laws of non-biblical Judaism doesn't mean they are by default the Chosen People. Christian Zionists and Dispensationalists have "perverted" hang-ups over the Jews and the State of Israel.

Why does He gather us while we are yet sinners?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Why would God gather the Jews after the flesh anymore? What would be the point? Circumcision does not exist, the Mosaic Covenent does not exist, Jewish exclusiveness does not exist. Those that are in Christ are the true heirs of Abraham now and NO ONE ELSE. God is now gathering the true heirs of Abraham into his Kingdom in Heaven in Christ. Just because someone is born or identifies as a Jew and attempts to live by 613 laws of non-biblical Judaism doesn't mean they are by default the Chosen People. Christian Zionists and Dispensationalists have "perverted" hang-ups over the Jews and the State of Israel.

So if the Jews experience a massive repentance you will still write them off ?